# Chapter Select, [[S0E1 - The Last of Us]] Transcript
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Hello everybody, welcome to Chapter Select, a podcast where we bounce back and forth between series of games exploring their evolution, design, and legacy.
*00:00*
For this season zero, we're covering The Last of Us, parts one and two.
*00:09*
We thought it'd be a good, quick pair to explore and give us an outlet to talk about the impeding sequel.
*00:13*
My name is Max Roberts, and I am joined by my very longtime podcasting friend, Logan Moore.
*00:18*
Hi Max.
*00:25*
Good to be back doing one-on-one podcasts with you after what if we stop doing this for like two years?
*00:26*
Two years?
*00:33*
I I ch I burned it all down two years ago?
*00:33*
I don't know.
*00:36*
Yeah.
*00:37*
We were both getting kinda tired of it, I think, to a degree.
*00:37*
I don't know.
*00:40*
But but I always get blamed.
*00:41*
Yeah, you do.
*00:43*
For those that may not be familiar with our podcasting legacy, which would not be surprising, we did a video game news podcast called Millennial Gaming Speak for Pow.
*00:44*
Two years, Logan?
*00:54*
It's like 130 episodes, so whatever that shook out to be.
*00:55*
Yeah.
*00:58*
Yeah, sure.
*00:59*
Uh that's what we did.
*01:00*
Logan is the managing editor over at dualshockers.
*01:01*
com.
*01:06*
Um at least as of when we're recording this.
*01:06*
I don't know how As of when we're recording this very episode here in um
*01:09*
What is today?
*01:14*
Today is June 11th, 2020.
*01:15*
The PS5 was revealed a couple of hours ago.
*01:18*
So we're coming off of that high for a bit.
*01:20*
Um but tonight we're here to talk about The Last of Us.
*01:23*
Or I guess technically now the Last of Us part one.
*01:27*
I mean it's just the last of us.
*01:30*
No one calls the Godfather the Godfather Part One.
*01:31*
It's so weird because Naughty Dog does refer to it.
*01:34*
Sometimes as The Last of Us Part One.
*01:38*
Like officially.
*01:40*
I guess video games are a little bit different though in that scenario because people do retroactively confer refer to them as
*01:41*
So-and-so one, just like I don't know, even with the PlayStation, like the original PlayStation console is now PlayStation 1 to everybody here.
*01:47*
I don't know.
*01:54*
What about the Xbox?
*01:55*
I I guess that I guess people yeah, people call that OG Xbox because you can't call it Xbox.
*01:57*
I was gonna say, wait, people don't call it Xbox One.
*02:02*
Why is that the reason?
*02:05*
And duh clicked in my head.
*02:06*
So the idea very quickly of this show is that we play the game and then talk about it and then we're gonna bounce to the most recent release, play it, and then kind of bounce back and forth between those times until we meet in the middle.
*02:08*
Um, so with The Last of Us that's super easy.
*02:20*
We just have to play two games.
*02:23*
And that's also super easy because we both replayed The Last of Us before The Last of Us Part Two release on June nineteenth.
*02:24*
2020.
*02:31*
So, very quickly, just a brief history of The Last of Us itself.
*02:32*
It was originally released for the PlayStation 3.
*02:37*
It launched on June 14th, 2013.
*02:39*
Kind of the tail end.
*02:42*
of the uh PS3's life.
*02:44*
It actually came out like a week after E3 that year and the PS4 had its big reveal, so very close to the end.
*02:46*
It was later remastered for PS4 on July 29, 2014.
*02:55*
Both versions were developed by Naughty Dog, the uh first-party studio for Sony.
*02:59*
Creative director was Neil Druckmann the game director was Bruce Stray.
*03:05*
The two of them were responsible for Uncharted 2, and then they split off to make The Last of Us inside of Not
*03:08*
And then um the other big kind of name I thought was important to mention was Gustavo Santoya, the composer for the game, uh, because the soundtrack in this game
*03:15*
as I'm sure we'll discuss, is pretty incredible.
*03:23*
Um it reviewed super duper well, lots of tens.
*03:26*
It had the most Game of the Year awards, and it's even won a couple of Game of the Decade Awards because that's how old it is
*03:30*
When I think we both probably played around the same time, but when like what's your history with the game?
*03:37*
So it's funny because you mentioned it like the
*03:44*
The first the original game on PS3 came out like a week after E3.
*03:47*
And it's funny because I totally missed I think most of E3 2013.
*03:50*
I just was like wasn't paying attention because
*03:55*
Uh I went to Bonnaroo that year, which is a music festival that happens each year in uh Nashville, Tennessee.
*03:58*
Or it's not it's like near Nashville.
*04:04*
I can't remember exactly where it's at.
*04:07*
Um
*04:08*
Can't remember that little town.
*04:09*
Anyway, uh I went to Bonru that year and it coincided with it Bonru is typically the second week of June, so it typically overlaps with E3.
*04:10*
Um, so I didn't I missed all of E3 and I went to Bonaru and that's a like a Wednesday to Sunday affair.
*04:19*
But when I got home on I think The Last of Us, so it came out on the 14th
*04:26*
I think it may have come out that Friday.
*04:31*
I don't know if you y you want to look up what day of the week that came out.
*04:34*
But I all I remember is that I got home
*04:38*
And then the first thing I did after falling asleep in my bed for a few hours was I woke up, and it was like in the middle of the afternoon, I ran out of Best Buy and I grabbed the Last of Us and then I came home.
*04:41*
and began playing that game for like the next couple days.
*04:53*
And so yeah, that was when I first played it.
*04:56*
Um Yeah, and it was I don't know.
*04:58*
Like I I think a lot of our conversation, some of the things I want to touch on here, you can talk about your own experience.
*05:01*
But uh great game in a mo in the moment.
*05:06*
Um the Swan Song for the PS3 obviously, but it still uh surprisingly holds up like crazy well to this day.
*05:09*
Um everything that resonated with me really the first time still resonates with me now.
*05:15*
Um
*05:20*
We can get into that more in a bit though.
*05:20*
Um I assume you were there day one on June 14th, though, playing it while I was at a Tom Petty concert.
*05:23*
I I was there on launch day.
*05:31*
I actually, in hindsight, probably one of my big video game like collecting mistakes, regrets, I did have an opportunity to pre-order the post-pandemic edition.
*05:33*
But I wanted the art book instead of the statue.
*05:44*
Which if anyone knows me now, I would much rather have a statue than an art book.
*05:47*
Um and I also didn't know the art book would be available separately.
*05:53*
Um
*05:56*
Now the post-pandemic edition is worth well over a thousand dollars.
*05:58*
Unboxed.
*06:01*
What the heck?
*06:02*
Unboxed two?
*06:03*
Yeah, because it was only available at GameStop.
*06:05*
It was like a GameStop exclusive collector's it was a mess.
*06:08*
I forgot where they used to do that a lot.
*06:11*
'Cause that used to be way more common, didn't it?
*06:13*
Yeah, I feel like that's gone away a little bit more over the past few years.
*06:21*
Thank God.
*06:24*
Um but I was there day one.
*06:25*
I had actually Reese like
*06:27*
I adjust or was getting ready to graduate high school.
*06:30*
Um either the ceremony was like that week or the week after, but I I was out of school at the time.
*06:33*
So it was the best time for this game to come out for me.
*06:40*
So I went to bet uh to GameStop that morning, like picked up the game, uh came home, played the game, broad daylight, which probably isn't the best setting to play this game, and got through the intro of this game with with
*06:42*
um Sarah's death and was in Boston and then my PS3 crashed and I lost my save.
*06:56*
So I actually had to go through the intro back to back twice, like up front
*07:04*
Which was not pleasant, like emotionally.
*07:09*
Um but then the game was smooth after that.
*07:13*
But yeah, I was there day one and um
*07:16*
I forget how many days it didn't take me very long, day days wise to beat it.
*07:19*
I think it was done by that weekend.
*07:23*
The thing I w
*07:26*
The to chime back in the thing I remember most about this game, and like this is it was weird that I was kind of in this I would say twenty thirteen was weird because the first half of it I was like
*07:27*
I would still I was paying a lot of attention to games at the time.
*07:36*
I mean I always have, but I wasn't following stuff as like closely as I do now.
*07:39*
I mean now it's obviously like my my day job.
*07:43*
Um
*07:46*
But like I wasn't following the game super closely.
*07:47*
Like I missed E3 that year and I was like kind of fine with it.
*07:50*
I remember going and getting the game and like being excited to get it because I liked Uncharted and I knew Naughty Dog was a great studio
*07:53*
The thing that I remember from my first playthrough though was like, yeah, I'm gonna go to get it.
*08:00*
I've heard reviews are great.
*08:06*
I've heard people say it's awesome.
*08:07*
I was like
*08:09*
surprisingly like gripped by it in a way that I didn't expect, which was probably like I said, I started probably playing it that Monday and I had seriously probably beaten it by Wednesday.
*08:11*
And it and it that wasn't
*08:19*
an intention of mine.
*08:21*
It was just one of those things where it was like it it quickly grabbed me in a way that I didn't expect and it was just something that I didn't want to put down.
*08:23*
Like I am
*08:30*
seriously remembering multiple instances where I was like, oh I'll stop here.
*08:31*
I've been playing this for a few hours, time to go do something else.
*08:35*
And then that next story beat comes up that's like, well now I don't want to stop.
*08:37*
Um
*08:42*
And so it just kept going like that and I was surprised by how how it did that.
*08:43*
Um 'cause even compared to like Uncharted, which I think those games are all great, um, they had never really sucked me in in that way where I felt like I actively like
*08:48*
didn't want to stop playing.
*08:57*
Because like uncharted uncharted once you get to like a the next chapter or whatever, you're typically like, okay, this is a pretty good stopping point because the
*08:59*
rising action at the start of each chapter typically there's a good breaking point.
*09:07*
And uh there are good stopping points in The Last of Us too, but I I feel like it was just more about that
*09:11*
uh emotional connection of the characters and just being intrigued by their relationships developing and um seeing what was going to play out in the midst of all this.
*09:16*
So Yeah, it was
*09:27*
It was certainly a game that was very different for Naughty Dog, not so much mechanically as a third-person action shooter game.
*09:29*
I mean they've been making those since the PS2, uh, but just narratively and on a maturity level.
*09:36*
both just the intensity and like graphic nature of the game.
*09:43*
It was a big change in direction for them.
*09:47*
Um and the game was
*09:50*
Very well received.
*09:53*
Plenty of tens out of the gate, like I said, um you know, the reviews came out like ten days before the game even released, so there's plenty of time for that kind of to saturate.
*09:55*
And a lot of people were just talking about how crazy incredible this game was.
*10:05*
Um before we go into it, and I think we'll probably start with the story.
*10:10*
We both, for our most recent playthroughs of the game, um, played the PS4 version, which
*10:16*
has some graphical differences, like it you can play at a obviously a higher resolution or a higher frame rate or both.
*10:24*
Um we both have four K TVs now.
*10:30*
We do, which kind of sparked um
*10:33*
my desire to play it again this year 'cause I did play it last year in September, back when the game was still scheduled to be out in February.
*10:36*
And I was like, this is great.
*10:43*
It's early it's like early enough, like close enough to the game, but far enough out for a break.
*10:44*
and then pff everything happened with me and I ended up playing through it two more times here in February and March.
*10:49*
Anyway, I'm curious what settings you played on, what I played on, and like what we think of the PS4 version of the game.
*10:55*
compared to you know the original PS3 release.
*11:04*
So the PS3 release I've only played so I played this game three times in total.
*11:07*
I've only played it once on PS3, I believe.
*11:11*
Um okay I mean my trophies probably verify this, but I'm like 99% certain this is the case.
*11:14*
Played it once on PS3 and then I play I bought the remaster when it came out in 2014
*11:19*
Um and I just never played it.
*11:24*
It was just one of those things where it's like, oh, this is I don't know, first year of the PS4 life cycle, nothing else is really coming out.
*11:26*
It's like, oh I okay, he'll grab this game, even though I've already played it and I just want to kinda have it.
*11:32*
Um
*11:37*
So I bought it, but I didn't actually play it until 2017, surprisingly enough, um, which is actually really
*11:38*
insane and surprising because of the why well n well no well i it's surprising because I'm guess I'm looking back on my
*11:47*
younger self and wondering why I spent sixty dollars on a game I had no intention to play for three years.
*11:57*
Um, because I played full retail price for it.
*12:02*
And then I by the time I played it it probably was
*12:05*
uh PS PlayStation hit or whatever, probably could probably could have bought it for fifteen or twenty bucks.
*12:08*
Um probably I mean this is a long standing problem though
*12:13*
For you and me both.
*12:17*
When you bought a Fire Emblem Collector's Edition last year, how many hours you played that game?
*12:18*
I don't even think I've played an hour.
*12:23*
So I played it again in 2017.
*12:28*
I remember I just like got a weird itch for it and I played it again.
*12:30*
And then uh this most recent time the past week was the third time I played it
*12:33*
Um yeah, I don't know.
*12:37*
What was your general question?
*12:38*
stuff so I'm so I had it one step below twenty one to eighty which would be what nineteen hundred or no make maybe eighteen hundred
*12:49*
hundred or something like that.
*12:58*
It's it's higher than it's higher than fourteen, whatever.
*12:59*
Um 'cause twenty one eighty twenty one eighty I think is what it maxes out at or maybe is it twenty one sixty?
*13:03*
Twenty one sixty.
*13:09*
So it's be
*13:10*
Is it 360 below that?
*13:11*
So it'd be 1800, I believe.
*13:13*
Yeah, I think it was 1800.
*13:14*
Um and I I was gonna play it at 2160 on like true 4K or whatever.
*13:16*
But surprisingly, typically f lower frame rate doesn't bother me.
*13:23*
Like even like something way more faster pace, like God of War, for instance.
*13:27*
Um that's a game I a lot of people I know because it's so action-oriented, people
*13:32*
Suggest like, oh, you should play that game at 60 FPS.
*13:37*
Combat looks way better.
*13:39*
I played that game at 30 fps and higher I I chose to go higher resolution.
*13:41*
I typically always go higher resolution and I'll sacrifice the frame rate.
*13:45*
Something about it was bothering me when I tried to play this and I don't know what it was.
*13:48*
Maybe I am just getting more used to sixty fps.
*13:51*
But uh I opted to dial the fret resolution back just a little bit so that I could keep it at sixty fps while I played, and I thought that was
*13:54*
Fantastic.
*14:02*
Um, I really didn't see much of a different d difference graphically between 2160 and 1800 pixels.
*14:03*
Um
*14:11*
And then I played it on Survivor difficulty as well, which is what you did too, right?
*14:12*
Yeah.
*14:17*
I uh I did the Survivor and then Survivor Plus run because
*14:17*
I got the platinum.
*14:21*
I did a new game plus run too, I guess I should specify.
*14:22*
So I already had a lot of stuff that was carrying over.
*14:25*
Yeah, so gotta get those trophies though.
*14:28*
Yes.
*14:30*
I so I did it on twenty-one sixty locked thirty.
*14:30*
I prefer a stable frame rate over a variable one.
*14:36*
Um I just think in the end it's a smoother result.
*14:40*
So that's what I and the game was originally designed with 30 in mind, so I I felt okay with that.
*14:42*
Um and I also wanted to milk my new TV for all it was worth.
*14:47*
So I wanted all those pixels.
*14:51*
Uh and I thought it looked great.
*14:53*
I thought especially the HDR like it's the HDR the game was never designed for these resolutions and
*14:54*
colors, but it looks really well, especially for a seven-year-old game at this point.
*15:03*
Um it's actually turning seven this from when we're recording like three days from now.
*15:09*
Um which is crazy.
*15:15*
But yeah, that's what I did.
*15:18*
Yeah, I was surprised by how well the textures and stuff held up too in this remaster.
*15:20*
'Cause again this rema I mean, I know the game itself is seven years old soon but the remaster isn't earning
*15:25*
six years.
*15:29*
Um and I was surprised by how well it hold held up.
*15:31*
Um it seems like a lot I mean people are still releasing these remasters nowadays where it's got these hot talking points of 4K, HDR, sixty frames.
*15:34*
And it's like
*15:43*
You put the put the game into a modern platform.
*15:44*
Like what is a good incident uh the Vanquish and Bayonetta uh remaster that came out earlier this year was something I had a huge problem with.
*15:46*
where the game was running at a more stable frame rate for both of those games and it like visually looked way more clear because it's in 4K but like none of the textures had been touched up nothing had really been
*15:56*
polished much outside of that.
*16:08*
So it just looked I was like I was more clearly seeing what was an old game and everything surrounding it hadn't been really uh fixed up at all.
*16:09*
And I I think that's what's
*16:19*
uh was surprising me about the remaster still all these years later is that visually everything in the game still looks really solid and I don't know if if that's a credit to just
*16:21*
Naughty Dog's attention to detail as a whole because the Uncharted game still look I mean for notwithstanding because it was developed in for PS4 um this gym.
*16:31*
But like if you went back to the Uncharted collection now, I I would
*16:40*
Like those games Uncharted One even I feel like still looks r rather fine, all things considered g considering how old that game is.
*16:43*
Um so I think that's really just a testament to Naughty Dog's attention to detail and quality at a baseline level in what it is they're making.
*16:51*
Um yeah, that's that stood out to me a lot this time the way I played.
*16:58*
Let's I think dive into the kind of the heart of this game, the point that everyone talks about, which is the story.
*17:04*
Like it is this game's bread and butter and huge selling point.
*17:10*
Um
*17:15*
I think it still holds up incredibly well, uh, in this day and age.
*17:16*
I think it's definitely you can start seeing early
*17:21*
uh the impact of it kind of early on in games, a lot of people compare things now coming out to The Last of Us.
*17:26*
I remember when God of War twenty eighteen was initially revealed, people were like
*17:34*
Well, they're just ta they're just doing The Last of Us in God of War um ended up being slightly different and b incredibly impactful, but I digress.
*17:38*
The the story of this game
*17:48*
is the heart of it and um what did you how did you feel about it?
*17:52*
You know, the last time you played this was three years ago?
*17:56*
Yeah.
*18:00*
And so h how did you feel about it and how did you feel about it now in the context of an imminent sequel, a confirmed done sequel, you know, not
*18:01*
an early announcement, which would have been last time you played it, or even just like the possibility, you know.
*18:13*
Yeah, that was one thing I w definitely wanted to bring up to you as well.
*18:18*
Um so
*18:21*
I think what stood out to me the most this time when I played it is that we do all praise the story of this game a whole lot.
*18:23*
Um, and it's the one thing that I think
*18:29*
I have a question about this later that we can get into as well.
*18:32*
Um, but it's the one th aspect of this game that people just love and I think I think it's
*18:35*
More than anything, why people like this game so much is the narrative.
*18:40*
But I think what stood out to me this time is that the narrative is really not that special.
*18:44*
Um let me say that let me ex explain what I mean.
*18:48*
The broad strokes of the story are not anything too wild.
*18:52*
Um Joel's backstory is good and well done at the beginning, but then after that, once he comes in contact with
*18:57*
Ellie, it simply just becomes get girl from point A to point B across the country and it's things that they uh happen to them across the way.
*19:04*
What stood out to me a lot this time was that
*19:13*
I don't think it's the narrative exactly that is what carry this carries this game.
*19:16*
It's the r characters and it's just the writing.
*19:22*
Um
*19:25*
Um the writing in this game is exquisite and I think the reason why it's so good is because it feels believable and real, and that's why people like these characters so much.
*19:26*
I don't even think it's because the characters themselves are
*19:33*
anything super special, even though I I really love Joel.
*19:37*
I think it's just they feel so much more believable than 99% of other video game characters.
*19:41*
Um I mean we're like 40 years into the video game industry and it just seems like storytelling is such a
*19:48*
hit and miss thing a lot of times.
*19:55*
So when you get characters that are actually really well written, it stands out so much more.
*19:57*
Um
*20:02*
And maybe you disagree with that notion that the the narratives.
*20:03*
I I like I think the ending of the game there are moments, uh don't get me wrong, there are moments that I think are really uh like the whole ending portion of game where Joel makes his decision to
*20:06*
Decision, which we can kind of get into in a second, too.
*20:17*
I I wanted to talk about the ending.
*20:19*
Um, but Joel's whole choice at the end of the game and then how it kind of ends on this, just like unsp unspoken, but spoken
*20:21*
uh realization between the two of them.
*20:29*
Like all of that's like super interesting and um kind of leaving it all on that note where it's not really all nicely wrapped up.
*20:31*
Which I really liked.
*20:40*
But yeah, the broad strokes of the story is simply go from point A to point B and don't die on the way.
*20:42*
And it is just everything that happens to them across
*20:49*
as they get there.
*20:52*
Yeah, I I think when you read when you put the description of the game kind of like
*20:53*
qu quickly summarize just back of the box.
*21:01*
It is, you know, man takes girl across country.
*21:04*
Girl is immune to pandemic level disease.
*21:09*
Um
*21:13*
And it's the their bond that forms.
*21:14*
Like it's it's quick.
*21:16*
Uh one d one joke in particular I saw on Twitter recently, I think you shared it with me, it's just
*21:18*
P when you bring a story and you just reduce it down to like its core essentials it can sound very generic or simple.
*21:25*
One for Red Dead Redemption in particular was like
*21:33*
cowboy dies over forty hours.
*21:36*
Like what I think what Naughty Dog does within these tropes, this space of
*21:38*
you know, zombie, they're infected people, but whatever.
*21:45*
They're zombies.
*21:48*
Um shooter and uh relationship forming between two strangers
*21:49*
That in its own not special.
*21:55*
Been done a thousand times.
*21:59*
This genre's pretty impact.
*22:00*
But it's what they do in that space, and like you said, with these
*22:02*
genuine f characters, they feel real and make decisions that, you know, I think are justified and fleshed out and
*22:07*
feel like other you know, decisions other people would make.
*22:15*
I think that's where this story excels and it sticks with people.
*22:18*
Um you know, that ending in particular.
*22:22*
w life doesn't always wrap up in a nice pretty bow or clear definitive answer or always give you the choice in the matter.
*22:25*
I remember huge conserv controversy when the game came out back in twenty thirteen that people
*22:33*
you know, were like, I wish they let me choose whether or not to kill the doctors at the end.
*22:39*
But Naughty Dog told the story they wanted to tell, and it's kind of messy and deals in the gray area.
*22:45*
Yeah.
*22:51*
I mean I mean just to jump in real quick, like I've heard a lot of people say I I I think it's I think what's important with this game story too is the medium it takes place in.
*22:52*
Because the the most dismissive people going back to like writing things off that sound
*23:01*
like oh well in its simplest form this sounds bad is the people who I talk to are here that like are um don't care for this game as much are just like well the narrative's not that good.
*23:05*
Have you ever read The Road?
*23:15*
It's just the those same plot beats or whatever.
*23:16*
I think it's really the reason people latch on this is because it is one of the more believable, well written uh
*23:19*
from a dialogue perspective, specifically narratives and and gaming with the characters and stuff like that.
*23:27*
And that's why everybody's tried to rip this game off so much in recent years, whether it be
*23:32*
God of War, the new one, or uh even smaller stuff like uh like a Plague Tale does it.
*23:37*
Uh it really kind tried to copy the format of this game a lot.
*23:43*
So yeah, I I don't know.
*23:47*
I think I think this was f
*23:48*
Yeah, I like I can you think of any narratives prior to this that really resonated with people on this sort of level?
*23:50*
Um I I can think of like old 90s JRPGs like Final Fantasy VII's a big one.
*23:59*
Yeah, I don't know, like maybe Bioshock or I uh Ocarina of Time.
*24:04*
Ocarina of Time, yeah.
*24:08*
Even those were like text games, you know, like they didn't have like characters acting in them.
*24:10*
Like I put
*24:14*
Post post the advent of voice acting in video game.
*24:15*
Like I can't think of anything that really still certainly not one is widely discussed.
*24:18*
And definitely as successful.
*24:25*
Um, that's not to say there aren't any, but this game really kind of gripped onto people and took hold.
*24:27*
Um and has been
*24:34*
p actively discussed for the past seven years.
*24:36*
Um and even in those three years before a sequel is officially announced, this game was often, you know, jumped to a lot of people's like favorite games of all time list and explored
*24:40*
People people love this game and it's it's not hard to see why.
*24:51*
I mean, part of that's why we're doing this particular first, you know, season zero on this game is because it's
*24:56*
It's hot right now.
*25:03*
We both really enjoy this game and its impact does not go unnoticed.
*25:05*
About
*25:10*
I think kinda you hit on it briefly was the medium in which the story is told is essential to its impact.
*25:12*
You've got p
*25:21*
The road you can read the road, you can go watch, you know, Country for Old Men, but the cool part about The Last of Us is it's interactive and there's something that happens
*25:22*
When you play a game, you you possess the character on the screen, whether that's a game like Call of Duty or a game like The Last of Us, you know, you feel like you're doing those things.
*25:32*
And so
*25:43*
They elicit empathy through the gameplay, and th I think a really powerful moment of that is the intro of this game.
*25:45*
which subverts expectations right out of the gate by giving you control of Sarah.
*25:54*
Instead of playing the game through Joel's perspective or just watching a cutscene, you are put in the shoes of
*26:00*
A teenager while stuff is going crazy.
*26:08*
Her dad can't be found.
*26:12*
Things are shedding like clearly something is wrong.
*26:13*
And you play through this intro and then
*26:16*
It switches over to Joel carrying her, and you have no control except where you run.
*26:19*
You can't fight anything off.
*26:24*
You can't, you know, defend.
*26:25*
Like that's all up to your brother Tommy.
*26:27*
And then in the end, you know, Sarah dies in your arms.
*26:30*
And within twenty minutes, you have this connection with complete stranger.
*26:33*
Like it's not your daughter, it's not your kid, it's no one you know.
*26:40*
But there's a heavy sadness
*26:43*
within those first twenty minutes and it's all strengthened and powered through the controller.
*26:46*
And I think taking that over the course of
*26:53*
fifteen hours and having these two characters be the primary focus in their relationship develop, I think also as your relationship develop
*26:57*
not only with Joel, but also between you and Ellie, and then eventually, you know, you play as Ellie, which also is a powerful moment just in that sense.
*27:06*
So I mean I think the ending of the game is the second
*27:15*
most 'cause I and this is something they've talked about a lot with the sequel since that's about to come out, but just look the end of the game, uh the end of the game too is another one of those moments for me um where you're kind of
*27:18*
I don't know, borderline shocked, like when they're trying to escort Joel out of the hospital, the fireflies are pushing him out of there and he turns around and he shoots that guy in the gut like three or four times and blows his brains out.
*27:31*
Like that's a like that's a holy crap whoa moment.
*27:42*
Um, and you're sitting there watching it, you're kind of wide-eyed the first time you play it.
*27:46*
Uh, I mean even in this most recent playthrough, uh, that still that moment still affects
*27:50*
is affecting and then they put you in control and now you have to do that to large groups.
*27:54*
that you've never had the entire game and you you can just rip through the fireflies in there, which is
*28:07*
How Joel feels in that moment, you know, there's an urgency to get to Ellie and that all of it.
*28:15*
But then
*28:22*
even t even after that and you escape and he murders Marlene, which was a really powerful and kind of just heavy moment, you then at the very end you play as Ellie again.
*28:24*
And like n you know what Joel has done.
*28:37*
You were Joel five minutes ago.
*28:40*
Yeah.
*28:42*
But now it's shifted and now you're this and
*28:43*
I think that's powerful too, just simply switching the character you're playing as gives you a different emotional response.
*28:46*
So let's uh let's sit with uh things I know we're gonna want to talk about, but let's uh let's sit with the Indian for the sec a second here, because I have a few questions for you and I have a few things that I wanted to get a little bit more
*28:54*
more in depth and to a certain degree about the Indian, about the world as a whole, specifically with the fireflies.
*29:08*
I'm curious what
*29:14*
Your outlook on them is because it for the first time I played this game, I guess in my mind I was like, oh well, these are supposed to be the good guys, these are like the heroes of this world.
*29:16*
And this time I played the game and it more stood out to me that like these dudes are like pseudo-terrorists to a certain degree.
*29:25*
Um
*29:33*
And that they shouldn't be trusted anymore.
*29:34*
Every s every single group every single group of people you come across in this game are bad
*29:37*
Um, the only people that are not bad are the companions that you come across who end up dying.
*29:42*
Uh Henry and Sam, Wes
*29:48*
I'd argue that like Tommy and the people at the dam are Well, yeah, that's that's what I mean.
*29:51*
Outside of outside of them, yes.
*29:56*
Um outside of the outside of Tommy's group and then everybody else you come across that ends up dying along the way.
*29:58*
Uh every other person you come across in this game is not great.
*30:03*
Um like I said, the first time when I played this game
*30:07*
Like I was a little bit more in shock of Joel's choice at the end of the game to really go up against those people because I'm like, what are you doing?
*30:11*
These people are trying to save everybody.
*30:18*
And this time it more came across to me that this is like a fringe
*30:20*
group of outlaws to a certain degree.
*30:25*
And I'm not so sure that I believe they're trying to
*30:28*
Cure society of this plague to just help out humanity and it's not more to further their own cause, if that makes sense.
*30:33*
It's possible.
*30:44*
I think they just operate in this it isn't black and white, it's gray.
*30:45*
They they have a strong belief that the government, which
*30:50*
is, you know, ruling the quarantine zones and military essentially needs to be break broken down and traditional the government needs to be put back in place.
*30:54*
And they also, I think, are holding on to this hope, particularly Marlene, that a cure will fix humanity when
*31:06*
You know, kinda like Bill says, it's it's the real people that scare me.
*31:15*
I don't know I don't think humanity comes back from this the way they hope for, but they're cleaning onto that hope.
*31:20*
Um
*31:27*
You know, Marlene's journals there at the end, she's clearly is struggling with sacrificing Ellie for the this you know, this possibility of a cure.
*31:29*
Well it's because she has a personal attachment to Ellie.
*31:38*
too, which I think is worth noting.
*31:41*
But um I guess I had a conversation with uh friend or somebody I worked with after I ended this game.
*31:43*
the other night and we were kind of talking it all over again.
*31:50*
And it became a he it he posed the question to me like, what would happen if
*31:53*
Ellie was okay.
*32:00*
Everything goes perfectly without a hitch.
*32:01*
Uh they do the surgery on Ellie, they can reverse engineer, they turn it into vaccine.
*32:03*
What happens from there?
*32:07*
Well, they don't just like start passing it around to everybody in the world.
*32:10*
Well they would have to have to find a way to manufacture it.
*32:14*
Well, yeah, but they don't just start the world is so far gone at this point that
*32:18*
There is like there's just groups everywhere in like Pittsburgh or whatever that you're coming across.
*32:24*
Just these the marauder types that are just
*32:30*
out to kill people and steal and loot and steal all their and steal and murder.
*32:34*
Um so what is the fire if the fireflies get a vaccine, what do they use to levy it into?
*32:39*
They levy it they use it to levy themselves into a position of power, more so than they have now, I think.
*32:45*
Probably.
*32:52*
And the vaccine to me
*32:53*
when I started thinking about it more is more of a it's more of a thing that gets them into a position of power where they're then calling the shots.
*32:54*
more than just the being this underground group.
*33:04*
Right.
*33:08*
And maybe as a group as a whole, but in those final moments it's really just about
*33:08*
Joel's love and need for Ellie.
*33:14*
Yeah.
*33:16*
And Marlene's obsession to try and redeem humanity.
*33:17*
And, you know, sacrificing Ellie is a part of that.
*33:23*
And it
*33:26*
Well here's the other there's a r there's one other thing and I don't know because I I played this more recently than you there's one really big tell to me at the end of this game
*33:28*
that kind of really shaped how I viewed the Fireflies overall is that there is one of Marlene's docs towards the end of the game.
*33:35*
It's either one of the audio logs or one of the journal entries.
*33:43*
Where she talks about how uh everybody else in the Fireflies was telling her that she needed to kill Joel.
*33:47*
Like immediately.
*33:55*
Like the second he got to the hospital.
*33:56*
Um and she was like, No.
*33:59*
I I think it's in one of the audio logs.
*34:01*
She basically says, no.
*34:03*
I told them I'm I will not do that because he's the only person other than myself.
*34:05*
in this building who knows the value of the life that we're losing and Ellie.
*34:10*
Like he understands what she's going through.
*34:14*
Yeah.
*34:17*
He's the only other person that understands who Ellie is and why this is such a shame that this is happening.
*34:17*
to her because they're the only two people that have personal connections to her.
*34:23*
So I guess it speaks volumes to me that these people that she leads
*34:28*
and is in charge of are just actively saying murder this dude who went all the way from Boston to Utah and brought this girl and smuggler.
*34:33*
He did he did exactly what he was uh he he didn't have to keep doing it either
*34:41*
Like he could have stopped anything.
*34:46*
He could have stopped anywhere along the way and he knew that it had been almost a year by the time that he had gone across the country.
*34:49*
He was not doing it.
*34:56*
at that point for like you said the weapons like it that stopped being about that a long time ago and Marlene has to know that
*34:58*
And the larger group probably has to know that too.
*35:06*
And so for their first response when he gets to the hospital to be kill him?
*35:09*
Like
*35:13*
That speaks volumes to me about what that group is and that they're not as far removed from the other groups you come across in that game that treat you that exact same way.
*35:13*
Um
*35:22*
So they're just as much of a group of thugs as the people in Pittsburgh and David's group, but they're just they have different aims and goals that they're
*35:24*
Looking to achieve.
*35:33*
And that stood out to me a lot.
*35:35*
Yeah.
*35:37*
What did you think about
*35:38*
the ending and I'm specifically referring to just the that final moment where you're controlling Ellie and you know Joel says
*35:41*
It's, you know, the truth and she says okay.
*35:49*
Um in context of the fact that there is a sequel uh from when we're recording coming out in a week, like
*35:52*
P you know th when we originally played this game back on the PS3, that was an ending while messy in the sense of it's not neatly tied up.
*36:00*
completely stands alone.
*36:10*
There's there was no cliffhaner or need to explore this story further, but now, whether we like it or not, that's happening.
*36:11*
And so what did you
*36:21*
Good when I went into that moment, I was thinking about w w what does it mean?
*36:24*
How is it different and you know
*36:31*
Where does it go from here?
*36:35*
And c you have to look at it through a different lens, and I'm just curious what you thought in that moment.
*36:37*
No, and I definitely did with the whole game, the ending.
*36:44*
Probably more so than the rest, but the whole game I definitely had a different kind of viewpoint on this time.
*36:47*
Uh the Indian specifically though
*36:52*
Yeah, it was weird because when you first finish it, um, you don't I mean you don't know in the moment if there's ever gonna be a sequel or anything like that.
*36:55*
And I'm one of those people who's voiced for years that like this game
*37:01*
didn't need a sequel.
*37:04*
Like I like how the first game ended in a messy manner to where you didn't really need to touch that anymore.
*37:05*
Um
*37:13*
Yeah, it doesn't tie everything up, but that doesn't have to, and that's kind of an alluring thing, I've always thought.
*37:14*
Uh with this, it was more like
*37:21*
Rather than being this novel ending where you're like, wow, that's really brave of them to kind of end it on that note, it was more this time like, well, I know they're gonna explore all that in the next one, so.
*37:26*
I I don't know.
*37:38*
It didn't have the same the the ending doesn't have the same effect on me anymore now that we know there's a sequel coming and those things are going to be
*37:39*
Uh this is it's not to say if it's not effective at all.
*37:47*
It's just it yeah, way different light around it this time when you know that there's a new game coming out in a week that's going to clearly cover some of those unsaid things at the end of the game
*37:49*
Um, which it absolutely will.
*38:00*
It just it gives you like a different I don't know, a different vibe.
*38:02*
I've always been in the camp that
*38:08*
Ellie obviously knows that Joel is I think obviously knows that Joel is lying.
*38:10*
Uh you know, she's too good not to know.
*38:14*
And I think her okay is, you know
*38:17*
Admitting that she knows they both need each other, but he needs her more than she needs him per se.
*38:20*
And she's like agreeing to it.
*38:27*
I think she's accepting the fact he's
*38:29*
blatantly lying to her.
*38:32*
Um and it's like cool.
*38:33*
I you know, I can I can live with this.
*38:35*
Okay.
*38:38*
To to stop real quick, what do you think the tell is that she knows?
*38:38*
Because I think the tell personally
*38:42*
Is that she brings up her whole situation with Riley right before that, which she doesn't need to do and it's completely out of the blue.
*38:44*
But she basically explains in that moment that she feels like she's do-death.
*38:50*
Or she feels like she's do death to a certain degree.
*38:55*
She's been wait yeah, I'm still waiting for my turn.
*38:57*
Yes.
*39:00*
Which she again, Riley's not brought up in any other instance of that game until the very, very end.
*39:01*
Um
*39:05*
Um so she brings that up and then segues that directly into tell promise me you're telling the truth.
*39:06*
So it's almost like she has a weird
*39:12*
Death wish in a certain way?
*39:15*
Well I think she wants I think she's looking for a all this loss to be justified
*39:18*
Um earlier at the draft scene, you know, before they leave, you know, he goes, We don't have to do this and she goes, After everything we've been through, after everything I've done, it can't be for nothing.
*39:23*
Like p she believes that her p sacrifice, whether it was just getting rid of the vaccine or ultimately a death, which she probably assumed
*39:34*
you know, had to mean something.
*39:46*
It gives those losses meaning.
*39:47*
And Joel robs her of that by taking away her ability to sacrifice herself.
*39:51*
And she kind of was like
*39:56*
you know, swear to me, swear to me what you told me was true.
*39:58*
I think y part of that tell but I just think the way she looks and kind of nods
*40:02*
Like she has a subtle nod.
*40:07*
She's like, okay.
*40:09*
I just that energy and that delivery, I think and those twelve seconds, it's a twelve second silence.
*40:10*
I think it's her just realizing he needs her.
*40:17*
And you know, in that moment, Joel, like a parent, I think, not misinterprets where she's coming from or what she's trying to say.
*40:20*
But, you know, when she's like, I'm I'm still waiting for my turn, he's like, No, you know, I struggled a long time with surviving and you just have to find something to keep fighting for.
*40:30*
And you know, in that moment he grabs his watch, which was a gift from Sarah.
*40:40*
And even before the hike he was talking about how Ellie and Sarah would have been friends.
*40:44*
He found is something to fight for and it just so happens to be Ellie and I think she accepts it in that moment that he needs her.
*40:48*
And she's okay with it.
*40:57*
It's not what she wants, but she's okay with it.
*40:59*
I can't I can't wait to see how they explore it.
*41:01*
I really, really am curious.
*41:04*
about that.
*41:06*
Was there anything else in particular about the story you wanted to touch on before we moved on to I Thought gameplay?
*41:07*
I thought I I mean just to hone in on a few things.
*41:15*
I mean this uh the just the moments that are really like standout in this game.
*41:19*
Um
*41:26*
Like the draft sequence in particular, um I I think is really like it's almost like a joke or borderline meme at this point that that section is still is so uh
*41:27*
is like I don't know whenever people I don't know like even amongst ourselves whenever like we talk to like our friend Michael about it I'm like I play playing the draft game or whatever and he
*41:40*
Like, I don't know, just dumb offhand comments like that.
*41:51*
But like actually like playing it, like those moments are so well done.
*41:53*
The pacing throughout the entire game is just really
*41:57*
They know when to amp it up and then they know when to dial it back.
*42:01*
And then the draft thing coming right after winter, I think, is just the best the whole winter section and then that first part of spring.
*42:05*
uh with the giraffes is just so well done.
*42:15*
Um and that really stood out to me again this time, even though I've always felt that way with with the game.
*42:18*
Um it just really It's a great example of
*42:24*
using gameplay to tell the story.
*42:28*
I mean, she clearly is off put and isolated and thinking to herself.
*42:31*
Um, she's very cut off.
*42:36*
And then using the the mechanic of lifting her up to the ladder, something you've done plenty of times in the game, and then having her
*42:38*
not come when you push the button really kinda puts weight and emphasis on it.
*42:46*
And then seeing her go back to that old self, that childhood, you know, the level of innocence that she does have about the world.
*42:51*
To see that come back to life is a really powerful and uplifting moment, um, especially considering what's about to happen.
*43:00*
We can talk about gameplay.
*43:08*
What would you like to talk about with the gameplay?
*43:09*
I'll I mean I've always been a fan.
*43:12*
I think the best the best part of the gameplay on a whole is it creates
*43:14*
the feeling of tension.
*43:21*
I think it does a great job of doing that.
*43:22*
The real-time crafting and weapon swapping, uh, alongside crouching down and sneaking around.
*43:25*
I think it's done really well.
*43:33*
I think the human enemies in particular are do a good job of
*43:34*
giving you a sense of fear and like moving around and how they try to flank you and stuff.
*43:40*
That tech is obviously seven years old, but I think it still holds up really well.
*43:45*
Um but that just that
*43:49*
Feeling of scavenging around for parts and trying to create things that you need and having those tense shootouts and scenarios, I think, is its strength, is tension.
*43:51*
I will say the gameplay started to feel a little aged to me this time I played it.
*44:02*
I don't think it's bad.
*44:06*
But like certain things I started thinking about, again, this is uh it's weird because our whole playthrough of this game has been shaped by
*44:07*
the context of the game that's coming out in a week.
*44:15*
Um so we I mean we're replaying this game in the time period or at least I I did specifically.
*44:18*
Uh 'cause you played this I
*44:25*
like what a month or two back?
*44:27*
M whereas I played it like a week ago.
*44:28*
Um I mean we've seen like new like state-of-play stuff for Last of Us Part 2 and it's like showing all the different things you can do in that game and
*44:31*
Uh this game by comparison like felt very the segments where you're fighting clickers in the cordyceps compared to the segments where you're fighting actual humans
*44:39*
It stood out to me way more this time that those are like completely two separate things that never over uh cross over with one another and I know left behind
*44:51*
uh mixes up.
*44:59*
It does, yeah.
*44:59*
It do and I think it actually does it pretty well.
*45:00*
I know you didn't play left behind.
*45:02*
I did not this time, yeah.
*45:04*
I mean I have before, but um
*45:05*
And I know that I know that so I know it plays around with those ideas.
*45:08*
Um but part two looks like it's incorporating that stuff a little bit more, which is kind of interesting to me.
*45:11*
It looks like they're giving
*45:16*
Uh there's a lot of of things to think about and I agree that the game uh keeps you on your toes and keeps you thinking.
*45:18*
Um, especially on Survivor.
*45:25*
I will say this surviv I I will say
*45:27*
My gameplay experience on Survivor, I'm sure the same for you is probably a little bit different, because uh most combat situations have to play out in a certain way where you don't have a whole lot of
*45:29*
You don't have a whole lot of leeway because you're trying not to expend your ammo a ton.
*45:42*
I mean uh when I play the game on Survivor, you try to find a brick or a bottle, you chuck it at somebody's head, and then you smack them across the face and it's an easy one-hit shot
*45:46*
Um and you can serve ammo that way too.
*45:55*
Uh that's how I play it, at least I don't know if that's what you do as well.
*45:58*
Well I feel like I have a hard time
*46:02*
talking about this entirely, like at least fairly or fresh.
*46:07*
Cause I've this this is my eighth time playing the game.
*46:11*
Yeah.
*46:15*
I know these encounters
*46:16*
In and out.
*46:19*
Like I know where these guys are gonna be.
*46:19*
I know the paths, I know the hiding spots.
*46:22*
I'm I'm pretty good and reactive on my feet.
*46:24*
There are still times.
*46:27*
where the mechanics and like all of it layers in a really great way that's fresh where I'm choking out one guy and another guy I wasn't aware was nearby.
*46:28*
He's like coming down the stairs so he sees me and then he's popping off a shot and so I have to react
*46:37*
Like those moments still occur, but on a whole, I know what's gonna happen and I know how I want to approach it.
*46:41*
So I feel like I have a hard time, at least maybe now fairly 'cause I don't
*46:48*
feel like that.
*46:52*
I know how I was gonna, you know, handle a clicker here or the guys here.
*46:53*
I've I leaned on my fist a lot this time around.
*46:57*
Um
*47:01*
And it led to some interesting things.
*47:02*
Like I felt like I discovered a lot of new paths and routes.
*47:04*
I intentionally tried to go away I hadn't gone before.
*47:07*
Um like an early example is in the Capitol building at the end there where you have those two hallways.
*47:11*
And where you're gonna run out and go to the subway.
*47:17*
I always go to the left because I feel like there are fewer people that way.
*47:20*
And um
*47:24*
This time around I went to the right and it led to scenario I hadn't encountered before because I wasn't familiar with that half of the building's like route and presence.
*47:25*
Um, so I did try to make it new for me and that was fun and exciting.
*47:35*
I mean I feel the same way.
*47:38*
I'm I'm obviously like very familiar I've played the game three times at this point.
*47:39*
I feel like
*47:43*
I know it pretty well.
*47:43*
It's kind of ironic that this is the first game we're playing for uh what we're calling season zero of chapter select here.
*47:44*
Uh because it's I think compared to a lot of what we do in the future, this'll probably be the most
*47:51*
familiar wherever with any certain yeah, I feel like this is the most we'll ever have known prior uh for any game.
*47:56*
Um, it might be different for you with some games in the future, and myself too.
*48:07*
But uh I mean I think shared experience between the two of us is probably one of the games we both will collectively know the most about.
*48:11*
Um
*48:19*
that we're gonna do in this show.
*48:20*
So yeah, it's uh yeah, I don't know.
*48:22*
Gameplay still again, gameplay still holds up, I think, in a in a large sense.
*48:25*
Um
*48:30*
Playing on Survivor is a different beast though, for sure.
*48:30*
I th I feel like it was almost the intended way.
*48:34*
I've I do prefer Survivor, I think having
*48:38*
not having everything you want to make and having to make those hard choices between a a health kit and a Molotov, I think have a good weight in Survivor.
*48:41*
I know on normal I just feel kitted out all the time.
*48:50*
Yeah.
*48:54*
Um and not having listen mode I think also helps.
*48:54*
I'm glad you actually brought that up.
*48:58*
I don't think listen mode should be in the game at all.
*48:59*
Even at lower difficulties, I don't really understand it.
*49:02*
I think it's fine as like an acces accessibility option.
*49:05*
You've always had the ability to turn it off and not use it.
*49:08*
So it's you as a player can choose to do it.
*49:10*
Just Survivor forces you to not do that.
*49:13*
Um
*49:16*
But listen mode is definitely like a m like a superpower.
*49:16*
Like it is not is the most unrealistic part of that game for a game that tries to be so grounded in its reality.
*49:20*
Joel having the ability to listen through walls
*49:27*
is completely like it is a video game power.
*49:30*
Um in Survivor Mode robs you of that, and I think fairly so.
*49:34*
It's just
*49:37*
You have to n listen and know your surroundings and stuff.
*49:38*
I think the sound of this game like the sound design of these encounters is critical um and is done really well.
*49:41*
Yeah, you just gotta pay attention a little bit more to the environment.
*49:49*
I I think the first time I did Survivor on this, I thought it was gonna be way harder because I didn't have that ability to look through walls and I was gonna really it's I don't I don't feel like it's that big of a
*49:52*
I mean it's a big difference, yes, but uh I don't feel it's uh feel like it's as vast as I thought it'd be.
*50:01*
I bottom line, like playing on Survivor compared to playing on normal or something.
*50:07*
I don't think the hardest part of the game on Survivor is not having the ability to look through walls.
*50:11*
I think it's more just that you're strapped for items and that you're strapped for ammo and
*50:16*
uh scab uh parts to craft items and things like that.
*50:22*
Um looking through walls and stuff, yeah it's helpful, but I feel like it's not as
*50:26*
Helpful as you would originally think, honestly, which is why I think it should just be taken out of the game.
*50:31*
Or maybe not taken out of the game.
*50:38*
I don't know.
*50:40*
Yeah, you can turn it off for yourself
*50:40*
I guess like you said, it's a solid accessibility thing to have, I guess, but certainly makes it easier for people if they need that.
*50:41*
Um I will say though, just briefly, um
*50:48*
going into multiplayer, uh listen mode is essential.
*50:53*
And it's really weird so it's really weird coming off of playing single player and not a having it and not even trying to use it.
*50:57*
And then having to teach yourself to
*51:05*
use it all the time in multiplayer and be like lean on it as a crutch um because it it definitely can change the tide of a an encounter in multiplayer.
*51:07*
Um and maybe we'll briefly touch on multiplayer later, but I did want to say
*51:17*
listen mode does have a good place, just not in the story.
*51:21*
Well then tell me about how it has a good place in multiplayer as we get into that then.
*51:25*
Because this is something you're way more intimately familiar with.
*51:29*
Unless there's more things you wanted to talk about with general gameplay.
*51:31*
Uh d not so much general gameplay.
*51:35*
I thought maybe the music though.
*51:37*
Okay.
*51:39*
I thought that fit closer to the single player.
*51:40*
Yeah.
*51:43*
Uh
*51:44*
Incredible?
*51:45*
Yeah, I think what's really interesting to me about the soundtrack, and this sounds weird because all soundtracks are meant to complement the games, obviously, but there are some soundtracks that
*51:47*
I mean all of Gustavo's music in this game is it's it stands apart on its own and you can listen to it separate from the game.
*51:57*
But what really stood about to me this time is that I have listened to the soundtrack independent of the game.
*52:03*
over the past couple years and I'm like pretty familiar with most of the tracks on the game now.
*52:10*
It was more this time seeing how those said tracks were also implemented into the moments in the game that really stood out to me and like how
*52:15*
Just absolutely perfect they were for each moment.
*52:23*
I mean looking at the draft set uh draft sequence again.
*52:26*
What I really like about that, uh the song that is used there, I believe the song is called
*52:29*
Vanishing Grace, if I'm correct.
*52:33*
Uh is that song is like really chill and like uh
*52:36*
There's a wondrous uh quality to the song that plays during that sequence.
*52:42*
But the very tail end of that song, and it plays right as you're wrapping up that sequence and you decide to
*52:47*
go go down the stairs and go out the door is it gets really ominous and eerie there right at the very end which is really reflective of that point in the game because it's really the last
*52:53*
I mean they let you really stew on that the edge of that uh building there and watch the drafts or whatever run around because what everything that comes after that is when the game gets
*53:04*
super serious and it kind of pedaled to the metal until the credits roll.
*53:13*
And I like that it just like little things like that are sprinkled all throughout the the soundtrack that I picked up on this time.
*53:17*
uh where it plays off of what is happening in where if you listen to the soundtrack on its own you think it is just like the music is changing because they're shifting to another riff or they're shifting to another
*53:24*
uh stanza in the song or anything like that.
*53:35*
But it's really a playing off of the actual game itself and the
*53:38*
Less of what is happening directly on the screen at that moment because when you're playing the game again with the draft sequence and you decide to go down their stairs first time you play the game you don't know necessarily
*53:43*
what is coming ahead of you, but if you have played the game, then you know that everything that lies ahead from that point is the game gets much heavier.
*53:53*
So when the music twists like that towards the end
*54:00*
Like you understand why he made those che decisions stuff like it's just all perfect for game soundtracks like yeah, like I said at the top, like the game soundtracks can be fantastic and independent of themselves, but
*54:04*
And maybe they're all way better in this regard than I've noticed over the years, but because I've played this game so many times now, I was able to pick up on like really small things like that scattered all throughout the game this time.
*54:15*
A couple of just key music standout points for me, besides the fact that I just listen to the soundtrack pretty regularly, is um both the opening of the game, so after Sarah dies, it cuts to black and it does those opening credits.
*54:27*
And the main theme plays.
*54:40*
Uh I feel like that's just like a buckle up kind of moment.
*54:42*
Like that music is just
*54:47*
I mean that's good stuff.
*54:49*
And then um the end, the very end of the game, those twelve seconds of silence, the car the guitar just picks up and goes.
*54:50*
And it's just like faster strumming.
*54:58*
Right, because it that's how you feel.
*55:01*
You're like, oh my god, he just lied.
*55:03*
What is she gonna like your heart goes up and the music goes up and it's really well done.
*55:06*
Fight for.
*55:12*
Now I know that's not what you want to hear right now.
*55:13*
Swear to me.
*55:15*
Swear to me that everything that you've said about the fireflies is true.
*55:19*
I swear
*55:28*
Okay.
*55:40*
And then um my other thing is like my favorite tiny small realistic detail.
*55:42*
In any game so far.
*55:48*
I guess I've always loved this moment, but when you roll into Pittsburgh, you're playing the music on the cassette in the truck.
*55:49*
Um
*55:56*
And when you get ambushed and it switches over to gameplay, the music picks up where you it left off in the cutscene, like there's a continuity there.
*55:57*
And it's just, I love that.
*56:05*
Um that song is
*56:07*
What is it called?
*56:08*
Alone and Forsaken by Hank Williams.
*56:09*
So, yeah, the soundtrack's great, and I like I'm curious to see how it shapes up in part two.
*56:12*
I feel like
*56:18*
Not a lot of this music has been shown off.
*56:19*
Uh and I'm very, very excited to hear it.
*56:22*
One more thing on this.
*56:25*
I really I like how simplistic a lot of the music is in this soundtrack too.
*56:26*
Like there's nothing super complex with it.
*56:30*
Even like the opening title that you were talking about there a second ago.
*56:32*
Like it's there's a little bit more happening in that opening uh s that opening title sequence part, but it's not anything too
*56:36*
fancy or anything like that at any point.
*56:44*
And there's also refrains on the main theme all throughout the soundtrack that I think are um
*56:46*
uh like whether he's slowing up the main main theme to the game or or speeding it up or things like that or playing it on different instruments or different styles of guitar or
*56:52*
uh playing it on an acoustic compared to playing it on an electric or something like that.
*57:02*
Uh it's just a lot of variety, but what the variety is based around is like really simple m melodies and riffs and things like that.
*57:06*
throughout.
*57:17*
Um he does a lot with a little in the game.
*57:18*
And there's a reason you can tell that like
*57:22*
I mean, obviously Neil Juckman like praises everybody at Naughty Dog who works on this game, but I feel like he's always been much more boisterous about Gustavo's
*57:25*
Work on the game score and like they got him.
*57:33*
He's doing the score for the HBO show too, isn't he?
*57:35*
Yep.
*57:38*
Yeah.
*57:38*
So Yeah.
*57:39*
So yeah, like he's pretty it it's pretty great that he's back for this game.
*57:45*
They also have the composer for Mr.
*57:50*
Robot doing some music in the game too.
*57:52*
Part two.
*57:54*
I think to kind of begin to wrap up our discussion, really, I want to at least talk about the part of the game that no one ever talks about and for is often forgotten.
*57:55*
Which is the multiplayer is the factions multiplayer.
*58:07*
And I know that you didn't play any uh on your most recent playthrough.
*58:10*
Uh d did you play it when it was originally on PS3?
*58:14*
Max, I don't think I've ever s played a single match of faction.
*58:17*
Oh my goodness.
*58:20*
So like I legitimately don't think I've ever played one match.
*58:22*
I can't ever remember doing it.
*58:25*
That's
*58:28*
That's alright.
*58:29*
Like I've you know, it's sad.
*58:30*
So I'm sorry, this is my blind spot for this part of the discussion.
*58:31*
It's okay.
*58:34*
Um to be brief about it, it just that talk of tension that I brought up in the gameplay
*58:35*
is mirrored perfectly in the multiplayer and it really really stresses you out.
*58:41*
Your heart rate really gets going.
*58:46*
And I think it's it kind of reminds me today.
*58:47*
of the battle royale.
*58:51*
When you are in the final ten, five of a battle royale and it is you and you don't know where the other people are and like the map is getting and the battle royale's case is getting smaller and smaller and smaller
*58:53*
uh so conflict is being forced that same feeling today I think was captured back in factions in The Last of Us.
*59:05*
Just that
*59:14*
Very tight.
*59:16*
You're scavenging for items, collecting, building up your character, and trying to be the last one standing or, you know, to get the um
*59:17*
to unlock the safe or whatever the mode is.
*59:26*
I just think it's really well done and has this cool metagame of building up a clan and of digital survivors and things like that.
*59:29*
And even when the game came out it would tie into your Facebook account so you could see that uh Logan Moore has dysentery.
*59:35*
Um and it would, you know,
*59:42*
That's ki it was cool at the time.
*59:45*
I I don't think actually I don't think Facebook integration is even supported anymore in the PSC.
*59:47*
Yeah, so that's why I think that I think it's why 'cause it was after that
*59:54*
It was after that whole falling out with uh Facebook and like data or whatever.
*59:58*
Uh remember that whole thing?
*01:00:04*
Yeah, it is.
*01:00:05*
I can't remember what it was about specifically, but Zuckerberg had to go to like Capitol Hill and testify.
*01:00:06*
All kinds of other stuff.
*01:00:12*
I can't remember the specifics of why that was the case, but uh all sorts of crazy Sony distanced themselves not long after.
*01:00:12*
Yeah.
*01:00:20*
So the multiplayer is great.
*01:00:21*
Uh the trophies are really hard because they're so time consuming.
*01:00:23*
And that's kind of maybe one shame just about it.
*01:00:26*
It's just
*01:00:29*
That side of it is so hard to get.
*01:00:30*
Uh it feels good getting it.
*01:00:32*
This is totally an aside.
*01:00:34*
You saw the trophy uh we talked about this, right?
*01:00:35*
The trophies in the sequel, right?
*01:00:37*
No.
*01:00:39*
None of them are tied to difficulty.
*01:00:40*
Oh yes, yes, yes.
*01:00:43*
I'm sorry.
*01:00:44*
I thought you meant like the list is posted.
*01:00:44*
Yes, there is no difficulty trophy.
*01:00:46*
Um, which is great.
*01:00:48*
That means there's no survivor run or necessary for the platinum, which'll be great.
*01:00:49*
But the multiplayer I feel like is often overshadowed by the single player, and maybe the single player is kind of the obviously the core focus of the game, but
*01:00:53*
The multiplayer in the game was genuinely great at the time and as someone who just spent fifty hours playing it, it's pretty darn good.
*01:01:01*
There's still an active community surrounding it too, which is kinda
*01:01:10*
I really never had trouble finding a game, even now, seven years later.
*01:01:14*
Um and I'm super curious to see what whatever the multiplayer in part two
*01:01:18*
that got cut out and is being spinned off into something else.
*01:01:23*
I'm curious to see what that turns out to be.
*01:01:26*
But I think it's important to remember there was multiplayer and that it was good.
*01:01:28*
So I love the multiplayer in this game.
*01:01:34*
The one last thing I can think of, and again, one more thing too on my end.
*01:01:37*
Okay.
*01:01:41*
Um is the DLC just
*01:01:42*
briefly, I replayed it this year, but you didn't, but uh like you mentioned earlier, you've played it before.
*01:01:46*
Um this was Naughty Dog's first 4A into DLC of any kind, um at least of the single player variety.
*01:01:52*
I I love it.
*01:02:00*
I think it's a it's a great little short story.
*01:02:01*
Very cool to explore that time in winter when Joel is out and
*01:02:04*
It also it was able to introduce that mechanic of having the infected fight other hunters.
*01:02:09*
I just it kind of explored some more ideas while being in a smaller package.
*01:02:15*
I'm but how do you feel?
*01:02:19*
about it.
*01:02:21*
I don't know.
*01:02:21*
Um, yeah, it's been a while since I've played it.
*01:02:22*
Actually probably was actually I think it was three years ago when I maybe
*01:02:24*
played this as well.
*01:02:30*
Um actually now that I'm thinking back on it, I think when I bought uh Remastered, the reason I bought it was because I hadn't played Left Behind.
*01:02:32*
Now this is coming back to me.
*01:02:40*
And I played left behind at that moment.
*01:02:41*
And I think I've since replayed it.
*01:02:43*
Um But I'm not sure.
*01:02:45*
I like how I I like how I can verify all of these things that I'm thinking off the top of my head by just going and
*01:02:47*
Looking back at my trophies like when did I ping the trophy?
*01:02:52*
This'll tell me.
*01:02:54*
Uh which is something you've told me to do before is like, oh just go look at the
*01:02:55*
trophy ping data and like I remember we were having a conversation the other day like I can't remember when I played Bloodborne and you're like we'll go to look at your trophies and I'm like that's a good point uh anyway
*01:03:00*
Uh yeah, I don't remember a whole lot about it.
*01:03:10*
Um uh Jack X combat Jack Combat Racing is coming to mind
*01:03:13*
Uh that was it's cool in the arcade, yeah.
*01:03:18*
That was actually a really cool moment.
*01:03:21*
I remember I remember like little touches like that.
*01:03:23*
current day stuff when you're playing as LE during the winter sequence.
*01:03:30*
Um I like that the DLC was a little bit more low key.
*01:03:33*
Um
*01:03:37*
I don't uh tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember a whole lot of um combat situations in that game really, which are just maybe two or three.
*01:03:38*
Yeah, like the ending the ending one with the hunters is one and then the clickers there uh when you and Riley get swarmed and then there's
*01:03:48*
There's a couple other ones.
*01:03:57*
Um, but I like that largely.
*01:03:59*
I think it's great.
*01:04:02*
It does a lot of storytelling through gameplay, like the Halloween store, for example, or
*01:04:03*
throwing bricks at the cars or doing the photo booth.
*01:04:08*
Like all of this is interactive storytelling.
*01:04:11*
They're carousel.
*01:04:14*
They didn't need to put you in a combat situation to give you good or interesting gameplay that was telling a cool story.
*01:04:15*
Which is smart and is kind of their design philosophy going forward.
*01:04:23*
But so what do you got?
*01:04:27*
You said you had one more thing.
*01:04:28*
Yeah, I I think uh
*01:04:30*
I think this is actually a good final thing to put a pin in this whole conversation.
*01:04:33*
Um and this isn't something we'll talk about with in every episode of this, but I think it's pertinent to this one because um
*01:04:37*
I mean this is so one of your favorite games of all time.
*01:04:45*
Is this what is this your second favorite game of all time?
*01:04:48*
Last time I did a public list, yes.
*01:04:51*
Okay, so only in charred fours ahead, which is wild to me.
*01:04:54*
Um We have had this discussion.
*01:04:58*
I know we have.
*01:05:01*
Um We actually I don't know if we ever did actually have the great naughty dog debate, did we?
*01:05:02*
On our old sh program.
*01:05:08*
I feel like that had to be an episode.
*01:05:10*
I feel like it should have been.
*01:05:12*
Anyway.
*01:05:14*
Um it would have been in our Uncharted 4 spoiler cast.
*01:05:14*
Yeah.
*01:05:18*
This game still resonates with people so much, um, even today.
*01:05:19*
Like
*01:05:25*
seven years later, which is crazy to say.
*01:05:26*
Holy smokes.
*01:05:28*
It is almost like okay, so you and I both graduated in uh 2013.
*01:05:29*
One year from now we will have been through high school
*01:05:35*
twofold more time since we graduated, which is a weird way to track that in terms of time, but it's also just bizarre to me.
*01:05:37*
Anyway, um I guess I guess my broad question is like
*01:05:44*
This game, since it released, has gone on to obviously be one of the most popular and beloved games, most critically acclaimed games of all time, which is is
*01:05:48*
It was in the moment, but people still feel that this strongly about this game all these years later, which is why, again, we're recording this before the other game has come out and we haven't
*01:05:58*
I I know the leaks situation that has happened with the second game, but a lot of people are really mad about what they perceive as um
*01:06:08*
Like things they don't like about the second game, supposedly.
*01:06:19*
Um and I I don't think people would have that strong of a reaction to leaks for any other game.
*01:06:24*
Um, and it's because people do feel so strongly about this game.
*01:06:30*
And I guess my overall question just kind of put an end of this episode is why do people
*01:06:33*
I mean we we've talked about it in broad strokes throughout the whole episode, but what is it about this game that has stood the test of time so far as we near almost
*01:06:41*
A couple years away from the decade anniversary of this game.
*01:06:50*
Um and this game it seems like something that's going to like this is always going to be something a touchstone game that people look back on forever.
*01:06:54*
Like I don't see that changing either
*01:07:01*
Um this game's legacy now, even if the sequel is bad in some regards, I don't think it's gonna taint how people feel about this game
*01:07:03*
So I don't know, just a general question for you, and I know you have your own feelings about it, and we've talked about a lot of it uh over the course of this episode, but just in a general sense, like
*01:07:11*
What is it about this game that you think really clicked with people and why has it just become this all-time classic?
*01:07:19*
I think it's the level of authenticity from
*01:07:26*
The characters, the story, the how they get kind of muddled in the gray instead of dealing in black and whites.
*01:07:33*
There is no
*01:07:43*
Good guy, there is no bad guy.
*01:07:45*
Like people's actions are justified to them
*01:07:48*
You know, Joel does the things it makes sense for Joel and he believes what he's doing is right.
*01:07:52*
But Marlene was doing the same thing.
*01:07:57*
Heck, the the hunters in Pittsburgh have their reasons.
*01:07:59*
Um Henry and Sam have their like
*01:08:02*
Everything is muddied and gray and real and grimy and it's not glamorized.
*01:08:05*
And it's
*01:08:12*
While it's not relatable in the sense that obviously there's no I was gonna say no pandemic, um, but no, you know, mutating fungus pandemic and people aren't
*01:08:13*
br you know, scavenging for supplies and brutally murdering people, um, you know, for uh shoelaces.
*01:08:25*
It's it's messy in a way that feels
*01:08:33*
Authentic, and I think that's what people connect to, is because it is it feels genuine, it feels real in that space, and I don't think a lot of video games feel like that.
*01:08:38*
Yeah, I've been dwell I mean, I obviously knew that I wanted to bring this up in this episode, so I've been kinda pondering this question the past few days myself.
*01:08:50*
I think for me, I mean uh it's uh many of the things we've talked about throughout this episode uh throughout this episode, just how well written the characters are and
*01:08:56*
the overall beats of the game and things like that and how well done they are.
*01:09:04*
I I th those things all yes, obviously.
*01:09:07*
But I think more than anything, um
*01:09:09*
It's that people like discussing this game, and I think a lot of it is because kind of what you said, it's no it's not a clear cut
*01:09:12*
Spider-Man is fighting Dr.
*01:09:23*
Octopus and Spider-Man needs to defeat Dr.
*01:09:24*
Octopus and one is the good guy and one is the bad guy.
*01:09:27*
Is this game where there are various
*01:09:29*
Factions and uh people uh in this world who are very self-seeking and who are
*01:09:32*
doing things for their own benefit and people like to discuss the moral quandaries that are presented in this game and uh
*01:09:40*
Um like at our own sta again, I I I talked to some people again the other night after I finished this game and we like our whole our whole staff at Dual Shockers was like talking about this game as if it had just come out last week and we were all like dissecting the plot like
*01:09:48*
Like it like it was all brand new to us.
*01:10:02*
And I just think there's so many I think because there is so much gray in this game, it has just been able to
*01:10:04*
live on because people like to discuss certain things or they replay it and they see things from a new angle and they uh they want to
*01:10:12*
express those things like it like my whole thing where I was talking about this time where uh where I have like a new perspective on the fireflies and I that was the like thought was interesting and
*01:10:19*
notice this time that it is now something I've wanted to talk about with people.
*01:10:28*
So I just think there's a lot of different angles to it and I think there's a lot to break down in some regards.
*01:10:32*
And I think that's what's kind of kept it lingering on in the larger video game zeitgeist for the past.
*01:10:41*
um seven plus years um as we've gone on.
*01:10:49*
It's just a game that prompt discussions and and people like to talk about it.
*01:10:54*
There is
*01:10:58*
an energy about it, like that does create discussion.
*01:11:00*
And I think generally, at least in the people I've talked to, creates good discussion.
*01:11:04*
You know, it's not it can devolve very quickly, but I also think it's like it maybe it has views that change over time.
*01:11:09*
You know, maybe someone initially thought Joel was the bad guy, but now it can change because things in their life have changed.
*01:11:17*
Possibly.
*01:11:25*
Um Yeah.
*01:11:26*
So I think it's a an adaptable game and it's accepting in that sense.
*01:11:27*
I think it's an accessible game too.
*01:11:33*
to a wide ranging audience.
*01:11:35*
Like even somebody like your wife is not a huge gamer by any means, but she likes this game, doesn't she?
*01:11:37*
Yeah, she's she's watched me uh play it.
*01:11:42*
So the one of the most recent times I played it here.
*01:11:45*
Uh she sat with me the whole time and um she got to watch it and kind of experience it that way.
*01:11:47*
Um, she finds just games controlling a camera and a third person game intimidating in general, but she still really enjoys it and connects to it.
*01:11:53*
Um and she's excited for the sequel just like I am.
*01:12:02*
She's she's not gonna be able to keep up with you.
*01:12:05*
We're gonna have you had that con Have you had that conversation yet?
*01:12:08*
Yeah, we did the other day on our walk.
*01:12:12*
We're gonna do our very best.
*01:12:15*
Um, we'll see how that goes next week.
*01:12:16*
I think that'll do it, but thanks for doing this with me, Logan.
*01:12:19*
Um
*01:12:23*
If you would like, you can go check out the uh next episode.
*01:12:24*
I believe it'll be out right now.
*01:12:28*
I think that's kind of our plan now, but uh the next episode of this season zero is gonna be our discussion on The Last of Us Part Two
*01:12:30*
Which will obviously talk about the game itself and how far along the the gameplay styling of The Last of Us has come along, you know, visually how it looks and things like that, and also its narrative impact on the game itself and
*01:12:37*
The Last of Us, the two games together, how they stand as a pair.
*01:12:50*
Maybe even if there is a third one coming down the pipeline.
*01:12:54*
I don't know.
*01:12:56*
But you can go check that episode out.
*01:12:57*
If you'd like to find us online, you can find Logan on Twitter at Moreman12.
*01:12:59*
and check out his work over at dualshockers.
*01:13:04*
com.
*01:13:06*
Managing editor.
*01:13:06*
They're doing great stuff over there.
*01:13:07*
If you'd like to see anything that I'm working on,
*01:13:09*
You can find me on Twitter at Max Roberts143 and also over at maxfrequency.
*01:13:12*
net
*01:13:19*
Um but thank you for listening to this.
*01:13:20*
I hope you all enjoyed and uh we'll catch you next time.
*01:13:21*
Bye everyone.
*01:13:24*
Adios
*01:13:26*