# Chapter Select, [[S3E3 - Banjo-Tooie]] Transcript This transcription was completed on March 4, 2026 with the application MacWhisper on macOS. This was done automatically, without human input during the transcription process. The transcription used the Parakeet v3 model. My hope is that by offering this transcription – however accurate it may be done by a machine learning/AI – will help you, the listener. I’d love to offer full, proper transcription some day, but that is not feasible at this time. Thank you for listening and reading. I hope you enjoy the show and that this document was helpful. Enjoy. --- Brian, I gotta ask. *00:00* I gotta ask. *00:03* Okay. *00:04* How is this creator clash boxing thing? *00:05* Because I didn't know it was happening until you said so. *00:12* I well, I knew it was happening. *00:16* Um obviously you had tickets. *00:19* Yeah, yeah. *00:21* I I found out through um uh Super Mega, if you know who they are. *00:22* Um and so I was like that sounds *00:27* Stupid. *00:33* That sounds really dumb. *00:34* Just like dumb fun. *00:35* I'll I'll go to that. *00:36* And the tickets for like 35 bucks. *00:37* That's that's not the worst thing. *00:39* in the world. *00:40* And it's for the fruit. *00:41* So I grabbed a couple friends. *00:41* Yeah, it's for charity. *00:42* So, you know, grabbed a couple friends. *00:43* I went and um it was it was better than I expected it to be. *00:45* Like a lot better than I expected it to be. *00:51* It was so much fun. *00:53* It was so but again it was, you know, it was dumb. *00:55* It was stupid. *00:58* Did but who won? *01:00* Did iDubs win or did Dr. *01:02* Mike win? *01:04* So Dr. *01:06* Mike won, which isn't really like a crazy surprise. *01:07* Right. *01:11* He's like been boxing for ten years or something. *01:11* It was surprisingly close. *01:14* Okay. *01:16* I did not I couldn't believe it. *01:17* I think it was it at the end it had to come down to points. *01:19* And Dr. *01:23* Mike was I think fifty and i dubs was like forty-six. *01:23* So it's like a Rocky kind of story. *01:28* Yeah. *01:31* iDubbs went the ten rounds. *01:32* Did he *01:34* He went every round that they had planned out. *01:35* I think it was all all four rounds. *01:37* That's awesome. *01:39* Which was wild. *01:40* But yeah, it was uh it was a little crazy. *01:41* It was fun though. *01:45* What are there a lot of people there? *01:46* It was sold out, yeah. *01:49* That's sweet. *01:51* Shocked me there too, but yeah, it was sold out. *01:53* What was your uh favorite fight? *01:56* Oh man. *01:59* Well, it I don't even know if it was like favorite fights, more of just like moments that I really liked a lot. *02:01* Like Michael Reeves, if you know who that is. *02:09* I do. *02:12* Yeah, okay. *02:13* So you know Minecraft. *02:14* He came out to um Minecraft parody music, um, which was basically like a 12-year-old uh screaming into his mic. *02:15* Um *02:24* lyrics that he made up to Aha's take on me. *02:25* And that was hilarious. *02:29* Um and then he won, which was even *02:31* Even crazier. *02:34* Um Aaron from Game Grumps went against uh Harley from Epic Meal Time. *02:35* Um went about as much as like how you would expect it to. *02:40* Who won that one? *02:45* Oh, uh Harley won that one. *02:46* Okay, that's I thought so, but it was a big dude. *02:48* Huge dude. *02:53* And then um Chills was there. *02:54* He was like the after fight interview person. *02:56* Like the number 15 Burger King foot lettuce dude. *02:59* And he's a huge dude, dude. *03:03* He's like unbelievably tall. *03:05* Oh my gosh. *03:08* Just a very weird knight. *03:09* It sounds strange. *03:11* He's got he'll have to do it again, right? *03:12* Like there will be another one. *03:15* Yeah, I think they plan on doing another one again. *03:17* I think. *03:19* I would hope so, because I definitely want to go to it again. *03:20* That sounds really fun *03:23* It was. *03:25* It really was a good time. *03:25* You just it looked cool based on like everything I've seen about it. *03:27* Yeah, it was just like a *03:31* It was such a weird thing where it's one of those things where you can kind of tell that everyone in the room is like of the same mindset. *03:33* Like people are all chanting the same, like *03:41* memes and stuff and like people like every now and again people were just chanting like twist his d repeatedly which was really funny. *03:44* Um I think I may have cut out somehow *03:52* Yeah. *03:57* No. *03:57* You're coming too fine on our end. *03:58* One second. *04:01* Oh. *04:03* We could hear him. *04:03* I cut out during that, didn't I? *04:04* No. *04:06* We could hear you. *04:06* You were there the whole time. *04:07* Could you not hear us? *04:10* Completely. *04:11* Yeah, you guys froze up and I couldn't hear you. *04:12* Weird. *04:15* Logan, am I coming through fine on your end? *04:15* Yeah. *04:18* Okay. *04:19* Yeah. *04:21* If it happens again, I'll just very quickly drop out, drop back in. *04:22* So it's like not necessarily. *04:26* That's one of the things. *04:28* I do a full edit of the show, so if anything does happen or you gotta go to the bathroom or whatever, it's fine. *04:29* So if you're having issues *04:35* You can signal or say something in chat or whatever and sounds good. *04:37* It'll be good. *04:41* You know me with my with my plentiful issues. *04:41* I well when you said you were going to something called creator clash, my brain just went, Oh, he's just going to some convention. *04:47* Because you've gone to you go to you've gone to stuff before, so it's just like ah there's another convention in Tampa. *04:53* I'm going to one on Thursday, actually. *04:58* See *05:00* It's a it's a normal thing. *05:00* But then I saw Chris Reagan was in Tampa. *05:02* I was like, why is Chris Reagan here? *05:05* Oh yeah, he was there. *05:07* Yeah. *05:08* And I saw people like taking pictures with him or something like the day before. *05:09* I was like, oh maybe he's at the convention thing that Brian's going to. *05:13* And so I looked up Creator Clash and then it took me to iDubs and I was like, Oh my gosh, he's actually doing the boxing thing. *05:17* Because I remember back when he w *05:24* did an a a video earlier about, you know, his trying to fight rice gum. *05:26* Yeah. *05:31* And I was like, oh maybe you know, it's finally happening. *05:32* Rice gum, big old baby. *05:34* So *05:37* Didn't didn't want to go. *05:38* Which is you could argue now that because of that, we got creator clash out of it. *05:40* So it really is like a *05:45* Oh we you we came out on top, I guess. *05:47* We got something really fun out of it. *05:50* We're all the winners. *05:53* Yeah. *05:54* Except Ryce Gunn. *05:55* I don't know what he is. *05:56* I don't even know what he does. *05:57* I I still barely know who he is. *05:58* I only know Ricegum through him from iDubbs and H3H3 maybe did some stuff about him. *06:00* I don't know. *06:07* I don't remember *06:07* Maybe a while ago. *06:09* I haven't I don't know. *06:10* He's the but did it feel good though guy, right? *06:13* You know you know it from that iDub video? *06:16* Yeah, that was him. *06:19* Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that's somebody. *06:20* Oh my god. *06:23* It's coming back. *06:25* I like that that's how I r know that guy. *06:28* For that line. *06:31* I'm sure that's how a lot of people know him. *06:31* It's gotta be it's gotta be the way. *06:34* So bad. *06:38* What a what a guy. *06:40* Also, I think I may have figured out why Discord um why the call froze. *06:42* I had Unity up in the background with Songhouse Games next big project open and um Scoop. *06:49* It's a lot, so I think it How far along is that? *06:57* Um *07:00* How like to being done or to being ready to show? *07:02* I I don't know. *07:06* Whatever. *07:07* I remember you sharing screenshots of it. *07:08* I think you described some of the premise to me as well. *07:11* Very recently, yeah. *07:13* Um *07:15* Oh no, I'm talking a while ago. *07:15* Has it changed? *07:17* Yes. *07:19* Okay. *07:19* Is it a platformer? *07:20* No. *07:22* Um it changed. *07:23* We changed projects to projects *07:26* twice. *07:30* Ums like game being I didn't realize how long or how often like we were gonna start up a project and then drop it. *07:31* Um because it's tedious if you're not like *07:41* tr like super confident in what you're doing or your own abilities or if you just think the idea needs to be shelved until *07:44* you have a better idea of what it's supposed to be or if you aren't quite good enough to make it what you really want it to be, then you typically will just drop it. *07:53* Um *08:02* So now in the last um six months we've um been on this one project. *08:03* Um that was something that I came up with a while ago. *08:12* I've been working on for a good bit, and now it's finally at a state where it's like so close to being ready for us to like *08:17* show it off in like a trailer or more screenshots or something, but to like formally announce it. *08:23* Um it came from this idea from Bloodborne where there are these like *08:28* I was literally about to ask you if it was a soul slike. *08:34* Well it's not a soul slike, but it it is so I've I haven't played all of Bloodborne. *08:38* But there f what I was reading one night was there are these dungeons in Bloodborne called the Chalice Dungeons. *08:45* Mm-hmm. *08:52* And from what I know, they're like impossibly large *08:53* Um, and there are certain parts of it that are just like not very easily accessible, and people were finding new rooms and new enemies in them as er as recent as like last year. *08:58* And I was like, that is such a cool idea. *09:08* I love that. *09:10* I wish there were like I wish somebody would just make an entire game about like that type of concept. *09:11* And I was like *09:18* Oh wait I can do that. *09:19* Like, why don't I just do it? *09:23* So it's this like *09:24* That this whole idea of like you have this big like area to explore, but *09:29* the entire thing is one um is one puzzle. *09:37* So trying to um *09:42* explore that not based on like, oh, just get this key and bring it here or like get this *09:46* uh shadow to face the right way or move this block over here. *09:54* It's no, like you have all of the *09:57* tools to um figure out where you're going. *10:02* Um but it's how how deep into something are you willing to look *10:07* um and how much time and effort are you willing to um put towards figuring something out um to the point where like we have you actually closing out of the game *10:12* Um that's and looking in other places that will actually give you answers to where you can go next. *10:24* And the game is you can go *10:30* Anywhere right from the start, but no one is going to have the same path just because of how we've laid things out, how deep *10:33* You kind of have to go through layers of layers of puzzles just to find a new area. *10:41* Um you should hide things in people's like files on their computer like with uh *10:46* What's that stupid game called? *10:52* Do you want to spoil that game? *10:54* I know what it is. *10:56* Well yeah, there's like a little bit of things that I think. *11:04* That's Metal Gear Solid kind of stuff, like Psycho Manaus reading your memory card or Eternal Darkness making you think that it was deleting your game. *11:06* That kind of stuff. *11:13* Okay, so the g the game is called Well I guess if this comes out later the game will probably already be formally. *11:18* So it'll be next year at some point. *11:29* So the game is called um uh the Museum of Forgotten Space, and it is a museum that was meant to exhibit um *11:33* places that were like essentially just like lost to time that you know are kind of like time capsules on themselves. *11:46* So like *11:54* um I don't remember the name of 'em, but they're those big World War Two era like structures out in the ocean that were basically for like directing ships, um uh that were just completely abandoned or places like *11:55* Centralia Urchinogal. *12:10* And over time people stopped going to this museum *12:12* But the museum is actually like alive and so it starts to like resent um people for abandoning it the same way um *12:17* its exhibits were abandoned. *12:30* So it starts to create its own rooms, like new hallways. *12:32* Um people go missing. *12:37* Um and over time the people who work there start to find out that there are rooms *12:39* and floors of this museum that were never built and should not be there. *12:44* Um and so you have to kind of explore this place yourself and uh kind of figure out what's going on there. *12:49* But *12:56* One of the things that we had people do was actually go to the museum's website. *12:57* We bought the domain for it. *13:01* Um and it's like a website that would be for any museum, like here's where you buy your tickets, here's some of the exhibits *13:03* But hidden in the website are clues on how to progress the game. *13:09* So it'll *13:16* But there'll be like that's a back. *13:17* That's back of the box codec call level stuff. *13:20* Like look at the back of the box, Snake. *13:24* You know what? *13:26* Actually. *13:27* Let me see really quick. *13:30* I might be able to open Unity again and load up the game. *13:32* I'm trying *13:37* I have the hiccups, I don't know where they're coming from. *13:39* Uh yeah, I do actually have it up here. *13:41* But yeah, I just I love that idea that like *13:45* You know, it's these spaces that like are you know not really meant for *13:49* people to be exploring, yet they do have some sort of like hint of like man-madeness to them that you are sort of, you know *14:00* Trying to navigate and figure out why things make sense and but it's all the seat of your own wit. *14:10* You're not like *14:16* guided in any sort of direction. *14:18* So I'll show you the I'll actually stream my uh Unity window. *14:19* It's gonna look a little weird. *14:23* I'm using a um *14:25* an ultra wide monitor so it might come up stretched but that is okay also I won't take too long doing this because I know we have to get on *14:27* Um so this is the front room. *14:38* Got a sign there. *14:42* All of this is like very basic stuff, but we're using a lot of things that we haven't used before, so like screen space reflections, um bloom lighting. *14:43* All of these pictures and the paintings are placeholders. *14:52* They're gonna be changed at some point. *14:56* Um But we don't tell you *14:58* But some of these paintings you can actually walk through. *15:02* Mario 64 style. *15:05* Yeah. *15:07* Um some of them you can walk through. *15:08* There's going to be one here. *15:10* This room doesn't really have lighting yet, just because haven't *15:11* But there will be a painting here that you can actually walk through. *15:16* There's no real indication that you can do that, but there will be like hints. *15:19* Um *15:23* throughout the room um and through dialogue that you can. *15:24* And so you're in this museum, but then all of a sudden you're in this like forest that this is the screenshot and you share the picture of this forest. *15:28* Whoops. *15:36* Yeah, like there's this all of a sudden. *15:37* Um I have like *15:41* All these things that are kind of like hidden in plain sight, like if you were just to look over here and say, hey, what happens if I go through this bush? *15:45* You're in a completely new area that *15:52* You wouldn't really know was there unless you just kind of went looking for it. *15:57* Um another place that we worked on is over here. *16:01* There's going to be *16:04* Whoops, an elevator that'll take you down into this room, which isn't really done being worked on yet, um, but it's a lot of like pools and water pumps. *16:06* Um *16:19* Another one this way that was being worked on last night is through this hall. *16:21* Just this weird like *16:27* warehouse with like a small cottage in the middle of it. *16:31* Like a lot of just like very like strange. *16:36* Abstract spaces that wouldn't really make a whole lot of sense for people to uh *16:40* Make. *16:45* Um I just love that idea. *16:46* I thought it was really cool. *16:48* The lighting looks really good. *16:50* Yeah, thank you. *16:51* R right now it's one. *16:56* Just me. *16:58* But um in about because there the other two guys are working on um *17:00* a whole other project on their own. *17:05* Um, that's like very, very early. *17:07* Um so I'm letting them kinda get that off the ground while I work on this and then in about a month they're gonna join me on this project and we're gonna *17:09* You know, just push it out the door. *17:18* Not as fast as we can, but obviously we want it to like be good. *17:20* You know, Light of the Mountain is a six out of ten game. *17:23* We want this to be seven. *17:26* So *17:27* It's a good goal. *17:29* Yeah. *17:31* Just d you know, do better than we did the last time. *17:32* That's I kinda all we want for like any of the projects we work on. *17:35* It looks I like the concept. *17:38* It sounds dope. *17:40* Thanks. *17:41* It looks cool, dude. *17:42* I like how Yeah. *17:43* Maybe this is a tarnished word now, but how meta it is. *17:45* Yeah, yeah, yeah. *17:49* Yeah, this it's weird because there really isn't much like game to it. *17:52* It's more of just like *17:58* I don't even really know how I would describe it. *18:00* It's it's just like a very strange exploratory sensational. *18:02* I I guess the only thing I could compare it to is Outer Wilds, but even then, like *18:08* That has more game to it than even this does. *18:13* It's I don't know. *18:15* It's a weird little thing, but I'm pretty hyped to keep working on it and eventually show it up. *18:16* I wanna have it um I wanna have it like formally announced before the uh *18:21* before the summer is over. *18:26* Uh really before it's even halfway over. *18:27* But you know, we'll see how that goes. *18:30* Making games is extremely tedious. *18:32* I did not realize that when I started. *18:35* But it is not easy. *18:38* Well that's not it is easy, but it's not it just takes a very, very long time. *18:40* And speaking of tedious, we can get the show over. *18:44* Let's do it. *18:49* Hello everybody and welcome to Chapter Select, a seasonal podcast where we bounce back and forth between a series of games exploring their evolution, design, and legacy. *18:50* I am one of your hosts, Max Roberts, and I'm joined as always by Logan Moore. *19:00* Hi, Logan. *19:04* Hi. *19:06* We're back to doing the banjo things again. *19:07* You may one may say that this, uh, you know, is a sequel episode. *19:10* We could call it chapter selecty *19:15* We're trying to use too many of these ooey puns or not puns, but calling the season 3E *19:20* We're trying to call this a Well three E is the is the most logical name for it. *19:28* It actually it works out perfectly. *19:31* Three E they actually say in this game, which I never knew. *19:33* Yes. *19:37* They say that in Banjo Tui, and then I got to the spoiler alert for like one of the final lines in the game, but they say three. *19:38* I'm like, oh, that's where everybody got that from. *19:45* Okay. *19:48* Yes. *19:51* So we are, we're here. *19:51* This episode is all about Banjo Tui. *19:53* The previous two episodes, Kazooie, Nuts and Bolts, and this time we're talking about Tui, which was developed. *19:55* Like the rest of the Banjo Kazooie games by Rare for the Nintendo 64, um, and then later ported the Xbox 360 as well. *20:03* I didn't know this, but that port did not launch at the same time as Kazooie. *20:12* It came out months later. *20:17* It originally launched on November 20th. *20:18* 2000 and then later uh for the Xbox 360 on April 29th, 2009. *20:21* So this is after nuts and bolts and the Kazooie port. *20:27* I thought that was kind of interesting. *20:31* I think I remember that because I *20:32* Not to get too much into the history part of it, but I I think I bought the Kazooie port on 360 as soon as it came out, but I totally forgot until rare replay that Tui came over as well. *20:34* So yeah. *20:45* It's very interesting that *20:46* They wouldn't have launched together. *20:48* Maybe there's some history on that that I've I haven't read about. *20:50* It was uh directed by Greg Mails, who was one of the two directors on Kazooie. *20:53* The *21:00* I'm blanking on his name now. *21:01* I really shouldn't it be George Andreas. *21:02* He went on to direct Donkey Kong 64, so they kind of split. *21:04* It'd almost be like *21:08* For me, at least the the Naughty Dog parlance is be like if Bruce Straeley went off to direct something and Neil Druckmann went off to direct something is kind of the the idea in that pairing. *21:09* I couldn't find anyone listed as a producer for this game in my research. *21:18* And I think part of that is because all of the credits were *21:24* these old rare banjo Kazoe games are funny and they all have nicknames, so it's not real specific roles. *21:28* So I didn't see anyone specifically labeled as a producer. *21:36* uh in my research. *21:39* Um but then the music again was done by Grant Kirkhope, uh leading that trail there *21:41* It got a 90 out of 100 on Metacritic, so a little bit lower than the original game. *21:47* And then the 360 port is a 73 out of 100. *21:52* So *21:55* That is kind of the summation, a little bit of history and context for Banjo Tui, but I wanted to dive right in uh with our show and our guest. *21:56* Brian Hinkin, welcome to the show. *22:06* Hello. *22:08* How's everybody doing tonight? *22:09* Oh, you know, talking to you, talking to Logan, talking about Banjo Tooie. *22:11* Sounds awful. *22:17* This man hates Banjo Tooie. *22:22* He came out and said it right away. *22:24* That or he hates us. *22:26* One or the other. *22:28* It was a long con. *22:30* He just wanted to get on a public forum to uh to diss us. *22:31* Of course, of course. *22:35* He's been playing in this for years. *22:36* You I love you guys. *22:38* And Banjo Touie, really. *22:39* It's all a meme, it's all a meme. *22:41* We love you. *22:43* Well I g we can use that right there. *22:45* You love Banjo Touie. *22:49* Um *22:51* What what is your guys' histories with this game? *22:52* I feel like mine is unique, but I'm also biased because it's mine. *22:55* But like Brian, what *22:59* What is your experience in with Banjo 2, Ely? *23:01* So I'll start by saying that if I were *23:05* If I were to play this game for the first time as a 26-year-old man, I would probably hate it. *23:11* Hi, that's me. *23:19* I'll get to that in a second. *23:21* But no, I played um I played Banjo the first one um probably not long after it came out. *23:24* I was about four. *23:33* Um *23:34* And then I played this I didn't even realize that this game had that Tui had come out. *23:35* I just happened to see it in GameStop one day, like already on the shelf. *23:42* But I do it's really strange. *23:46* I have this weird memory of playing it at a at in in target at one of the demo kiosks, and for some reason *23:48* In my in my brain, I remember playing like on in Spiral Mountain and I remember it being raining for some reason. *23:58* I don't know why that is, because that's clearly not how it is in the game. *24:08* That's not how it is in any of the beta footage or anything. *24:11* But so that would be like my first, I guess, like introduction to it *24:15* It is this memory. *24:20* When it starts, yeah. *24:22* But I specifically remember jumping over the broken bridge while it's raining. *24:23* Which doesn't make sense, right? *24:27* So *24:29* tha I guess that's where it starts is like a half memory of that game. *24:30* But actually playing it for the first time, um *24:34* I I loved it because it it was it's weird. *24:39* I I was a little too young. *24:42* I was about five years old when I played the game for the first time, so I didn't really uh understand *24:44* the concept of like, you know, maybe I should make a new save and play through this game on my own. *24:51* I just kinda played through the first file that was already on there, um which had the game mostly beaten. *24:56* So what I was doing is I was exploring like *25:01* a game that was already beaten and just kind of experiencing the world rather than experiencing the actual game. *25:04* So it's kind of a weird way to *25:11* quote unquote play that game but immediately I noticed that like wow banjo too we is much darker than the first first game *25:15* And it it kind of had me a little uneasy playing it for the first time, but I I just I loved it. *25:26* I don't know why I always just have this like weird *25:32* Like love for games that are kind of like dark but not like overly spooky. *25:36* Just I don't know. *25:42* It it's weird. *25:43* I I I I really liked it for that reason. *25:44* And then eventually I I beat it. *25:46* I I think I was a teenager when I beat the game for the first time. *25:49* But um Of course uh not as much as I like the first one, but I do like the game quite a bit *25:52* Well, love hate, but you know, I'm sure we'll get to that later. *25:59* Let I'll be the bridge to you, Logan. *26:04* Uh because like Brian *26:07* I didn't own this game as a child, but I didn't play it as a kid. *26:10* And that was because the kids across the street got all the cool new toys and they had Banjo Touie. *26:14* And so I would go over to this kid David's house. *26:20* and play this game upstairs in like their playroom or whatever with them. *26:23* And that's pretty much how I experienced most of this game. *26:27* It was there was just this *26:30* golden period of time in two thousand, I would have been like six years old. *26:32* Just going over to the friend's house, playing this game, and like every time you came over *26:37* There was a new world to explore because David was playing the game when I wasn't there. *26:41* It wasn't like uh just me. *26:46* So this would have been in Indy, right? *26:48* Yeah, yeah. *26:50* And so I'm playing this game through my neighbor, but also playing it at his house, you know, with him. *26:51* Like we were passing a troller and taking turns. *26:57* And so I never owned Banjo Kaz never played Banjo Kazooie until this um this show. *27:00* And so my really my only tie to Banjo was Tooie and then later playing Grunty's buying Grunty's Revenge as a kid for my Game Boy. *27:08* But like that's how I *27:17* f played this game was through this and then now you have to think twenty years later over twenty years, geez. *27:19* I have like nostalgia glasses. *27:27* My rose tinted glasses are on for a game that I didn't even own or even really play fully in depth. *27:29* And so I *27:35* um coming back to it in the year 2022 was a very interesting experience. *27:36* Um and then I think Logan *27:42* You did you even play this as a kid? *27:45* Yeah, so I so I had a similar experiences. *27:47* You like I used to go, you know, typical *27:50* 90s kid thing and go rent games from Blockbuster all the time. *27:54* So like I knew this game existed and I had Banjo Kazooie and I loved that game. *27:57* So I knew there was a sequel. *28:02* Um and maybe I ran it from Blockbuster a time or two. *28:04* Um, but I also remember a neighbor kid having the game as well, and I think that was maybe my first exposure to it. *28:08* Because I the thing that really stood out to me wasn't the cartridge green for it, right? *28:16* I believe. *28:21* I'm sure it's a name. *28:23* It's a normal cart. *28:24* Green was like an army game. *28:25* Yeah, for some reason I think this game had a green cartridge in my head. *28:30* I don't know why. *28:35* Anyway, the label is green. *28:36* Yeah, that's probably just all I'm thinking of then. *28:39* If for some reason the green label got extended to the whole cartridge. *28:42* Anyway, it doesn't matter. *28:47* I I know a neighbor kid had it and it maybe I borrowed it from him or *28:48* Maybe I just r rented it from Blockbuster. *28:51* All I know is I played a little bit of it when I was younger. *28:55* I think I got up to Witchy World. *28:57* Then I pretty much stopped after that. *28:59* Um *29:02* And yeah, I never beat it. *29:03* And I never really had any sort of but as a kid I never beat Banjo Kazooie either. *29:06* It wasn't until I was a teen, kinda like with what Brian said it. *29:11* I went back and I played the 360 version of Kazooie and I beat that and then I tried to do the same th I've actually tried to play Tui a couple different times. *29:14* I tried to play it once on 360, I want to say, and I bounced off it. *29:23* I think I tried to play it again when Rare Replay came out and I stopped again. *29:28* And then this time now I've beat it, so. *29:33* Yeah, I it's it's just I I don't know, it's actually kind of weird that I've never played this game. *29:36* Um because I like Banjo Kazooie so much. *29:41* Like when I ever I talk about the video game franchise franchises that I feel the most uh *29:44* love for, it's probably up there. *29:51* But yeah, I'd never played this until now. *29:53* And now I have very complicated feelings on this game, if I'm being honest. *29:56* Because like Brian said, playing this for the first time when I'm a *30:01* 27-year-old man like Banjo Kazooie when we replayed that. *30:04* Actually, I'll be honest, like Banjo Kazooie, I'll just talk about general impressions of Tui now, if that's fine with you, Max. *30:08* That's fine. *30:15* Because I'm sure I'm sure because I know that's the direction we're headed in. *30:15* Banjo-Kazooie I have like general uh nostalgia for for sure. *30:18* But when we played that game for this this time around again, I thought it held up incredibly well in a general sense. *30:23* I I I think that game is still very tight. *30:29* I think all those levels are very well designed. *30:32* This game by comparison feels just so bloated and like unneeded in a lot of ways, and it is really hard to play by modern standards. *30:35* Um *30:46* It's very clear that they took a lot of bad ideas from DK64, which is a game I don't think is bad. *30:47* But like the lessons, like the things that they took from Donkey Kong 64 and were like, hey, what kind of things should we pull from this Donkey Kong game we made? *30:57* Oh, how about the large levels in *31:05* Let's put that in Banjo tweet. *31:08* It was very much just like a bigger is better type of era. *31:10* And uh I don't think that's great going back to I have other complaints too and we'll get into it. *31:14* But I mean yeah, general s *31:19* General Impressions is just, yeah, because this game is too large, and that leads to other issues, which I will *31:21* That's such an easy way to like think about making a sequel though back then because it's like how do you expand on like an idea that works so well? *31:30* Literally expand it, like make it bigger, make this like take longer so you get more game for your game. *31:39* But like Especially because 3D uh level design was like still *31:45* in its infancy kind of. *31:50* So people of course were wanting to be like, oh well, yeah, let's go bigger. *31:51* Bigger bigger will for sure be better. *31:55* I mean, 'cause eventually we got to stuff like GTA three coming out a couple of years later, which was *31:57* really revolutionary, but yeah. *32:03* And I think that actually has kind of been a prominent game design focus, honestly up to today. *32:06* Like *32:13* Look at Horizon Forbidden West. *32:14* Like that game is absurdly massive and I think very padded. *32:17* Um *32:22* with its side quests and other things to do. *32:23* Like that mentality is maintained. *32:25* And that translates directly to certain people thinking, you know *32:27* Well, a game's not worth it if I don't get a hundred hours out of it. *32:32* Like price and time spent is a ratio that matters to a lot of people. *32:35* And I think that mentality was definitely the case in 2000. *32:41* Now I think this game is like straight up twice as long as Kazooie 2. *32:45* Like it was for me at least. *32:49* My *32:51* Personally my clock time was like twelve hours for Kazooie in about eighteen hours, so it was about a six hour difference. *32:52* Okay. *32:57* I I got through Kazooie in probably *32:58* You also had played kazoo you knew Kazooie though, and I was blind. *33:01* So that's that's definitely a factor there. *33:05* Mine's probably even bigger. *33:08* Like I *33:09* I I do one hundred percent speed runs of Kazooie and I can beat that game in close to I think maybe even under five hours. *33:11* But I am not nearly as familiar with this one, so it was about like *33:20* 16 17 hours for me. *33:25* It's it's long. *33:28* Yeah. *33:29* And like I totally get the whole like let's make Donkey Kong 64 what Donkey Kong 64 is *33:30* And then basically make Donkey Kong 64 too. *33:36* But with for all the wrong reasons. *33:40* Like I love Donkey Kong 64. *33:42* It's like my favorite game of all time. *33:44* I will be the first person to tell you that that game straight up is not good. *33:46* But I can't help but love it. *33:51* But Banjo Tui is just like, ugh I can't I don't understand it. *33:53* I I think the *33:59* I I don't know how deep we want uh screw it. *34:01* We may as well get it deep into this conversation now. *34:03* I I think the m the weirdest thing I can say about this game, and I don't know if I said this to you, Max, because I was trying to keep this. *34:06* From you uh before we talk secret secrets from me? *34:14* Not a secret, but I don't think I said we try not to talk too much about the games we're playing before we record this show, obviously. *34:19* The one of my biggest takeaways from this game is, wow, Super Mario Odyssey is a very good game because that game has very large levels *34:26* But they fill it with so much stuff that you feel like that sense of accomplishment constantly. *34:35* The biggest problem with this for me, this for two with Tui for me *34:41* Is that the levels are like three to four or five times bigger than a lot of the levels in Kazooie. *34:44* But the jiggies are it's always ten, like it was in in the last game. *34:50* And so those ten jiggies are *34:55* diluted way more throughout the level and it's ha it's way harder to know where to go. *34:57* It's way harder to know what like the points of interest are on the map. *35:02* Like if if you if you get into a level like Freeze Easy Peak, for example, it's *35:06* Like, okay, something involving this Christmas tree's gonna give me a jiggy, something involving this snowman's gonna give me a jiggy, there's these bears over here that's gonna give me a jiggy, there's this walrus back there. *35:10* Like you immediately know in a lot of the Kazoe levels, like the points of interest. *35:21* That was like that this was one of my hard the hardest things about Tui for me is that I did not know what things I was supposed to interact with to get the jiggies in a lot of these levels. *35:25* Like I consulted a guide a lot on this game. *35:37* Um or I I should say at least in like the back half of the game, I I did for sure. *35:40* So I think it's interesting *35:45* I wanna jump into the gameplay side of it, but I wanna keep thinking about just the time in which this game came out. *35:48* S two thousand, N64 *35:55* Rare is on fire. *35:58* They are putting out a ton of games. *36:00* Logan, you and I were talking about this, you know, not terribly long ago. *36:02* I mean Goldeneye was ninety-seven, DiddyCon Racing was ninety-seven, Banjo Kazoo is ninety-eight. *36:05* You know, Jet Force Gemini, Donkey Hunts 64, Perfect Dark, Banjo Tui, like all of Conquers Bad Fur Day, and that's not counting all of the other licensed games or uh portable games that they were also making the time. *36:12* They were just cranking games out. *36:24* But also around this time you've got Ocarina of Time came out before um was Ocarina in ninety eight? *36:25* It was ninety eight, right? *36:33* Yeah. *36:34* And then Majora's Mask was on the horizon there in two thousand. *36:35* So *36:38* you have to think that developers were also pulling in from at least in that era of making these kind of big world games, pulling in, like how do you not look at *36:39* Hyrule field and go, how do we bring that over into like what we're doing? *36:48* And I think you s I think I see a lot of that kind of inspiration. *36:53* In Banjo Tui. *36:57* There's a scale and a sense of place. *36:58* This really is an open world game. *37:01* Like w at least when I look at it, I go, this is a large space to explore and interact with. *37:05* Now the depth of that isn't what you would find maybe today. *37:11* Yeah. *37:15* That's why I invoke Odyssey, is because Odyssey has those sprawling worlds and levels and stuff, but it's just, yeah, there's so much more in them. *37:17* Like there are literally *37:26* N eight or nine hundred collectibles in that game to get in Super Mario Odyssey. *37:29* Compared to this, it's just the static *37:34* What like 90, I think? *37:36* 90 to 100. *37:37* Odyssey really is like the uh here's how you take Donkey Kong 64 and Banjo Tui and do it correctly sort of game. *37:38* It definitely feels a lot like that now that I'm thinking about it. *37:46* Yeah. *37:50* Well I think the key part of that, because I also wrote about Super Mario Odyssey in my notes, which I find kind of interesting. *37:51* that we kind of we approach that the same way Logan. *37:58* Yeah, I mean I I kept thinking of that game like the whole time I was playing this. *38:01* I was just like, dude, like it took fi took fifteen to twenty years, but they g they got a good version of this style of game they're trying to make here. *38:04* It's further down the road. *38:12* And I think the key difference, and this can launch us right into our gameplay, is in Super Mario Odyssey, Mario *38:14* has all of his moves up front. *38:22* Now granted, the hat lets you play as other things and those reveal a new type of move. *38:25* But Mario's core *38:30* Mac everything you need to collect a moon in that game, you have from the very start of the game. *38:32* And in Banjo Tui *38:39* You do not. *38:41* You are learning at least two moves in every world. *38:42* This is another one of my big issues that you're naturally bringing up with the game, for sure. *38:45* On top of every move that you have from the first game, too. *38:50* Yeah, I thought this would be a great way to come into gameplay. *38:54* And so I c I kinda wanna kick this off because as a kid and as someone over the past twenty years, this is one of my defending points for Tui of like why I thought this was a better game. *38:56* was because you could do so much more mechanically with banjo and kazooe. *39:09* I loved as a kid splitting them up on the split-up pads. *39:13* I thought all of the different ammo types for Kazooie were really fun and inventive. *39:18* I thought the different shoes, the way you could climb up the walls, all of this appealed to my six-year-old brain *39:24* I was like, this is awesome. *39:31* This is so exciting and new. *39:34* And as an adult, all that is *39:36* is padding. *39:39* We will make this the longest game possible, um, because y not only do you have to find *39:41* a split-up pad, but you also have to take Bandra over here and Kazooie over there, and then you've got to bring Mumbo over here. *39:47* And it was just this it's a it's this web of just tiny little tasks and backtracking. *39:54* that today does not hold up, but as a kid it was so cool and exciting. *40:01* Well, there I think if you you could go a little bit deeper with that and say that like *40:07* I don't even know if it's just today, but it could also be like, you know, sit a six-year-old down in front of Banjo Tui right now and what are they gonna think? *40:13* Was it because when you're a six-year-old you have unlimited time *40:22* And so when the game stretches itself out, maybe that is fun because wow I get to play the game even longer. *40:26* But as an adult with limited time, you're like, I have to sit here longer with this and it's *40:32* midnight and I have to go to bed soon. *40:37* As an adult who's trying to be at a game to record a podcast to talk about the game. *40:38* Yeah, 'cause I felt that. *40:43* So is it like is it because you're a kid like you have more time and you want to play that game longer, or is it like *40:45* No, that really just is annoying. *40:52* Cause it could just be annoying. *40:54* It probably is. *40:56* I think game is the c game literacy was probably also a part of it. *40:57* I mean at six years old *41:01* My experience with games at that point was whatever I had on the N64 in a Game Boy. *41:03* I think so that's a part of it. *41:07* Your angle on time *41:10* is another thing, and then this game was designed for kids. *41:12* Like the target audience of the N64. *41:17* And I just think *41:19* A lot of those decisions reflect that, like the powers and things were very, I think, kid focused. *41:21* What's not to love about grenade eggs or remote control bombs or *41:26* fire and ice dragons and like s you know, just uh it's designed for kids. *41:33* I you know, that's kind of what I thought. *41:39* Off that point though *41:42* There's so much here that it's hard to know what you're supposed to do sometimes. *41:45* Again, like not only not only do I not know *41:50* the points on the map that I'm sp it that it specifically wants me to interact with, but even once I do find something that I'm like, I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to do something here. *41:54* I didn't always *42:04* know the answers. *42:05* The thing that bothered me the most, and this is the great sin that you brought up with our Kazooie episode, Max, is that I believe it's when you get to freeze-easy peak. *42:07* Uh Gobi Desert Freeze Easy Peak. *42:18* Yeah. *42:21* When you get to Freeze Easy Peak and you unlock that level in Kazooie *42:22* It is the only level in the game where it there is a jiggy in that level that you can't access because you have to get an uh ability from another world that you haven't been to yet, which requires you to then backtrack later. *42:26* That happens constantly in Tui. *42:39* There were so many times in this game that I ran into things. *42:43* Like the one off the top of my head is I ran into the *42:47* uh the turtle in Jolly Rogers Lagoon. *42:51* He's like, I need my egg hatch. *42:55* Can you get me to hatch this egg? *42:57* And I was like, okay, sure. *42:59* And like I tried everything I could think of to get this egg hatch. *43:00* I'm like, yeah, I don't know. *43:03* And then like two levels. *43:05* Did you put a grenade at it? *43:06* I tried everything, yeah. *43:07* His reaction when you shoot a grenade at it is hilarious. *43:09* Yeah. *43:12* I I I yeah, I tried to do like everything and it wasn't until I think a level or two later when it's like, oh, you learned the hatch ability. *43:12* You can now hatch eggs. *43:19* I'm like *43:21* Okay, great. *43:21* So I wasted five or ten minutes of a level two levels ago trying to hatch this stupid egg and the ability to get that was levels away. *43:22* Like that happens *43:31* A lot in this game. *43:34* I don't know what the exact count is for the number of times that it happens, but it happens quite frequently. *43:35* And that's such a situational move too that is rarely used. *43:43* So it's almost like insulting that of of course like hatching an egg by literally hatching it. *43:47* Yeah, there's there's a couple like there are certain moves in the game that yeah I I think you only use a handful of times like the gr all the different grenade types obviously *43:54* There's the Kazooie torpedo underwater, there's the different shoes. *44:05* I remember the first time I even noticed that thing happening at all was I I think the *44:10* very first level there's a boulder to get into a uh like a little underground temple and I instantly knew like oh yeah 'cause I played this game before, I need to go get the drill move. *44:15* That's not until the next level, which means I have to come all the way back here. *44:26* Oh my god, I forgot what game I was playing. *44:30* Cause it really is just like Roadblock after roadblock after roadblock, and it's just disappointment out of the city. *44:33* And it's exasperated because of how big it is *44:41* Two. *44:43* It's like they are not helping each other. *44:44* Not only do you have to backtrack constantly, but you are backtracking through this huge world that they have built. *44:46* So it's like *44:53* That much more annoying. *44:55* And I know they've put the teleportation pads around the levels to kind of make it a little bit more easier in some senses. *44:56* Um *45:02* But yeah, it uh it that was really and some of the steps you have to take to some of these, like the I think the most baffling one in the whole game *45:03* uh is the one where the bears again on Jolly Rogers Lagoon are like our pool's been uh poisoned or whatever and it's like okay cool it and then you figure out *45:12* how to turn off the sludge or whatever, and they're like, now it's cold or n yeah, now it's too uh hot. *45:23* And it's like, well, what the heck am I supposed to do about that? *45:28* And then it takes to like three or four levels later when you find an ice cube in the sky. *45:31* And then you have to knock the ice cube out of the sky, land it in a pool of water on another level, then you have to go to that level, and then you have to let the water uh it's just like, what is what is this? *45:37* Like, why am I having to go to *45:50* Three or four different worlds here to just get one jiggy and that's a thing. *45:52* One jiggy. *45:57* Like you're you're not uh *45:58* The game even pokes fun at this at one point too. *46:00* That was just what I was gonna bring. *46:03* The one with the dinosaur the one with the dinosaurs? *46:04* Mm-hmm. *46:07* Yeah, because you do all those steps and then you get to the dinosaurs and uh the you *46:07* The dinosaur mom gives you the jiggy and Kazooie's like, wow, just one jiggy, I feel like we did a lot more to deserve I feel like we did a lot more here to deserve a little bit more. *46:12* And she's like, Nope, just one. *46:21* She just she just says no, just stone cold, which is actually really funny. *46:23* I another *46:29* We may have used the uh the same guide at uh I don't know if you I was using Game Facts in particular. *46:30* Uh I like to be period accurate. *46:39* So I was reading an actual like *46:40* FAQ to the whole thing. *46:43* But one of the the particular guide I found for this game was actually really, really good. *46:44* I'll link it in the show notes, but *46:49* I I pasted a quote from it. *46:52* This is in regards to the aliens in uh Hailfire *46:54* uh peak, mountain, whatever it was called, where you have to use Mumbo to like revive the dad, and then you gotta go get Banjo and Kazooia back onto the ice side. *47:01* Mumbo's on the fire side, so you gotta bring them back. *47:10* to start getting the aliens. *47:13* You have to use banjo to op break the ice to free the alien. *47:14* One of the alien kids is dead, so you've got to bring Mumbo back. *47:18* So that's the context of this one. *47:23* And so You also have to get them to leave their UFO at the bottom of the ocean first to even start this whole chain of events. *47:24* This is also true at Jolly Roder, yes, to even get this to happen. *47:32* But uh the guy the the writer wrote the first kid is found right below Mumbo Pad near Wumba's wigwam build drip, whatever, blah blah blah. *47:35* But what's this? *47:43* Another dead alien G's. *47:44* They really need to learn how to adapt to the climate. *47:46* Bring Mumbo back again. *47:48* And then in parentheses, ah, all this going back and forth. *47:50* And end quote, and parentheses, to raise him from the dead. *47:54* Like even the writer of a guide in it their free time was like, this is too much, just back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. *47:57* Yeah. *48:04* And I think that has like a really like bad unintended effect of like when you've played the game before multiple times like I have. *48:05* Like on this playthrough, I'm sitting here thinking like obviously we're not doing a 100% playthrough, or at least I was not. *48:14* I wasn't so now I'm picking and choosing *48:22* What Jiggies I should go for based on what's gonna annoy me the most. *48:25* That's what I did. *48:29* Like yeah, so I'm like I don't even know if I did the alien one *48:30* 'Cause I I think I may have started it and I was like you know what? *48:33* It's not worth it. *48:36* I realized how long that one was going to be and I'm like, yeah, I think I'm gonna go look to do another one here. *48:37* Yeah. *48:42* Like I get it, because if you're gonna have these big worlds *48:43* Sure, put things in it to make it interesting, but if you're not, you're really gonna have these these objectives like spread out amongst them and it's gonna be kind of like *48:47* sprinkled on, there is something to be said of like, wow, I'm running around this all the time, I'm backtracking, and I'm really learning the level. *48:58* That's kind of a cool thing, but *49:07* what you're getting out of it doesn't reward you for how much you're backtracking. *49:09* It it's done so well in in games like um like Metroid um or like some of the later Castlevania games where like *49:15* Exploring the world as much as you're exploring it is rewarding you for doing that, whereas in this you're getting one jiggy for essentially *49:23* you know, 20 minutes of work, whereas in the first game I can get through an entire world 100% in about the same amount of time. *49:33* Yeah in in certain cases. *49:41* So I I get it like I understand what they're going for, but it just doesn't work the same way. *49:43* And I think it's funny that Max brought up that like this is a kid's game *49:50* Again, some of these solutions for some of these jiggies are just it it's adventure game logic. *49:54* I know Max has brought this up before. *50:01* It is just totally Logan, we're on the same wavelength tonight. *50:03* Yeah, it is. *50:05* Adventure game was my analogy *50:06* Yeah, it's it's total old school adventure game logic where you're just having to do these things that don't really make any sense whatsoever until you look up a guide and you're like, oh I guess I have to *50:08* Get an ice cube to fall out of the sky to go into this pool of water that can then go into this other pool of water that can cool off. *50:21* Really? *50:30* Yeah. *50:31* That's what you push the ice cube guy off for? *50:32* Yeah. *50:34* Oh, he cools that. *50:35* He lands in the fire. *50:36* Oh, I didn't even think he lands in the fire and then you go to the. *50:37* And he killed his wife *50:39* Yeah, I did too. *50:41* Okay. *50:42* They're both dead. *50:43* Sorry. *50:44* I think the first time I had that moment, like just a complete pacalm was like *50:45* Um in the la I can't remember the the last world's name. *50:49* It's in the clouds. *50:53* Cuckoo Cloudland? *50:54* Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, that one. *50:55* Where the water you break the boulder at the bottom and the water comes down and it fills up that pool. *50:57* For the dinosaur to drink out of. *51:02* I I was like, you've got to be kidding me. *51:04* Like that was the answer. *51:07* Like I had to go like an entire world over, go completely out of my way. *51:08* Like *51:11* This is coming from the guy who made a game where the answer to a puzzle is to pause your game for 30 seconds. *51:12* And even I thought that this was stupid. *51:17* I I couldn't like *51:19* I just can't wrap my head around a game that's made for like six to ten year olds being this obtuse. *51:21* I just it's just so weird. *51:28* I know we want to rank the levels here in a second. *51:30* Again, I'm not trying to transition for you, but I I did want to ask a couple other specific things associated with gameplay before we really move on. *51:32* Because this game adds a couple *51:41* other like a couple other gameplay features that I'm just curious how we all feel in a journal sense. *51:43* Um and those things would be Mumbo *51:49* A lot more mini games to get the jiggies. *51:53* Um I guess the stuff with Wumba and the new transformations *51:56* And there's something else, but I can't think of it right now. *52:02* Oh, I guess the first the first person stuff is really prominent. *52:05* That's what else I was thinking of. *52:07* Um *52:09* What is everybody's impressions on all of those things? *52:10* I think play I can start, I guess. *52:13* Mump playing is mumbo's cool in theory, but I don't think it's anything more than just extra backtracking a lot of times. *52:15* And that's my *52:22* problem with it. *52:24* Um the first person stuff it it just feels like oh yeah Doom was popular at the time. *52:25* Let's do something like that. *52:32* Like I just get *52:33* Total doom vibes from from all of those sequences for sure. *52:35* And it feels unneeded. *52:39* Um *52:41* The minigames were not great, but not horrible either. *52:42* And then what else did I say? *52:46* Um Wumba. *52:48* Oh yeah. *52:50* The transformations in this game I will say are better. *52:50* They're great. *52:53* They're a lot better than the last game. *52:54* That's the one thing I think is better than Kazooie app, honestly. *52:56* Although you can't s you still can't do a lot with them, honestly *53:00* But they're better. *53:03* Transformations are better. *53:06* Um who you get them from, I think is the weirdest decision of all, because for me, it should have still been Mumbo. *53:08* I think the reason that Mumbo is even playable at all is because Banjo Kazoe was as popular as it was putting *53:18* playable mumbo on the back of the box is a cool way to get people to want to play. *53:27* Um I think that they made him playable *53:32* Just for a bullet point, just to say you can do this. *53:35* If you had given Banjo a magic wand or like an extra move *53:40* You could have him just do all the same things Mumbo does and then cut out an extra the like 10-15 minutes of walking back and forth. *53:45* I don't really feel like it's needed. *53:53* I I think it it really just is extra padding *53:55* Um I Like I just don't understand. *53:58* There's a lot of weird decisions I just don't get. *54:01* What were we gonna say, Max? *54:05* I *54:06* I'm looking at the back of the box for Contro Tui. *54:08* The second bullet says play as Mumbo. *54:12* Now you're gonna take control of the button-headed Shaman himself. *54:15* I didn't even know that. *54:19* Mumbo is on the front of the box. *54:21* He is next to Banjo and Kazooie. *54:23* He's also on the same presented the same way on the cartridge. *54:26* I mean it's not *54:29* I see and I'm reading oh my gosh. *54:30* The third bullet, me humba wumba. *54:32* She'll transform Danjo into a number of objects, such as walking-talking statue, a tidy-whitey shooting washer. *54:35* Wait, can we actually talk about that too? *54:44* You mentioned the box, like Mumbos on the box. *54:46* Mm-hmm. *54:49* Can we just talk about for a moment? *54:50* How god awful the box art is for this game. *54:52* It's it's really just characters. *54:55* Sucks. *54:58* Yeah, I do not like it. *54:58* I really just *54:59* First one's so much more iconic. *55:01* Yes. *55:03* Yes. *55:03* I it's a it's a small tangent, but I just cannot stand how like games with any sort of recognition will just put their character on the front of the box and call it a day. *55:04* I love *55:14* Cool unique box art. *55:15* Banjo one has such awesome box art. *55:17* Um even nuts and bolts has some pretty *55:20* Pretty freaking cool box art. *55:23* Tui just does not. *55:25* I don't I don't get it. *55:27* Like I get it's the whole thing of like Halo 3's coming out. *55:28* We're not even gonna put the word Halo in the trailer. *55:31* It's just gonna be the number three. *55:34* You know what this is. *55:35* Like, it's sorta that thing, but I wanted some cool art, man. *55:36* Give me something. *55:40* Show me what this game's about. *55:41* It's interesting too because if you look at the other N64 games that Rare was putting out at the time, the other boxes are good too. *55:43* Donkey Kong 64 is exciting. *55:50* It shows you at least all of the characters doing something dynamic. *55:52* Being in the minecart and you see Kinkei rule and it's like you get an expansion pack and a yellow cart. *55:56* Like it, you know, it's an exciting box. *56:01* A golden eye, just straight up iconic, you know, bond. *56:03* With his l extra long lip? *56:07* I can't not see that. *56:10* Now that I think about Changa's best and crit you know what I'm talking about? *56:15* The long lip can't be real. *56:18* That's not it's his it's the space between his thumb and his and his index finger, I think, but it really looks like a long lip. *56:20* Oh my gosh, it did oh wow, that's w no, I can't. *56:27* You'll never not be able to see it now. *56:30* Oh you've ruined this box for me now *56:31* I can't believe they actually put players Mumbo on the box and I didn't know that. *56:34* But that's what it feels like, right? *56:39* You you feel like there's no real *56:40* like purpose for it other than that. *56:43* I have to admit, I've I love it. *56:46* I love Mumbo. *56:48* And that is pure that is pure nostalgia talking. *56:50* That is *56:53* That was a selling point to me in in the way not that I was like played Kazooie and was waiting for Tui. *56:54* I just thought playing as Mumbo was really, really cool. *57:00* And at the time, I didn't really grasp that all he does is actually the same thing he did in Kazooie, just a playable version. *57:04* Kazooie, the transformations, all they are are new means to get somewhere. *57:14* A switch, if you will. *57:18* And all Mumbo does in Tui is be the switch himself. *57:20* Go stand on a Mumbo pad and make something happen. *57:24* And sometimes that's a bit more engaging, like in uh the mayhem temple, you are the statue and you get a couple of jiggy or open a couple of doors and get a jiggy that way. *57:27* Or something not as dynamic like do a raindance in Cloud Cuckoo Land that makes like a rainbow bridge. *57:37* And so it's interesting that Mumbo actually retains the same level of *57:44* like impact just slightly d more engaging, but then humba wumba *57:49* They invent a whole new character whose dynamic with Mumbo I think is very funny. *57:57* The two of them competing like to be the best shaman uh in town, I think is really fun. *58:02* But also her transformations are way more *58:07* Interesting. *58:11* Sure, it's still moving somewhere in probably one or two moves, but the diversity is way better than what it was in Kazooie. *58:11* A dinosaur, a washing machine, a truck. *58:19* Um *58:22* A little statue that you play kickball with, you know, it's just way cooler. *58:23* Allow you to go into a toilet though. *58:30* That's the big problem. *58:32* I'm sorry. *58:33* I would consider that. *58:35* Toilet humor was uh pushed to the side in this one. *58:36* Did you like the first person stuff at all? *58:40* Oh to me that was just Goldeneye. *58:42* That was like let's take our Goldeneye engine and put it in banjo. *58:44* Sort of, yeah. *58:47* I only did two of them. *58:48* We have to do it for the final fight, for sure. *58:52* Oh, that's right. *58:54* That sucks. *58:56* That's bad. *58:56* But that's we'll talk about the final fight specifically. *58:57* That's *58:59* There is something interesting though with that, because I mentioned this before we really started like the podcast. *59:00* I mentioned that I'm playing on a Nintendo 64. *59:06* you guys played on the Xbox, which means on those first person sections you you guys had some form *59:10* rudimentary as it is, of dual analog control. *59:19* I did not. *59:24* The first person section. *59:26* The first person's sections were absolutely brutal for me. *59:29* Aiming and moving with the same stick *59:35* is um not fun. *59:38* And there are buttons the the C buttons, up down, left, right, where you could very easily just say, hey, you know, this is left, right, up down *59:41* Um because even in the Xbox versions you are I I think you can look up and down *59:52* But it's like you can't really do it diagonally. *01:00:00* You're either gonna look up, you're gonna look down, you're gonna look left, you're gonna look right look right. *01:00:03* Um those C buttons on the N64 only I believe they only strafe left to right *01:00:07* Um, so I had to do all the aiming and moving with one analog stick and um that *01:00:13* That Target San boss fight in in the very first world of the game um really made me wanna um put my head through my TV. *01:00:22* That was *01:00:31* Unbelievably hard and all for the wrong reasons. *01:00:32* It was just my setup. *01:00:35* And the whole time I couldn't help thinking that man, if I had been playing this on an Xbox *01:00:37* This would be a breeze. *01:00:42* I would have no issue with it. *01:00:43* But I guess that's just something that I didn't notice back in the day on an N64. *01:00:45* 'Cause it was all I had. *01:00:52* I I remember like playing GoldenEye all the time. *01:00:53* Yeah, and that was fine. *01:00:56* And then I played um Halo for the first time. *01:00:58* My first *01:01:01* dual analog shooter and I remember saying to myself, this is too confusing, why didn't they just keep it like Goldeneye? *01:01:02* As a kid. *01:01:07* Obviously that's a stupid thing to say. *01:01:08* Um but man it just made it so much harder for me. *01:01:11* So to the point where like I knew there was a first person section uh a first person shooter section coming up in the second world after in Glitter Gulch mine *01:01:14* And I just avoided it because I didn't want to deal with that. *01:01:24* That's right. *01:01:27* There's one in that level. *01:01:28* I forgot. *01:01:29* Yeah. *01:01:29* Yeah, there's more in this game than you're thinking of. *01:01:29* For sure. *01:01:32* Yeah, they're in there. *01:01:33* I want to talk about the story before we get to Grunty. *01:01:34* The story in this game is Grunty's back two years later, waha ha ha. *01:01:37* And *01:01:44* We have to stop her. *01:01:45* She starts as Logan put it on um our nuts and bolts episode, she just starts a nuking a bunch of people, the ginjos and bottles. *01:01:46* And so the goal is we've gotta go get jiggies to stop her. *01:01:56* And there's some world building and stuff, but really *01:01:59* The front and the back of this game are just loaded with all the story. *01:02:04* In the middle, there's nothing. *01:02:08* There's absolutely nothing. *01:02:09* Yeah. *01:02:10* Except world-building side story stuff. *01:02:11* So they spend like 20 minutes in the *01:02:13* Like at least throughout Kazooie, Grunty is like taunting you throughout the whole game. *01:02:15* Like this, she's like out of sight, out of mind. *01:02:19* There's nothing going on. *01:02:23* You run into uh what's his name? *01:02:25* Clungo a couple times. *01:02:26* It's about it though. *01:02:28* So the the beginning is just packed with twenty minutes of story. *01:02:30* Where, you know, you see Grunty brought back, she has more sisters, and they you know, they're absorbing power to like give Grunty her body back. *01:02:35* And then the end of the game is *01:02:45* There was a quiz and I now you fight Grunty in a tank and you'll win and then the game wraps up and it's just *01:02:48* It's not like this is Why do they introduce her sisters as characters? *01:02:58* This is my biggest question. *01:03:03* They introduce these new characters, they're like, ah, we're Grunty's sisters, we're not the new faces in this game. *01:03:05* And then they get crushed with *01:03:10* two ton weights and just die, I guess. *01:03:12* Like why are they in there? *01:03:15* They never come back. *01:03:19* Yeah. *01:03:20* That's it. *01:03:22* To me, they were this is honestly probably this feels pretty spot on. *01:03:23* They just feel like funny characters that kids would laugh at. *01:03:28* There's a skinny one and a fat one, they're goofy, they trip, and they're clearly not I mean, all three of the witches are not very competent, but like clearly they're not, you know, they're dumber than Grunty, and so it's just that dynamic of three *01:03:31* silly characters. *01:03:45* It stinks because I don't know how you guys feel about it, but I think like story wise *01:03:47* This the game starts off so strong. *01:03:56* I love the setup. *01:04:01* Yes. *01:04:02* Like Grunty is back and she's a straight up zombie and she's like *01:04:02* N sixty four graphics aside, like she is like scary to look at. *01:04:07* She's like, like her eyes falling out. *01:04:11* Yeah, like she's she's scared. *01:04:13* Like, I don't think they *01:04:15* I don't know if they continue it throughout the rest of the game, but her little I don't want to say voice lines, but her voice, like the sounds that play when she talks, in the beginning, they're like *01:04:17* echoing in like a really like ghostly way and they say that she's dead. *01:04:28* And like less than five minutes later she kills Bottles. *01:04:32* Like he's gone. *01:04:36* She blows up Banjo's house and seemingly like wrecks the rest of Spiral Mountain on her way out. *01:04:36* Like *01:04:42* It's all gloomy, it's like sad, like this place that was so happy in the first game is just like trashed and dead, and it's like this really, you know, like kind of like dark setup. *01:04:42* And then *01:04:54* Nothing really happens until the very end. *01:04:57* This is gonna be a very weird comparison *01:05:01* But Banjo Tui's story to me is kinda is a little like Death Stranding *01:05:04* Where a lot happens in the beginning. *01:05:12* Um, there's like very situational moments that happen in the meat of the game, and then the ending happens. *01:05:15* Um I don't know why that's the first thing that comes to my mind. *01:05:22* I'm only just like this is only just clicking with me now. *01:05:25* I kind of that makes perfect sense weirdly similar. *01:05:29* Yeah. *01:05:32* It's I'll you know I'll give Kujima this. *01:05:33* There's still a lot of cutscenes in the middle that are very long. *01:05:37* Um Oh for sure, yeah, there are. *01:05:40* You're not that's actually pretty apt. *01:05:42* I'm *01:05:45* I'm actually upset I didn't think of that because that feels like a thought I would have had at some point. *01:05:45* It's so But it makes sense, right? *01:05:51* It yeah, it starts so flippin' strong. *01:05:54* I think that I think that intro is *01:05:57* one of the most like kind of iconic from that time on the N64. *01:05:59* I love the poker setup and the the lightning, the mood. *01:06:03* It's just so atmospheric. *01:06:07* They really *01:06:09* they really stepped up the like cinematic presentation of their games. *01:06:11* You know, when you look back at what was done before and *01:06:16* I remember as a kid, this is completely wrong, obviously, because I just played the game, but I remember her being *01:06:21* Like taking out more people, like, you know, with her laser thing. *01:06:29* Like I just somehow recall way more engagement from Grunty in the middle of the game. *01:06:33* Like as you progressed further, she was taking out more people. *01:06:38* And like the threat was mounting. *01:06:42* And in reality, she does the 20 minute or so intro of the game. *01:06:45* and nothing. *01:06:52* And then at the end of the game she comes back. *01:06:53* She doesn't even take anyone else out. *01:06:55* Like the threat doesn't mount in any way. *01:06:57* It's all more just, can we save the two of these, you know, can we save bottles and can we save the Jinjo king? *01:06:58* And like that almost saving your sister from being turned into like some spell to make Grunty look young and beautiful. *01:07:06* was more engaging of a plot than saving bottles in the Jinjoking because A, you just met the Jinjo King and bottles is bottles. *01:07:16* I don't know. *01:07:24* Yeah. *01:07:25* As goofy as that is, it's like *01:07:25* She really does go from like, I wanna be pretty to I'm gonna kill people. *01:07:28* Like that's quite a jump. *01:07:33* Yeah. *01:07:35* Also, you guys got the goofy intro because *01:07:35* The way Banjo Tui is is um is designed is that if the game starts to drop frames at all *01:07:42* Um the gameplay will actually slow down to make it so um movement is still s or it still appears smooth *01:07:50* And that applies to cutscenes also. *01:07:58* So when there was any sort of like frame rate dip in the cutscene, the cutscene slowed down *01:08:00* And when uh Grant Kirkhope um was writing music for the g uh for this cutscene, he had to time it with the slowdown of the cutscene. *01:08:06* So your guys' music was out of sync, mine was not *01:08:16* I got the full effect. *01:08:20* You're bullying. *01:08:21* I notice now. *01:08:22* Yeah, like you'll notice it. *01:08:23* Like there'll be like like large like like *01:08:25* brastings that are happening at just like like while they're playing port like poker. *01:08:29* Like it doesn't make any sense. *01:08:34* But if you watch that cutscene on an actual Nintendo 64 *01:08:35* it links up really well. *01:08:40* Like I think the sad like organ music um that plays when when bottles walks out of the house um and and falls over *01:08:41* Starts like like way too early. *01:08:52* But for me, like right as he's walking out, that sad organ starts playing *01:08:57* That's so fascinating. *01:09:01* But for you guys it's way earlier. *01:09:02* It it's it's really weird how they didn't try to like fix that at all. *01:09:04* I mean, yeah. *01:09:08* Uh *01:09:09* The story is just rough in a lot of ways. *01:09:10* I already meant I already mentioned the sisters just being kind of thrown in there for no reason. *01:09:12* I like Klungo's arc kind of throughout the game. *01:09:17* He's about the only character that really gets any sort of *01:09:20* He actually has an arc. *01:09:23* Yeah, he actually has an arc, which is fun. *01:09:24* Grunty, yeah, is seriously just I died. *01:09:28* Now I'm awake and I'm just gonna *01:09:31* nuke people. *01:09:33* Uh other than that, all the other characters that appear are really not that interesting. *01:09:35* Again, the Jinjo King, yeah, you meet him and then he's dead and it's like, okay, well I guess I'm supposed to care *01:09:40* Um, I do like the interactions with the uh Banjo and Kazooie and trying not to tell Bottles' wife and kids that *01:09:47* He's literally dead. *01:09:55* That's kind of fun. *01:09:56* That was really funny. *01:09:57* That's kind of fun early on when that happens. *01:09:58* But yeah, outside of that, this game it it's weird because this game's opening is like *01:10:01* Literally maybe two or three times longer than the first game. *01:10:07* Like it's way there's a lot more going on here at the start, and it is *01:10:10* I know how long the beginning of Kazooie is. *01:10:15* It's like a whopping five minutes. *01:10:17* Yeah, I think this I think the opening to this game is probably close to 15-20 minutes somewhere in there, I gotta say. *01:10:19* So it's funny that they introduce all that up front. *01:10:27* It's like, wow, this is gonna be a way more of a story-heavy game, and then it's just no, not really. *01:10:30* It's just evolved into go get jiggies. *01:10:36* And that's about it. *01:10:39* Which I mean is fine. *01:10:40* I'm fine. *01:10:41* I don't I don't really want a deep narrative in a Banjo-Kazooie game. *01:10:42* I just think it's a very *01:10:45* strange thing that they introduce all this story up front and then literally fifteen hours of gameplay sandwiched in and then you kind of have a sort of *01:10:47* Not great resolution for how it ends. *01:10:57* I I mean I like them kicking around her head at the end. *01:10:59* That's kind of fun and stuff like that, but that's up nuts and bolts. *01:11:01* I think a part of why this story also falls flat is because the final boss is atrocious. *01:11:06* It's lame. *01:11:15* It's so rough. *01:11:17* It *01:11:19* It's just a t tank fight, but with Sometimes you throw some chickens in there. *01:11:21* Grunty hides in a tank, which feels on character for her. *01:11:31* She's a coward, runs away, hides, those types of things. *01:11:35* But the whole fight is the tank. *01:11:39* There's no engagement with her beyond that. *01:11:42* And it's *01:11:45* You've got to shoot her at the right time or blow up the inside of her tank at the right time. *01:11:47* You've got to dodge lasers, so on and so forth. *01:11:51* I just *01:11:54* I don't know how they landed on this. *01:11:56* I'm what do you Logan, what do you think about the final fight? *01:11:58* Uh yeah, it just feels again like they were obsessed with this first-person idea that they implemented in the game. *01:12:02* And they didn't want to go down a similar route of the last game, so they're like, what's something totally different we can do? *01:12:09* Oh hey, we threw in this whole new mechanic set with this shooting. *01:12:16* Let's just do that. *01:12:21* It it just totally feels like that and then they designed a boss fight around it from there. *01:12:23* Yeah, it's not great. *01:12:27* It's not good. *01:12:28* Um I wouldn't say it's like egregiously bad. *01:12:29* But it's pretty dang bad. *01:12:33* Um *01:12:35* I I will say I like it better than some boss fights in the main game just because it provides something of a challenge. *01:12:37* Whether or not that challenge feels artificial or not is kind of up *01:12:44* for debate, but yeah, it almost felt kinda depo uh disappointing when *01:12:50* you get to the end and you're not really fighting her, you're f fighting the the tank. *01:12:58* And then she'll come out of nowhere and ask you a question and I don't want to be quizzed. *01:13:04* I wanna *01:13:10* Have a boss fight. *01:13:11* I'll say this. *01:13:13* I do the mechanic is is annoying, but I do like the idea of it as that feels like a very banjo kazooe. *01:13:14* That feels more banjo kazoo-e. *01:13:21* than the actual quiz that they make you do before you fight the tank. *01:13:23* I I do like her popping up and then answering correctly impacts the speed of her attack or not. *01:13:28* It's very on on brand for sure. *01:13:34* It's on brand as the kids would say. *01:13:36* But the way it's implemented I I f for me as I just kept thinking this is breaking up the flow of this fight. *01:13:38* They should have just *01:13:45* I I I don't know. *01:13:47* I I don't know if they should could have removed it entirely, but the way it's done, I was just getting a little annoyed with it. *01:13:48* Mm-hmm. *01:13:55* Ever so slightly *01:13:56* Yeah, it's not it's not great. *01:13:58* It's not the bee sneeze. *01:14:00* But one thing I do think is the bee sneeze, and I'm interested to hear what you guys think um is Grant Kirkop's music. *01:14:03* Look at all those shelf kisses. *01:14:14* So good. *01:14:16* I I could go on forever about this. *01:14:17* I *01:14:21* Greg Kirkhope is the reason I wanted to write music for video games in the first place. *01:14:26* Um *01:14:32* The first music I ever learned to play on the piano as a child, uh the first song I ever learned to play was um Donkey Kong or DK Isles from uh Donkey Kong 64. *01:14:33* Um and then a lot of the stuff it's so good. *01:14:48* A lot of the stuff from uh from banjo, like I'd be like walking to school like whistling it to myself or humming it to myself. *01:14:51* It it's so *01:14:59* easily get stuck in your head and I love the um I think it's called MIDI channel fading where you can move to um *01:15:00* a different section of that world and it'll be playing the same song but a completely different version of it. *01:15:10* Um it can even change tempos or whatever um instruments and it it just makes *01:15:16* He does such a good job of making the world draw you in that much more because now you have like these really great melodies to associate like each area with. *01:15:21* Um like *01:15:31* Uh a good example would probably be uh Glitter Gulch Mine, where even in some of those back um *01:15:34* Like areas you'll you'll hear like this very high pitched uh string section that puts me on edge because they're dark caves, you don't really know what's gonna be in there the first time you're playing it. *01:15:43* And *01:15:55* I think he definitely kinda felt that and just wanted to scare people a little bit. *01:15:56* And it works. *01:16:00* It works so well. *01:16:01* Um some of the other things were like the um *01:16:03* similar songs being played in minor keys. *01:16:06* Um I mean that's something he does in a lot of uh a lot of those games. *01:16:10* Like, you know, DK Isle is playing in a minor key when you go to um *01:16:16* the big mechanical island or um it's spiral mountain the first level of the game is the spiral mountain theme from the first game uh played in a minor key *01:16:21* It's awesome. *01:16:31* It's so good. *01:16:32* Um I could I could probably go on about it for way too long. *01:16:34* But it's just so good. *01:16:39* You can correct me if I'm wrong. *01:16:41* I'm not musically educated in any real capacity, but uh one of the things that I wrote down was it was more subtle. *01:16:43* And I think that might be the minor key thing you're talking about. *01:16:48* It's *01:16:51* It's a way more subdued and I think a good way. *01:16:52* I think the most obvious place of that is the very when you boot the game up. *01:16:56* When you turn it on and it goes it does the you know, the tilt down or pan down, I guess. *01:17:00* Over Grunty's layer and it's just the you know, the little theme at the beginning instead of the whole b *01:17:07* It's banjo tuning his banjo as if like you know you haven't been playing banjo for a long time his his instruments are out of tune, he's gotta he's gotta get them ready to go after two years *01:17:17* It's I love that. *01:17:30* It's so cool. *01:17:31* Yeah, I think I really it blends in and they feel really good with the world. *01:17:32* I I *01:17:37* the other notes I wrote down, horns, there's a lot of horns, and that I like the hail fire mm peak um music a lot. *01:17:38* I think the Oh yeah the French horns are great. *01:17:45* Yeah, I like that *01:17:48* on the fire side and on the the frozen side, going back and forth between those and hearing the music. *01:17:49* I just I think the way that the music is woven in, while not as probably iconic or like you can pick it out *01:17:54* like in um in Banjo Kazooie, I think that the music is tied more into the world itself. *01:18:03* Logan, what did you think of the music? *01:18:12* Uh not as many memorable tracks compared to Kazooie, in my opinion. *01:18:16* But again, I mean everything Brian said about *01:18:23* what Kirk Hope is actually doing with the soundtrack itself is as impressive as always with him. *01:18:26* Uh so yeah the game has great music, it's just not as iconic, but that's *01:18:33* hard to outdo Kazooie. *01:18:40* Cause I think that game has one of the more memorable soundtracks ever. *01:18:43* So yeah. *01:18:47* Yeah, I I could see that. *01:18:48* I I I also have a bias again that nostalgia coming through and I just definitely prefer this more. *01:18:50* I think it's uh it's more my speed, but it's also what I grew up with, so *01:18:56* I think though that the music is a good actually a really good jumping off point based off the way you were d describing it, Brian. *01:19:02* to like get to the ranking of the worlds part of what we've been doing this season. *01:19:11* And there are quite a few worlds. *01:19:17* I mean all in all there's two, four, six, eight. *01:19:19* Ten, eleven, I mean Spiral Mountain is barely in the game, and Isle Hags is really the long hallway that connects all of these worlds together. *01:19:22* Cauldron keep is really not a level in any reality. *01:19:30* That's what I was gonna say. *01:19:34* I wasn't sure what you were gonna count as an actual world, so I have seven listed. *01:19:35* I basically the the ones that you go through from May *01:19:39* Yeah, Mayhem Temple to Cloud Cuckoo Land. *01:19:43* But the other part we kind of didn't really touch on was that this game actually has bosses besides Grunty. *01:19:46* So maybe we can just mention those as we go through these worlds. *01:19:52* But *01:19:56* I think to start out, Logan typically, because he's guided these discussions previously, because he kind of came up with this idea. *01:19:56* But he's always started with the negative. *01:20:05* He's always like, this is the bottom of the list. *01:20:07* Here's your rusty bucket bay, your terrarium of terror. *01:20:09* We're starting at the top. *01:20:13* Ugh. *01:20:14* I I was gonna say let me give you the bottom four right now. *01:20:15* No. *01:20:19* No. *01:20:19* No, let me give you the bottom. *01:20:20* I don't know. *01:20:22* No *01:20:24* Positivity. *01:20:25* We're starting with the best level in the game, and I will accept nothing. *01:20:26* Besides Witchy World. *01:20:33* It's Witchy World or Mayahim Temple. *01:20:34* Witchy World is the best level in this game. *01:20:37* Interesting. *01:20:39* Witchy World, yeah, I'm fine with putting that at number one. *01:20:40* Personally. *01:20:44* That's my number one also. *01:20:44* Yes. *01:20:46* I'm so glad you guys put that. *01:20:46* Witchy World is so memorable. *01:20:48* It's just got this really fun *01:20:53* m vibe to it. *01:20:57* All these different carnival sections, horror, UFOs, food stands, Western. *01:20:59* It's just. *01:21:05* It's so memorable. *01:21:06* I love Witchy World. *01:21:07* I get excited playing it *01:21:08* Well there's something about it and just that like every single thing about it works in just like interesting to again *01:21:11* It just works. *01:21:22* Um everything about it is it works so perfectly. *01:21:24* Like you can just looking at the world, just existing in it. *01:21:28* is fun. *01:21:32* It's a carnival. *01:21:33* It's meant to be fun. *01:21:34* Like there's super bright colors. *01:21:36* The theming of each area is so cool. *01:21:37* Um I I just love that idea for a um *01:21:40* uh for il for like a a 3D platformer world and the fact that it's also to me the one world in the game with the fewest amount of like *01:21:44* Like speed bumps and roadblocks. *01:21:55* It's it's a lot is it's a dense level. *01:21:57* Everything is close. *01:22:00* And everything's accessible. *01:22:03* I th I I think that's I *01:22:04* I could be getting this wrong, but I think most 2G's in that world you can get on the first time around. *01:22:07* Maybe there's one. *01:22:15* Maybe there's even two, but it I I feel like I was able to get just about everything. *01:22:15* thing I can think of you have to do that in Glitter Gold to bring the UFO there. *01:22:21* But I felt like I was really playing the game there. *01:22:26* Like 'cause like nothing was really stuck in the world. *01:22:29* Yeah, it's after w it's after Witchie World that I think the game gets really into the bad habits of *01:22:30* the backtracking. *01:22:37* I think the first three I think the first three worlds are like that, honestly. *01:22:38* Which is why I also said I thought Maya Mayahem Temple would also be near the top of my list because *01:22:41* I know that's again just the first level of the game, but I do like that that one is pretty self-contained as well. *01:22:47* I mean there are a couple of things you have to do to backtrack to get back there. *01:22:54* Um *01:22:57* And get a couple of the jiggies but yeah it most of those first couple worlds I don't have a problem with because of their *01:22:58* light on the backtracking. *01:23:06* So those are the ones I'm fond of. *01:23:08* And of the early ones, yeah, I think Witchy World is the most unique of the bunch for sure. *01:23:10* So I think this is interesting because I feel like based on what we've just said, number two onward might be different for *01:23:16* all of us. *01:23:23* I think yes. *01:23:24* I agree. *01:23:25* I I agree with you, Brian. *01:23:25* I do want to say really quick, Witchy World, the boss, Mr. *01:23:27* Patch, also my favorite Banjo Kazooie boss. *01:23:30* I know the flying and like shooting stuff is like annoying mechanically. *01:23:33* I just love his personality and design. *01:23:37* Same. *01:23:40* Mr. *01:23:40* Patch. *01:23:41* Top *01:23:41* here when he showed up in nuts and bolts slogan i got excited number two *01:23:42* And then we can go to Logan's Bad Town. *01:23:50* But number two, I think we're gonna differ like Brian said, so I'm curious what you both have. *01:23:52* I don't uh I yeah, I I think my hymn temple maybe. *01:24:00* I that's probably what I would put number two. *01:24:05* That's a mm *01:24:07* Negative Ghost Rider. *01:24:09* Brian, what's your number two? *01:24:11* None of the others. *01:24:12* Anything below Witchy World is automatically worse. *01:24:13* This is gonna sound so stupid because the reason that I like this world *01:24:17* is one of the reasons that I one of the things that annoys me so much about the game as a whole. *01:24:23* And it's Terry Dactuland. *01:24:31* That's my second. *01:24:33* Mm, we're close. *01:24:34* We're very close. *01:24:35* I just I don't know. *01:24:37* I I feel like it's the one world that takes the whole *01:24:39* big world idea and kind of does it I don't want to say the best because that and that assumes that it's doing it well, which it really It can be the best of the worst though. *01:24:47* Yes, that's a good way to put it. *01:25:01* Um I love the transformation of that world. *01:25:03* Yes. *01:25:06* I love that it's kind of like *01:25:06* two-tiered. *01:25:08* Um the design like the visual design of that world is so cool to me. *01:25:10* I love that giant mountain. *01:25:14* I love the clouds swirling above it. *01:25:16* Um I love the side caves. *01:25:19* Um *01:25:21* I love inside the mountain. *01:25:22* That's just such a cool little cozy little room. *01:25:24* I like the minigame in that um in that world where you're kind of shooting at all the *01:25:27* ulcers that as weird as that is to even say. *01:25:33* Um I just think it's cool. *01:25:36* It it's just a fun little place to run around in and it's one of those worlds to me that *01:25:38* I think is so cool to just exist in. *01:25:43* I I think I like that world's personality. *01:25:46* I I say that a lot, that I I think certain games and certain areas of games are fun to just exist in because *01:25:50* When you're a kid, even now, like obviously it's a video game, but like they're doing everything they can to convince you that this is a real place. *01:25:57* Um *01:26:07* And in a weird sort of sense, it kind of is. *01:26:08* I I I I feel like that one is just the fun to *01:26:12* the most fun to mess around in and to just be in. *01:26:17* I don't know. *01:26:20* It's kind of a weird way to explain that. *01:26:21* Where kid can be a kid. *01:26:23* Teradacland would be my third. *01:26:24* My second is Hailfire Peaks *01:26:27* Um and that is because Logan will will get this. *01:26:30* Hellfire Peaks is my click clockwood *01:26:33* And that is pure nostalgia field. *01:26:38* I love the dual boss battle. *01:26:40* I think uh the fire and ice duality of it is *01:26:43* Great. *01:26:47* I like as an adult now I like that they bring kickball back. *01:26:48* I think that's so cool. *01:26:52* You've like thaw uh explorer man. *01:26:53* I just think the stuff going on there is an explorer man from a past rare game *01:26:56* Should say picked up on that at this time as an adult. *01:27:01* But I think what's going on there is very interesting and dynamic and I have fun with it. *01:27:04* And it also isn't reusing the same asset four times. *01:27:08* It's just *01:27:12* two different mountains but next to each other. *01:27:14* And that's what I like about uh Hailfire Peak. *01:27:17* I like the I like the idea behind Hailfire um with the divided *01:27:20* Nature of the level. *01:27:25* My problem with it is it gets confusing with where everything is at in that game. *01:27:26* I struggle to remember where certain points of interest are at because I think it's too *01:27:30* Everything just looks too similar in a lot of ways. *01:27:36* I think the uh fireside in particular is kind of cumbersome, especially to get around. *01:27:39* The fireside really doesn't have anything interesting beyond the Colosseum. *01:27:46* Yeah. *01:27:49* And like the water pool. *01:27:50* Yeah. *01:27:52* And then the ice side is really it's got a little bit more going on over there. *01:27:52* But then I Ice side's busy. *01:27:57* There's the cave, there's Bogley's house. *01:27:59* The train station. *01:28:01* There's more over there. *01:28:03* There's certain areas in that side of the level that I could tell you I remember are there, but I would not be able to tell you how to get to it. *01:28:04* That is a very difficult to navigate well. *01:28:11* Yeah. *01:28:13* Is that there's way too many different ins and outs of this level. *01:28:17* Like the things connect in really bizarre w ways *01:28:21* Um that are almost hard to understand. *01:28:25* Like there's a tunnel on the ice side that connects to the fireside, but then if you walk down that path on the tunnel on the fireside of where you just came out of *01:28:28* You can then enter the train station area where you will find the camel up there and you could jump on his back, but you need the train to be there so you could it's just like *01:28:38* I I don't know. *01:28:47* Again, the the backtracking stuff I think it's way worse in a lot of these later levels. *01:28:48* So like while I like the ideas and things like that, um and this goes for pterodactyland too. *01:28:52* This is my main problem with those two levels. *01:28:57* Um *01:29:00* Yeah. *01:29:01* So I don't I don't know what to put. *01:29:02* Brian and I are close enough. *01:29:04* This is why I said pterodactyland is number two. *01:29:05* Well this is why I said let me throw let me throw some quick ones out at the bottom because Spiral Mountain's gotta go near the bottom because there's just nothing to do there. *01:29:08* Cauldron keep sam same, I would say. *01:29:15* There's just I wasn't even ranking those, but sure. *01:29:17* Oh, okay. *01:29:20* Well, we don't have to rank them then. *01:29:21* Uh throw those out. *01:29:23* Toss them. *01:29:25* Uh Jolly Rogers Lagoon's terrible. *01:29:26* It's a water level. *01:29:28* Horrible. *01:29:29* It it's a d that is the worst level in the game. *01:29:30* That is a visual statement. *01:29:33* So what are we saying? *01:29:35* Is that eighth then? *01:29:36* Because we're not ranking Isle of Hags either. *01:29:38* If there's eleven levels, then that's eight. *01:29:40* Yeah. *01:29:44* Or nights. *01:29:44* Oh Jolly Rogers Lagoon, I think is I mean, do you disagree, Brian? *01:29:45* It's *01:29:50* Oh no, I just put it at three. *01:29:52* You put it at three, really? *01:29:53* Charlie Rogers is your third? *01:29:55* Yeah, I put it at three. *01:29:57* I Oh, you're a madman. *01:29:59* I am one of those rare people that is not bothered by water levels in video games. *01:30:00* In fact, I actually enjoy a lot of them. *01:30:04* Um This guy. *01:30:07* I think *01:30:09* The the thing about that world that is interesting to me is that *01:30:12* When I played it for the first time and I was a stupid kid, and I'm still stupid, um I did not know that that Atlantis section was there. *01:30:19* Um *01:30:30* So when I figured that out and I got down there for the first time, my mind was like completely blown. *01:30:32* I thought it was so cool. *01:30:38* I don't find the swimming mechanics in this game to be that *01:30:39* Awful to control. *01:30:45* If you're the submarine, they're not terrible. *01:30:47* Why do they invert when you launch the Kazooie torpedo? *01:30:49* I haven't mentioned this. *01:30:53* Why does it invert the swimming controls? *01:30:55* Yeah, that is weird. *01:30:57* I don't know if anybody else had this problem the whole game. *01:30:58* But the swimming controls. *01:31:01* So if you if you if it yeah, it totally inverts itself. *01:31:09* It's also weird how they inverted the swimming controls from Kazooie to Tui. *01:31:14* Yeah. *01:31:18* I don't know if you noticed that, but they're they're different. *01:31:18* But they don't they didn't bother me that much. *01:31:22* I I thought the the boss um in that world was pretty interesting. *01:31:24* It's terrifying. *01:31:30* Um I don't know. *01:31:32* I I really like *01:31:34* How that world's like layout is not all that confusing. *01:31:36* It's to me it's just *01:31:42* If you hate the swimming controls or if you don't like water levels, you probably won't like that level. *01:31:45* Um, I also think it's just to for my tastes. *01:31:52* just relatively inoffensive. *01:31:56* Um i it it just was the one of the worlds that didn't really bother me that much. *01:31:59* What one did bother you that much then? *01:32:05* I'm curious what's near the bottom of your list then. *01:32:07* Oh there are some ones that bothered me alright that really bothered me. *01:32:10* But I'm sure we'll get there. *01:32:15* So did we get to your No you can just tell just tell us what we yeah what is it? *01:32:17* Just what's the bottom of your list? *01:32:22* What's at the bottom? *01:32:24* Um We're all over. *01:32:25* So what's at the bottom is clo is Cloud Cuckoo Land. *01:32:26* Oh yeah, that one's big that one's terrible. *01:32:32* Oh. *01:32:34* I would say it makes me want to not play. *01:32:35* I would say I I'm sorry. *01:32:37* I would not put Jolly Rogers at the at the bottom. *01:32:39* I would put Grunty Industries at the bottom. *01:32:42* I hate that one. *01:32:44* I was surprised that wasn't. *01:32:45* Yeah, I don't know how I completely overlooked that one. *01:32:46* That's my least favorite. *01:32:48* I'm fine with that. *01:32:51* That level, like that is exactly what I was saying about things being too interconnected and it like hard having a hard time of knowing where the heck you're going. *01:32:53* That one is very *01:33:01* Confusing me. *01:33:04* It's probably the worst offender. *01:33:05* Yeah. *01:33:06* It's i it's in the middle for me. *01:33:08* It's at number four. *01:33:11* Because in a weird way. *01:33:14* I can't defend that world at all. *01:33:18* But in a weird way playing it this time around. *01:33:20* Every other time I've played it, I've hated it *01:33:23* But I was dreading it the entire game coming up. *01:33:25* When I got to that point, I had this attitude of like this world sucks. *01:33:28* It's stupid. *01:33:34* It should not be designed the way that it is. *01:33:35* Um but I'm gonna like get through it this time and it's I'm gonna like stomp this level. *01:33:38* So I think it it it was a mix of me having a better attitude going into it and also *01:33:44* just kind of remembering things from last time that made it less annoying to try to figure things out because it wasn't my first time that I was able to focus more on like *01:33:49* you know, the stupid things like or not the stupid things, like the um the the lesser notice things. *01:34:03* Like the dude in the bathroom having a horrible time. *01:34:10* Um he didn't show up, but I remembered that he was there and that made me laugh. *01:34:13* Um, the toilet coming back. *01:34:17* I thought that was funny. *01:34:19* I also just have like a soft spot for like that kind of like aesthetic. *01:34:20* The like *01:34:26* Overly industrial. *01:34:28* What's your favorite level in Don 164? *01:34:30* The uh the factory? *01:34:32* Yeah. *01:34:34* Yeah, it is. *01:34:35* It's just uh it's just a cool aesthetic. *01:34:38* It's part of the reason why I love um uh mirror's edge so much. *01:34:40* Oh yeah. *01:34:44* I just think that's a really cool *01:34:45* aesthetic. *01:34:48* So I think this time I was able to ignore that world's flaws for better or worse. *01:34:49* Um in favor of just *01:34:56* trying to focus on what was not so bad about it. *01:35:00* So that made me hate it less. *01:35:03* If I if I were to look at it through the lens of like how is this actually designed? *01:35:05* It wouldn't even be last. *01:35:10* I'd probably try to find a way to put it below that. *01:35:12* There is a weird what what's so annoying to me about a lot of this *01:35:16* Game and that world is the worst offender. *01:35:22* Is I'm gonna go there right now. *01:35:24* If you go to um a website, it is called noclip. *01:35:25* website. *01:35:31* I don't know if you've ever heard of it. *01:35:31* Mm-hmm. *01:35:33* For people listening who have not been there, it's basically a website where it has a list of games from different systems that *01:35:34* Um you can take a camera and fly through levels of a huge list of games. *01:35:43* um in your browser. *01:35:52* And I think that's such a cool thing because it kind of like gives you some sort of insight into how a world was made, what's going on behind the scenes. *01:35:53* When you go when you go to Grunty Industries on NoClip. *01:36:02* website, you can see just how simple the layout of this world is. *01:36:07* How few rooms there are per floor. *01:36:12* How um certain areas will are supposed to connect to each other. *01:36:16* And when you look and see how simple they are from a bird's eye view, it's *01:36:23* infuriating that it ends up in the actual game being as obtuse as it is. *01:36:28* It's almost insulting. *01:36:35* I almost don't want to look at it because that sounds Yeah *01:36:37* Cause you can look at like even the second floor there's only like three or four rooms. *01:36:40* But to get between those three or four rooms *01:36:45* Is such a slug. *01:36:48* It it it's so it's awful. *01:36:50* They t so it's like you can almost see how they were padding it out to be the *01:36:53* Just about the worst level um in any banjo game. *01:37:01* Yeah. *01:37:07* Or close to it *01:37:07* Yet despite all that, for some reason, this time I didn't like it as much. *01:37:09* I was an insane person this time. *01:37:15* Well *01:37:17* Grunty's at the bottom, and I'm sorry, but Jolly Rogers at the bottom. *01:37:18* It should be at the two to one. *01:37:22* I'm sorry. *01:37:25* Very, very sorry. *01:37:26* It's fair, it's fair *01:37:27* I think Cuckoo Land is bad. *01:37:28* If Brian thinks it's bad, I it is. *01:37:31* Yes. *01:37:33* It's pretty bad. *01:37:33* I'm fine with that being seven. *01:37:34* It's so that's just a hodgepodge level. *01:37:36* It just Yeah, that's just so dis disjointed and just all over the place *01:37:38* The best the one thing I'll say about it, the best part of it is the boss fight with the robot mumbo. *01:37:43* I always liked that as a kid. *01:37:49* That thing was dope. *01:37:50* Um how do you uh is there like a way to beat the flying person in this level easily? *01:37:51* The flying person? *01:37:59* Oh, you have to fix there's I don't know. *01:38:03* I didn't find a way. *01:38:06* There's like a is there like a way to fix the rat mouse thing that you're flying on? *01:38:07* Yeah *01:38:11* I didn't even do it. *01:38:12* I tried a couple times and went, nah, never mind. *01:38:14* Yeah, I tried a couple times and I was like, okay, something's clearly wrong. *01:38:17* One of the jam jar signs says like *01:38:21* Though the lady will fix the rat or something. *01:38:24* I don't know. *01:38:27* I saw that one too. *01:38:28* Are we counting Isle of Hags here? *01:38:30* Is that a level that we're counting? *01:38:32* It's just a *01:38:33* Hallway that connects things, I wasn't really planning on it. *01:38:35* Um I think a more interesting lens to look at that through is comparing it to Grunty's lair from the first game. *01:38:38* I do think that *01:38:44* I think it's better than that. *01:38:45* I think there's more going on and it's interesting and it makes the world feel truly connected instead of like a a tower with separate portals. *01:38:47* This feels like, oh, we're in a space. *01:38:56* Then we're gonna do this. *01:38:59* Okay, so then what's the middle? *01:39:00* So if we've got You guys are gonna hate my five and six. *01:39:02* You're you're not gonna be proud of me for putting these where I put 'em. *01:39:06* Go for it then. *01:39:09* Five was Glitter Gulch Mine. *01:39:11* And then six is Maya Ham. *01:39:14* Yeah, my second worst was Maya Ham. *01:39:16* I mean Because *01:39:19* My problem with it is, is that a lot of it is either um a really *01:39:21* A really like uninteresting or simple solution to a problem or getting a jiggy is just so simple that it's insulting to me *01:39:32* But that's what I liked about Kazooie. *01:39:45* I guess that's why I like it. *01:39:47* Sh sometimes, yeah. *01:39:51* Sometimes. *01:39:53* Like even that first one, that first level, like Mumbo's Mountain, there are Jiggies that you just walk right up to him and you get them. *01:39:54* Um *01:40:00* Which is fine, um, but you still do have like the oranges landing on the tiles, um, climbing to the top of the mountain, or to the termite hill, which doesn't really feel like much, but *01:40:02* It's it's kind of like an achievement for like your first thing. *01:40:15* It's like wow I got to the top of this thing and I figured out that I needed to turn into the termite. *01:40:18* Whereas my hand temple, it's just like well you have to have this *01:40:22* Yeah, it's like you gotta go to the top of this thing and get it here and you just walk up there or you have to cross this um pond of mud. *01:40:27* by just having the right move to climb along this ledge and hold left until you get there. *01:40:37* Or it's you know a sneaking with the snake i i I guess is kinda cool. *01:40:42* Not on Xbox it's not. *01:40:48* That's the worst jiggy in the whole game to get. *01:40:51* Yeah, because the just the way the thumbsticks work compared to the N64 one. *01:40:54* Oh no. *01:40:59* The gap between like think of the range of motion than an N64 *01:41:00* stick has and then compare it to uh the range of motion of an Xbox controller and the gap between tiptoeing and just actually walking *01:41:05* is so small. *01:41:15* Oh god. *01:41:17* Yeah, it was a bad controller. *01:41:18* I actually used my elite controller, made a profile, modified the stick to have the lowest response time and got the tallest stick so that *01:41:20* No matter basically if I threw the stick full tilt, Banjo was tiptoeing. *01:41:29* I just That's amazing. *01:41:34* I just sucked it up and did it. *01:41:37* No, I was just saying I cried a couple times and went, nope, I'm we're we're getting around this one. *01:41:39* It was very bad. *01:41:45* Yeah. *01:41:47* I didn't like it for a different reason and just that I didn't think it was like *01:41:48* There there's a there's like a there's a gulf in the middle of too easy and too hard that I didn't think that that first level was really *01:41:52* Quite scratching the itch in the way that like first levels of other 3D platformers did. *01:42:02* So okay *01:42:08* So it sounds like I I would say is anybody really hot on glitter gold because it sounds like we're all kind of like mid-tier on it, which means we could probably put that at like four *01:42:10* Glitter Gulch is my three. *01:42:19* I just love the look of it. *01:42:20* I love the purple. *01:42:21* I love the layout of like Wamba in the middle and *01:42:23* Um the different mindset. *01:42:28* It's also the only world where when you warp to her thing, you go inside. *01:42:30* Mm-hmm. *01:42:34* When you warp around, it's the only world in the game where you warp straight to like just being inside of her tent. *01:42:35* Oh yeah. *01:42:42* And I like King Cole being the boss and that tying directly into the train going between the worlds. *01:42:45* I just think that's a *01:42:51* Well I do like that. *01:42:54* I d I I don't dislike that level at all. *01:42:54* No, I like it. *01:42:57* It's my it's my three if I had uh I would be fine putting that one higher than personally *01:42:58* Like we're ranking these and I I don't really have any strong feelings towards any of them on the list. *01:43:03* I can tell you which ones this is why I wanted to start with the worst ones personally, because I can tell you which ones out of the bunch I think I dislike the most, but I can't tell you which ones I really love the most *01:43:07* Witchy World I would say is number one because I feel like it's the most unique. *01:43:16* And then all the other ones that we talked about that for the reasons I think they're bad. *01:43:20* But now it's just like a hodgepodge of yeah *01:43:25* levels I have pretty huge problems with and so I don't know how to kind of separate personally. *01:43:29* I mean for me it's Witchy World, Hailfire, and Glitter Gulch are like that structure. *01:43:37* And then I throw Maya M in the middle. *01:43:42* Um *01:43:44* And pterodactyl land in the middle and then the back half we've already established is kind of like the flow, I think, there. *01:43:45* Where'd you say Hailfire was at for you, Brian? *01:43:51* I I I put it oh I didn't even mention it's um it's number four. *01:43:54* It's it's right between Jolly Rogers Lagoon and Grunty Industries. *01:43:59* This crazy kid replacing. *01:44:03* I think if you look at our lists *01:44:05* Like you guys kinda have a little more similar list than I do. *01:44:08* But I think it's different because like Max you said you'd never really fully played through the game. *01:44:12* Well at least not in a long time, right? *01:44:19* Yeah. *01:44:21* And then this was Logan's first time. *01:44:22* This is probably like my thirteenth or fourteenth playthrough of this game. *01:44:25* So fast. *01:44:30* So a lot of my picks were just based on like *01:44:31* How much did I enjoy like being in the world and just the vibe of the world as compared to like your guys' like how did how much did playing the game annoy me *01:44:38* here like what worlds were the most like most of just a pain to navigate which is like an *01:44:50* a more than fair way to rank the world your first time or second or third time around. *01:44:59* But me knowing this game as well as I do and having more of a nostalgic attachment to it *01:45:05* I was just like, well, which ones make me feel good just by looking at it? *01:45:11* Yeah, how's that? *01:45:15* Which is a weird way to look at a game at all. *01:45:16* I think I think Glitter Gold should be in top three based on what we've all said personal *01:45:20* I don't know where I've got that. *01:45:25* But I I I'm willing to concede it down to uh or up to second if you both feel so strongly that something else doesn't surpass that. *01:45:28* But I've said my piece. *01:45:36* I think that's fair. *01:45:38* Second for Glitter Gulch then? *01:45:40* I'll concede. *01:45:42* Okay. *01:45:44* Maya him I feel like is like fifth. *01:45:45* Then I'm not gonna die on that hill for a personal. *01:45:49* I think yeah, I think it's it's there. *01:45:53* I think the other ones are better. *01:45:55* What's left in the list. *01:45:56* Fourth and third then would go to pterodactyl and hailfire. *01:45:58* Definitely. *01:46:02* Yeah, that's fine. *01:46:03* So which one do we but which one is third and which one's fourth, I guess? *01:46:05* Third is hailfire. *01:46:08* I'll fight for those dragons. *01:46:10* I'll fight for Chicago. *01:46:12* I would say I like Hailfire more than Terry Dactyl personally. *01:46:13* Yeah, I think the concept's a little more interesting too. *01:46:17* So that kind of gives us our list with uh *01:46:21* Scratching out Spiral Mountain Isle Hags and Cauldron Keep just because they're they're just connecting points. *01:46:24* Um in eighth is Granty Industries *01:46:30* Sorry Brian, that's where that one belongs. *01:46:34* No, that's a fair that's a fair judgment for sure. *01:46:36* Jolly Rogers Lagoon in seventh *01:46:39* Cloud, Cuckoo Land in sixth, uh Mayahem Temple in fifth, Pterodactyland in fourth, Hailfire Peaks in third, glittery ultra mine in second, and Witchy World and first where it belongs. *01:46:41* And I think to kind of wrap this episode out, I wanna go just briefly talk about what the legacy of this game is, because *01:46:56* For me, I think to start it off is the one thing I wrote is kind of the thing I've been saying this whole episode is that *01:47:09* This is this is truly the best game to play as a six-year-old at your friend's house in short spurts. *01:47:17* Because I never got to experience the like grind of confusion. *01:47:26* I was always playing at least with one other person, you know, the person who lived in the house. *01:47:32* And you could figure things out together or a team or maybe, you know, that kid had already known what to do and could guide me towards it. *01:47:37* I never had to wander around or pull out the player's guide or search on the internet like how to beat this. *01:47:45* It was just an exploratory thing in short spurts. *01:47:51* And so *01:47:55* That gave me a really warm feeling about the game looking back on it over the years and playing it today. *01:47:57* Just the padding. *01:48:07* It's just I think the moves you do are interesting, but I just think the stretching of it so thin really *01:48:09* Brings the experience down over time, where to to the point where you just don't want to do certain things because you know it's going to take you longer. *01:48:18* And I think that's the kind of the shame of it. *01:48:28* Um, which really makes nuts and bolts feel more like an honest banjo sequel, really. *01:48:30* Um which is interesting, just kind of this strange hindsight of like how *01:48:38* Nuts and Bolts actually is more of a banjo game than I would have than I previously would have said, and it's because of a warped perception. *01:48:44* I definitely think I I don't even know if I'd call Nuts and Bolts a like a better sequel, but what I would call it is like a really nice like celebration of banjo. *01:48:52* Like looking like banjo but from a different sequel in the sense of like it actually is a sequel more than being separated like I would have previously thought. *01:49:05* Yeah, it makes it like playing Banjo Tui now makes it feel closer to banjo than it originally did. *01:49:17* Because it's easy to just be like, yeah, car is bad. *01:49:24* But that's what I would say. *01:49:27* No, like it's kind of it's it's more in the same vein of the games than people are the willing to admit. *01:49:28* Tui just makes that a lot more apparent when now like *01:49:36* I I I can still say that I love the game, but oh boy, has it not aged well. *01:49:41* Like, not at all and and it's not even just like the graphics haven't aged that well because they have. *01:49:50* And it's not that like, you know, it it performs bad because even on a Nintendo 64 it's not unplayable. *01:49:56* it really just is the design of the game overall that hasn't aged well, which is which is weird because you look at like ukulele, which is largely made by the same people, and they have like *01:50:04* You know, uh like a whole feature of the game which is expanding the world to make them bigger and make them longer. *01:50:19* They did it again. *01:50:26* That's all. *01:50:27* So it's like, is this is this really like *01:50:27* Is this really just a a pitfall that only existed in, you know, 1999 or 2000? *01:50:31* Or is this something that people still think now? *01:50:39* Like *01:50:42* A bigger game is a better game or a longer game is a better game. *01:50:43* Like you said before, like, yeah, I'm spending 60 bucks on this game. *01:50:46* If I don't get at least like 20 or 30 hours out of it, I wasted my time. *01:50:49* More importantly, wasting money. *01:50:54* Yeah, how long has this been a how how long has this been a thing? *01:50:56* Because I don't think that. *01:51:01* I know you don't think that. *01:51:02* Right. *01:51:03* Celeste is one of the shortest games I've played and it's one of my favorites. *01:51:04* Inside, I can beat that game in like three hours and it's incredible. *01:51:07* I I I'd spend sixty bucks on that. *01:51:11* Like I don't think it's the time or how big a game is. *01:51:14* I think it's just *01:51:16* how good of an experience it is. *01:51:18* But man, do they like you can make a game bigger. *01:51:21* You can make it, you know, long, but *01:51:25* They just didn't go about it in the right way. *01:51:29* I can like happily say that, man, I put 65 hours into Elden Ring and I loved every moment of it, but *01:51:32* I put sixteen or seventeen into this game and I liked probably like seven hours of it. *01:51:39* Whereas a six-year-old I wouldn't tell you that. *01:51:47* I would I would have told you the opposite. *01:51:50* I think the most interesting note I wrote down while I was playing this game is I just wrote three words and those three words were ukulele better. *01:51:52* Um *01:52:00* I I think I I like I was not I I didn't think ukulele was super bad when I first played it *01:52:02* But I didn't realize how much better that game was by comparison to some of these old games until I fully played through Tui, and I'm not trying to get into a weird *01:52:09* legacy conversation involving ukulele and stuff like that. *01:52:17* Ukulele's not bad. *01:52:21* It's not bad. *01:52:22* I I think it's better. *01:52:23* I I just think this game *01:52:25* This game's legacy is that it's the last real banjo game, and that's been true for 22 years now, so that's kind of a weird thing. *01:52:27* You just wait until we play Grunty's Revenge. *01:52:35* Yeah, maybe. *01:52:38* Um then again, that's still not a true ban uh when people think of banjo games they think of this and they think of Kazooie. *01:52:40* Real banjo fans think of Grunty's Revenge. *01:52:47* Maybe. *01:52:49* Real banjo fans think of Banjo Pilot. *01:52:50* Thank you, Brian. *01:52:53* Thank you. *01:52:54* So I don't know what you guys are talking about. *01:52:55* I mean, yeah, this game's legacy I guess is just that, that this is the last real banjo game. *01:52:57* Because no one's really counting nuts and bolts or Grunty's Revenge for cer for obvious reasons. *01:53:02* Um for me, I guess this game's legacy is just *01:53:08* Yeah, like all those years of me not playing it, even though I was like, I should play that game. *01:53:13* Like, I totally didn't need to play this game because I think in su it hasn't like *01:53:19* I'm not one of those people that's like, this game's ruined my childhood now or s like me now having fully played this game has not in any way ruined *01:53:24* how much I like Banjo Kazooie or this this series. *01:53:32* But it's definitely a rough game. *01:53:35* The game I would tell people to rush out and play. *01:53:37* In 2022, like we have here. *01:53:40* Yeah, it's just got it's just a product of its time. *01:53:43* I I I think that's probably the best way to describe it, is because a lot of the things they're doing here I can totally understand. *01:53:46* why they happened in such a way, but I can't uh abide by them twenty years later. *01:53:52* So yeah *01:53:59* I get it. *01:54:00* And I think on that note, we'll wrap this episode of Chapter Select up. *01:54:02* Thank you all for listening. *01:54:06* You can uh follow the show on Twitter at Chapter Select. *01:54:09* You could follow myself on Twitter at Max Roberts143 and my writing over at maxfrequency. *01:54:12* net. *01:54:19* Logan, you can follow on Twitter at Moreman12 and his writing over at comicbook. *01:54:20* com *01:54:25* And then Brian, you can follow on Twitter at Brian Hinkin, who's co-founder of Sun House Games. *01:54:26* Anything in particular you'd like to share with the audience, Brian? *01:54:32* Yeah, if you if you f if you follow at SonghouseGames on Twitter, um pretty soon we're gonna have a a big a big announcement for our next game. *01:54:36* It's it's a little stressful 'cause I'm really not all too sure. *01:54:46* Um what people are gonna think of it. *01:54:51* It's very different from the last game we've made. *01:54:52* Um, but I it's it's something that I really believe in. *01:54:55* It's something that I'm super passionate about and excited to show off *01:54:57* Um so you can check us out there. *01:55:01* Um I am also, I don't even know if you guys really know much about this, but I'm also part of a little uh *01:55:04* sketch comedy group called Digital Well Being. *01:55:11* I love that project so much. *01:55:14* I have a lot of fun with it. *01:55:15* It's a fun time if you uh like really *01:55:17* Stupid humor. *01:55:20* Maybe this is a stupid little plug also, but I just recently finished a portfolio of all the music I've written for video games. *01:55:21* Um you can find that at BrianHankin. *01:55:28* com *01:55:31* Uh very proud of that. *01:55:32* So if you have a little project that you want me to write music for, BrianHanken. *01:55:34* com. *01:55:38* Go there. *01:55:39* I can attest. *01:55:40* Other than that. *01:55:41* He wrote theme music for behind the pixels. *01:55:42* So I hope you don't mind that I put that on there. *01:55:45* I don't mind that at all. *01:55:47* You wrote that music, that's yours. *01:55:48* There's an entire episode of b beneath the or *01:55:49* Wow, I didn't even mean to do that. *01:55:53* Uh behind the pixel on the website. *01:55:54* Um station. *01:55:57* That just means all the trolling. *01:56:00* I didn't even mean to do that. *01:56:04* That was a genuine mistake. *01:56:06* That's so funny. *01:56:08* Was that Michael or Mario that did that? *01:56:10* It was all of them. *01:56:12* They all did it. *01:56:13* But with that, thank you all so much for listening. *01:56:14* I hope you enjoyed this episode and look forward to the season three finale with Mabanjo Kazooie Grunty's Revenge. *01:56:16* Thank you all, and adios. *01:56:24* Chapter Select is a max frequency production. *01:56:27* This episode was research, produced, and edited by me, Max Roberts. *01:56:31* Season 3 is hosted by Logan Moore and myself. *01:56:35* Season three is all about Banjo Kazoe. *01:56:38* For more on this season, go to chapterselect. *01:56:41* com forward slash season three. *01:56:44* Follow the show at Chapter Select, and check out previous seasons at ChapterSelect dot com. *01:56:47*