# [[S7E3 - Metroid Prime 2 - Echoes]] Transcript This transcription was completed on October 6, 2025 with the application MacWhisper on macOS. This was done automatically, without human input during the transcription process. The transcription used the Parakeet v2 model. My hope is that by offering this transcription – however accurate it may be done by a machine learning/AI – will help you, the listener. I’d love to offer full, proper transcription some day, but that is not feasible at this time. Thank you for listening and reading. I hope you enjoy the show and that this document was helpful. Enjoy. --- **Max Roberts**: Hello, everybody, and welcome to Chapter Select, a seasonal retrospective podcast, where we bounce back and forth between a series exploring its evolution, design, and legacy. *00:00-00:08* **Max Roberts**: For this season, we are covering the Metroid Prime *00:08-00:13* **Max Roberts**: My name is Max Roberts and I am joined, as always, by Logan Moore. *00:12-00:15* **Max Roberts**: Hi, Logan. *00:15-00:16* **Logan Moore**: Did the term Echo Fighter stem from this game? *00:15-00:19* **Logan Moore**: Is that where they got that for Smash? *00:20-00:22* **Logan Moore**: Does it come from Metroid Prime 2? *00:22-00:24* **Max Roberts**: Um I think Dark Samus was one of the original Echo Fighters, so possibly. *00:22-00:29* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *00:28-00:29* **Logan Moore**: I mean the Echo Fighters are Dark Samus, Dark Pit, Daisy. *00:29-00:34* **Logan Moore**: I feel like a fire emblem character is probably thrown in there somewhere, like Lucina and *00:35-00:45* **Max Roberts**: No, I think all fire move characters are OG. *00:38-00:41* **Max Roberts**: You've got Richter and and Trevor. *00:42-00:45* **Logan Moore**: Richter and Simon. *00:45-00:46* **Max Roberts**: Richter Simon. *00:46-00:48* **Logan Moore**: Simon are kind of kind of echoes. *00:47-00:49* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, one of them is an echo, I think, Richter. *00:48-00:51* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *00:49-00:50* **Logan Moore**: But I do wonder if when they came up with that term, if they're like, What should we call these? *00:51-00:55* **Logan Moore**: and they're like, Ah *00:55-00:58* **Logan Moore**: Metroid Prime, Metroid Prime 2. *00:57-00:59* **Logan Moore**: Let's do that. *00:59-01:01* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, Sakurai's favorite Metroid Prime game. *01:01-01:04* **Logan Moore**: Apparently. *01:03-01:04* **Max Roberts**: It is yeah, it this is a game. *01:04-01:08* **Max Roberts**: This is a game *01:08-01:12* **Max Roberts**: For sure. *01:10-01:11* **Logan Moore**: It's yes. *01:13-01:15* **Logan Moore**: Um *01:15-01:22* **Max Roberts**: We kind of had this *01:15-01:20* **Max Roberts**: We're having this stretch in the middle of this season. *01:18-01:22* **Max Roberts**: Federation Force echoes. *01:22-01:25* **Max Roberts**: I'm curious I'm curious how Hunters holds up. *01:25-01:28* **Logan Moore**: Let's we're very eager, obviously, to dive in and talk about this one immediately because you and I have been playing this one for *01:28-01:40* **Max Roberts**: Been waiting to talk about this with you. *01:32-01:35* **Logan Moore**: I mean, to peel the curtain back a little bit. *01:38-01:39* **Logan Moore**: Months on and off. *01:40-01:41* **Logan Moore**: You started it before me. *01:41-01:42* **Logan Moore**: I came in and started it late. *01:42-01:44* **Logan Moore**: It has led to us playing this over a span of a couple months here, on and off, in between other. *01:44-01:49* **Max Roberts**: And I have just been silent to you. *01:48-01:50* **Max Roberts**: I have so many things. *01:50-01:52* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, we have not said anything to one another until kind of the past day. *01:50-01:56* **Logan Moore**: We've started indicating how we feel about this game to one another. *01:56-01:59* **Logan Moore**: So I'm very eager to talk about this. *02:00-02:02* **Max Roberts**: When you said you were on your way to the final boss, I said don't die. *02:01-02:04* **Max Roberts**: That was all I said. *02:04-02:05* **Logan Moore**: You should have said don't run out of time is what you should have said. *02:06-02:09* **Max Roberts**: I didn't want you to know there was a timer. *02:09-02:11* **Logan Moore**: We'll talk about that. *02:12-02:13* **Logan Moore**: Okay, let's dive into this because I'm already jumping into bed to discuss it. *02:13-02:18* **Logan Moore**: Metroid Prime 2 Echoes. *02:18-02:21* **Logan Moore**: Very good title for a game. *02:21-02:22* **Logan Moore**: I do like it. *02:22-02:23* **Max Roberts**: It's dark echoes in Japan, which I kinda think is cooler. *02:23-02:27* **Logan Moore**: It's clean. *02:23-02:25* **Logan Moore**: It's clean. *02:28-02:28* **Logan Moore**: It's got a good box art, too. *02:29-02:30* **Logan Moore**: I like it. *02:30-02:31* **Logan Moore**: Developed by Retro Studios. *02:31-02:33* **Logan Moore**: Released originally on the Nintendo GameCube. *02:33-02:36* **Logan Moore**: Was remastered or reworked or whatever you want to call it for the Nintendo Wii later as part of the Metroid Prime trilogy collection. *02:36-02:44* **Logan Moore**: It came out on GameCube on November 15th, 2004. *02:44-02:48* **Logan Moore**: It was developed by Mark Pacini or Pacini. *02:48-02:51* **Logan Moore**: The producers were Brian Walker, Kenji Miki, and Kensuke Tanabe. *02:51-02:55* **Logan Moore**: And then the music was done by Kenji Yamamoto. *02:55-02:58* **Logan Moore**: On Metacritic, the game has a staggering 92 out of 100 aggregate score, which *02:59-03:10* **Logan Moore**: Not too surprising. *03:08-03:09* **Logan Moore**: I mean, all the Metroid Prime games score very high. *03:09-03:13* **Logan Moore**: They're critical darlings. *03:13-03:15* **Max Roberts**: I was I was slightly surprised, but I think my favorite pull quote on Metacritic, Game Informer, ninety five out of a hundred. *03:14-03:23* **Max Roberts**: Rest in peace, Game Informer. *03:23-03:25* **Max Roberts**: I think last time we recorded, Game Informer still was living. *03:25-03:28* **Logan Moore**: I think they still existed. *03:27-03:30* **Max Roberts**: The quote there, I don't know who wrote this, but it says: I doubt Echoes will bring too many new players into the Metroid fold. *03:30-03:35* **Max Roberts**: But if you're an addict like myself, you enjoy. *03:35-03:38* **Max Roberts**: Each and every frustrating minute. *03:38-03:40* **Max Roberts**: I was like, ah, that actually is a pretty good sentence. *03:40-03:45* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, that's kind of uh I mean, I agree with the frustrating part of that. *03:45-03:50* **Logan Moore**: Let's just so first off, I did want to say this again. *03:52-03:55* **Logan Moore**: If you're listening to this whole season, you surely know this. *03:56-03:58* **Logan Moore**: But Metroid Prime 1 had a 97. *03:59-04:02* **Logan Moore**: out of 100 aggregate score. *04:02-04:04* **Max Roberts**: Okay, that sounds okay. *04:05-04:09* **Logan Moore**: And the remaster hadn't the remaster had a 94. *04:05-04:08* **Logan Moore**: So the critics do assert that this one is lesser. *04:09-04:14* **Logan Moore**: I think it's considerably lesser, though. *04:14-04:17* **Logan Moore**: This is what I will say. *04:17-04:18* **Logan Moore**: I think the original Metroid Prime is *04:19-04:24* **Logan Moore**: Far, far better in just about every aspect. *04:22-04:26* **Logan Moore**: Um, I don't think this game is horrible, but yeah, that word frustrating. *04:27-04:31* **Logan Moore**: This is a hugely frustrating game. *04:31-04:34* **Logan Moore**: Um *04:34-04:37* **Logan Moore**: In so so many ways and Yes, yes, it is. *04:36-04:47* **Max Roberts**: It would it's very old school in some of its design, if you really think about it. *04:39-04:45* **Max Roberts**: Old school in a two thousand four cents, not in a twenty twenty four cents. *04:47-04:51* **Max Roberts**: I guess like I guess almost happy like happy twentieth birthday to Metroid Prime too. *04:52-04:59* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *04:52-04:53* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, yeah, we're coming up on it here. *04:59-05:02* **Max Roberts**: In a in a few weeks. *05:00-05:02* **Logan Moore**: Mm-hmm. *05:02-05:03* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, at the time we're recording this. *05:03-05:04* **Logan Moore**: Um *05:04-05:07* **Logan Moore**: Where are you at? *05:06-05:06* **Logan Moore**: Do you like the because you're the Metroid guy, so I guess I've always been under the assumption that you love all of them equally and they're all your children, but you might have *05:07-05:19* **Max Roberts**: Well, you can't love every you can't you can't love all your children the same. *05:14-05:17* **Logan Moore**: You might have certain favorites that you love a little bit more, but *05:17-05:30* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, so Metroid Prime 2 Echoes, my very first experience with the game *05:22-05:30* **Max Roberts**: Was actually the demo disc included in like later prints of Metroid Prime? *05:29-05:33* **Max Roberts**: Obviously, closer to the 2004-ish time. *05:34-05:38* **Max Roberts**: It, I don't even remember what's on. *05:39-05:41* **Max Roberts**: I should have replayed the demo disc just to see kind of which area of the game it was. *05:41-05:45* **Max Roberts**: I forget, but that was my experience. *05:45-05:48* **Logan Moore**: I mean, would it just allow you to play the opening, I would imagine? *05:47-05:51* **Max Roberts**: And then *05:48-05:52* **Max Roberts**: Maybe it could have been an E3 demo of a certain section. *05:51-05:54* **Logan Moore**: Maybe? *05:51-05:51* **Max Roberts**: I don't know. *05:54-05:55* **Max Roberts**: I don't remember. *05:55-05:56* **Max Roberts**: But then later on, well past two thousand four at some point, I was in Michigan visiting my grandmother and her boyfriend. *05:57-06:04* **Max Roberts**: We were at a GameStop for some reason. *06:05-06:06* **Max Roberts**: It was like, You can get a game. *06:06-06:07* **Max Roberts**: I'll buy you a game or whatever. *06:07-06:09* **Max Roberts**: And I chose Metroid Prime 2 Echoes in its very shiny holographic box, thinking this was *06:10-06:19* **Max Roberts**: The logical thing to get. *06:18-06:19* **Max Roberts**: It was very cool. *06:19-06:20* **Max Roberts**: I think it was 17 bucks. *06:20-06:22* **Logan Moore**: Like I said, very sleek artwork, very good looking box art. *06:22-06:28* **Max Roberts**: It's like shiny. *06:26-06:28* **Max Roberts**: You can't really scan it well. *06:28-06:29* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *06:28-06:29* **Max Roberts**: It's tough to scan super well. *06:29-06:32* **Max Roberts**: And *06:32-06:36* **Max Roberts**: I liked the game. *06:34-06:35* **Max Roberts**: I played it. *06:35-06:36* **Max Roberts**: I think I got maybe four or five hours into it at whatever age this was at. *06:36-06:40* **Max Roberts**: I mean, let's say it was 2006 for fun of it. *06:41-06:45* **Max Roberts**: I was 10. *06:45-06:46* **Max Roberts**: I probably played a few hours of the multiplayer with my brother and some friends, but I remember the game just being hard. *06:47-06:56* **Max Roberts**: And going back and forth between the light and the dark world and feeling lost. *06:57-07:02* **Max Roberts**: And that's probably why I dropped off. *07:03-07:04* **Max Roberts**: So *07:05-07:07* **Max Roberts**: I never really got past probably Aegon Waste, like truly. *07:06-07:11* **Max Roberts**: I don't remember the bog may maybe got to the bog. *07:11-07:15* **Max Roberts**: I don't know. *07:15-07:16* **Max Roberts**: You know, four or five hours I could probably pull up my save. *07:16-07:19* **Max Roberts**: And that's it. *07:20-07:23* **Max Roberts**: Like, that was my that's my memory of the game up until now playing it. *07:23-07:28* **Logan Moore**: So you've never beaten this ever until here. *07:26-07:30* **Max Roberts**: No, no. *07:28-07:29* **Max Roberts**: I yeah, yeah, yeah, this is my first time beating this one. *07:29-07:32* **Max Roberts**: And I would later go on, I think Hunters would have been my next one. *07:33-07:37* **Max Roberts**: And I did beat that one 100% of that. *07:38-07:40* **Max Roberts**: So *07:41-07:44* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, this game just is it was hard to a kid. *07:43-07:47* **Max Roberts**: As hard as an adult. *07:47-07:49* **Logan Moore**: I was going to say, I think it's hard as an adult. *07:49-07:51* **Logan Moore**: And actually, so I was reading through some of the blurbs here from Metacritic as well, from outlets that reviewed it back in the day. *07:51-08:00* **Logan Moore**: And here's a good one from GameSpy. *08:00-08:02* **Logan Moore**: I love this opening sentence. *08:02-08:04* **Logan Moore**: If Retro's excellent 2002 Metroid Prime annoyed, frustrated, or simply didn't appeal to you, stop reading now. *08:04-08:11* **Logan Moore**: Because the new sequel featuring Nintendo's legendary bounty hunter is hitting the streets and it's all and it's more of the same, a lot more. *08:13-08:20* **Logan Moore**: Basically, just goes on to say, like, it's drastically more difficult, way more challenging, a lot more backtracking, a lot more, like *08:21-08:30* **Logan Moore**: Anything that may have bothered you about the previous game is kicked up to 11. *08:29-08:32* **Logan Moore**: I think that's my issue with it, is a lot of the things I liked about Prime was *08:33-08:42* **Logan Moore**: And look at in this, there's different zones in this game, different areas, and they all are different from one another. *08:41-08:46* **Logan Moore**: But everything in Prime 1 felt far more distinct from one another. *08:46-08:51* **Logan Moore**: Like each. *08:52-08:52* **Logan Moore**: Area felt wholly different, and it's not like there obviously are visual differences and music, and like we've got the *08:54-09:06* **Logan Moore**: What are the three main areas? *09:04-09:05* **Logan Moore**: What are they calling this game? *09:06-09:06* **Logan Moore**: Aegon Waste, Torvus Bog, Sanctuary Fortress, and then there's the is the Sky Temple just sort of the main central hub area that connects them all? *09:07-09:15* **Max Roberts**: No, the Sky Temple's the final final boss area. *09:15-09:19* **Logan Moore**: Okay, so I guess it's just aether or whatever *09:20-09:27* **Max Roberts**: Aether, aether, Aether. *09:21-09:23* **Max Roberts**: There's like the Temple or whatever in the middle. *09:23-09:25* **Logan Moore**: It's yeah, so each of them, you know, we've got a swamp, we've got more of a desert, and then we've got, and you've you've lovingly called this in our notes and to myself when we were talking about it previously, a Tron area. *09:25-09:36* **Logan Moore**: Which I think is pretty appropriate. *09:36-09:39* **Logan Moore**: Um, but it just doesn't hit the same way as some of the locations from Prime One, which still stick out in my memory, even though we've played that. *09:39-09:49* **Logan Moore**: Um *09:49-09:51* **Max Roberts**: A year ago. *09:49-09:51* **Logan Moore**: Quite a while ago at this point. *09:50-09:52* **Max Roberts**: It was October of last year. *09:52-09:54* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, so it's been a hot minute. *09:54-09:56* **Logan Moore**: And yeah, so I think that combined with a lot of the additional backtracking that you do in this game and *09:58-10:05* **Logan Moore**: Some of the other systems and mechanics, the light and the dark, which I just flat out do not like. *10:04-10:12* **Logan Moore**: I don't know if you want to get into talking about that now. *10:12-10:14* **Logan Moore**: It clearly is borrowing from Link to the Past, but I don't. *10:14-10:17* **Logan Moore**: I don't like I don't think this game stands out from a vibes perspective in the same way that Metroid Prime did, which was my favorite element of that game. *10:18-10:29* **Max Roberts**: Okay. *10:30-10:30* **Max Roberts**: I do want to establish how we both played this game first. *10:30-10:34* **Max Roberts**: I think that will provide some context for some things. *10:34-10:38* **Max Roberts**: Um, I played on a GameCube. *10:38-10:39* **Max Roberts**: I decided out of my two options available to me, GameCube or Wii, I was like, I sh and since we played Prime One Remastered on the Switch, I wanted some GameCube context since corruption's only on the Wii. *10:40-10:52* **Max Roberts**: And so I did play on my GameCube. *10:52-10:54* **Max Roberts**: But you, on the other hand, you played. *10:54-10:56* **Max Roberts**: You just couldn't wait for Nintendo. *10:57-10:59* **Logan Moore**: I played on a non-Nintendo handheld. *10:59-11:02* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, you couldn't wait for the switch port anymore. *11:02-11:04* **Max Roberts**: You tried to hold out. *11:05-11:06* **Logan Moore**: I will, yeah, I'll shout out Prime Hack though. *11:07-11:09* **Logan Moore**: So I played this on my Steam Deck with Prime Hack. *11:09-11:11* **Logan Moore**: Prime Hack's awesome. *11:11-11:13* **Logan Moore**: Like, that was my favorite part of this, is just how well *11:13-11:19* **Logan Moore**: That works as a mod for these games, and uh, it looked gorgeous. *11:18-11:23* **Logan Moore**: Like, it felt like this game just came out because it ratchets up the visuals, too. *11:23-11:28* **Logan Moore**: Obviously, I don't know the exact specs of what I was playing on my Steam Deck, but it looked fantastic. *11:29-11:35* **Logan Moore**: And I did originally try to play this on *11:35-11:42* **Logan Moore**: Wii. *11:40-11:41* **Logan Moore**: I have trilogy on my Wii and I hooked up my Wii and I started playing it. *11:42-11:45* **Logan Moore**: But just given how my current kind of room is set up, like I wasn't getting good, great connection with *11:45-11:55* **Logan Moore**: My sensor bar to my Wiimote. *11:53-11:55* **Logan Moore**: Like it was just kind of losing losing signal a little bit too much. *11:55-11:58* **Logan Moore**: I had to get things a little bit too specific in my room to play it that way. *11:58-12:03* **Logan Moore**: And also, I hurt my arm somehow earlier this year, and playing the Wii was putting a lot of strain on my forearm. *12:02-12:09* **Logan Moore**: It was killing me. *12:09-12:10* **Logan Moore**: So, I got like an hour into playing it on Wii, and I was like, I gotta stop. *12:10-12:13* **Logan Moore**: This is hurting me, like physical pain. *12:13-12:16* **Logan Moore**: Um, *12:16-12:17* **Logan Moore**: So so that's when the Steam Deck option came in, which I appreciate. *12:17-12:21* **Logan Moore**: I I really liked playing it on Steam Deck. *12:21-12:24* **Max Roberts**: I assume this is how you'll play the rest of them. *12:24-12:27* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, I'll play Corrupt or I will play Hunters on my 3DS just 'cause I have it and I will play that that way. *12:27-12:34* **Logan Moore**: But yeah, Corruption I'll probably play the same way. *12:34-12:36* **Logan Moore**: I have played corruption on Wii in the past, so I don't feel as bad about, you know, going defaulting to Steam Decks on that one. *12:36-12:45* **Max Roberts**: Sure. *12:42-12:42* **Max Roberts**: I wonder you could hack your three D S and then use the control stick as the camera control there. *12:43-12:50* **Max Roberts**: You can I'm pretty sure that is a thing. *12:50-12:53* **Logan Moore**: I could I kind of want to play Hunters just the way it was *12:50-12:59* **Logan Moore**: Made for the heck of it. *12:57-12:59* **Max Roberts**: Way it was intended. *12:58-12:59* **Logan Moore**: It's it's way shorter. *12:59-13:00* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *12:59-13:00* **Logan Moore**: It's what six to seven hours. *13:00-13:02* **Logan Moore**: So I don't feel like it'll be that crazy. *13:02-13:06* **Max Roberts**: One would hope. *13:03-13:04* **Max Roberts**: And the reason I wanted to set up the way that we played was you played with dual analog stick not really a too dissimilar an experience to what we had with Metroid Prime Remastered. *13:06-13:17* **Max Roberts**: But I was playing with a GameCube controller, obviously, no second analog stick. *13:18-13:24* **Max Roberts**: A lot of locking on, turning *13:25-13:30* **Logan Moore**: Was it a wave bird, though? *13:27-13:29* **Max Roberts**: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. *13:29-13:30* **Logan Moore**: The yeast. *13:30-13:30* **Max Roberts**: I'm not a heathen. *13:30-13:31* **Max Roberts**: Not a heathen. *13:31-13:32* **Max Roberts**: Um No. *13:32-13:36* **Logan Moore**: Didn't know if you're wiring it up over there. *13:33-13:35* **Max Roberts**: Uh I did wire up my bongos though to play Donkey Kong Jungle Beat. *13:36-13:40* **Logan Moore**: Good game. *13:40-13:40* **Max Roberts**: It is a good game actually. *13:41-13:42* **Max Roberts**: So that kind of set it up for me at least in this sense because *13:43-13:51* **Max Roberts**: I was worried how those controls would age, and then knowing what I knew about this game as far as the *13:49-13:59* **Max Roberts**: difficulty, which apparently was a goal for them, according to an interview, just a quote I found on the Wikipedia page, was like they were targeting the hardcore audience with this one. *13:57-14:08* **Max Roberts**: And always make the player always worried about their health, which they succeed in predominantly. *14:08-14:16* **Logan Moore**: I never really felt like I was running out of health, were you? *14:17-14:20* **Max Roberts**: And *14:17-14:21* **Max Roberts**: Uh I mean, yeah, I think the Dark Wilt does a decent job of that until you get that Dark Suit upgrade. *14:20-14:27* **Logan Moore**: Well, yes. *14:25-14:26* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *14:27-14:27* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *14:27-14:28* **Logan Moore**: Earl early on that's definitely a thing. *14:28-14:30* **Logan Moore**: But yeah, about what, three or four hours in, that kind of loses *14:31-14:39* **Max Roberts**: You get the the dark suit, the brown suit, and uh it it it eases up. *14:34-14:40* **Logan Moore**: Which is that suit's very ugly, to be honest. *14:38-14:43* **Max Roberts**: Oh, thank God. *14:42-14:42* **Max Roberts**: I thought you were going to say it was good looking. *14:43-14:44* **Max Roberts**: It's like, that's the ugliest. *14:44-14:45* **Logan Moore**: No, that suit looks horrible. *14:45-14:47* **Max Roberts**: And you're in the suit s you're in that suit for most of the game, and it's just you're it's hideous. *14:46-14:53* **Logan Moore**: Like 75% of the game. *14:51-14:52* **Logan Moore**: You're in the normal suit at the start, and then you get that ugly hunk of junk, and then you get the light suit there at the end. *14:52-14:58* **Logan Moore**: And then it just falls off Samus. *14:59-15:00* **Logan Moore**: Like, oh, that's it. *15:01-15:02* **Logan Moore**: So I'm gonna walk out in my normal gear now. *15:01-15:03* **Logan Moore**: Bye. *15:03-15:04* **Max Roberts**: I mean, the main hook of this game is that light and dark world mechanic. *15:04-15:09* **Max Roberts**: And this has so many implications to the Metroid formula. *15:09-15:17* **Max Roberts**: And I think it there are things that work from it and things that don't work from it. *15:19-15:22* **Max Roberts**: And I don't I don't how do you how did you feel overall about light world, dark world energy here? *15:22-15:29* **Logan Moore**: So this is the main reason why I just like this game, is that I think *15:29-15:36* **Logan Moore**: One of the best aspects of any Metroidvania is obviously you've got a map of your own that you can view within the game and see and consult at any time you need. *15:34-15:45* **Logan Moore**: But I'm making a map myself in my head of trying to remember where things are and kind of consulting my brain as I play through any Metroidvania game. *15:46-15:57* **Logan Moore**: And that was *15:58-16:00* **Logan Moore**: Near impossible because there are duplicates of every area in the game, and some, and there's always slight little differences here and there, which means you did have to consult your map a whole lot more and *15:59-16:14* **Logan Moore**: That ability to just pull from my memory, and you know, seeing this blast door that I can't get through because I need power bombs, and it's like making a mental note of, okay, I need to come back there. *16:14-16:24* **Logan Moore**: And again, I know this stuff is logged on your map. *16:24-16:26* **Logan Moore**: But that's kind of the satisfying gameplay loop I think of a Metroidvania is just having that sort of aha moment of remembering where you've seen things before and knowing that you can now go back to those areas. *16:26-16:38* **Logan Moore**: I felt like those were greatly diminished because my brain felt like it was scrambled at all times because the light areas and the dark areas were like merging together in my mind. *16:39-16:49* **Logan Moore**: And I'm like, wait, I know I've seen this. *16:49-16:51* **Logan Moore**: What area was that at? *16:51-16:53* **Logan Moore**: But what version of said area was it at? *16:53-16:55* **Logan Moore**: And it's still, it just is so confusing. *16:55-16:59* **Logan Moore**: And so that was my big hurdle. *17:00-17:03* **Logan Moore**: Really, from start to finish with this game. *17:04-17:05* **Logan Moore**: And obviously, we can get into some more stuff with how you have to get certain. *17:05-17:11* **Logan Moore**: Like item upgrades and the backtracking involved with them. *17:12-17:15* **Logan Moore**: We'll talk more about that in a second. *17:15-17:16* **Logan Moore**: But just generally, as far as the light and dark system goes, that was my big *17:16-17:23* **Logan Moore**: Annoyance with it. *17:21-17:22* **Logan Moore**: And I understand what they were going for. *17:22-17:23* **Logan Moore**: And I don't like on paper, I think this is a good idea. *17:24-17:26* **Logan Moore**: Like, hey, what if we take the *17:27-17:31* **Logan Moore**: You know, light and dark world stuff from Link to the Past and try that in the Metroidvania. *17:29-17:32* **Logan Moore**: Like, cool idea. *17:32-17:33* **Logan Moore**: Great idea. *17:34-17:34* **Logan Moore**: I just think it's *17:34-17:39* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, it's really, really challenging to the point of being, yeah, too frustrating. *17:37-17:43* **Logan Moore**: Again, going back to the word frustrating, like we talked about at the top. *17:43-17:47* **Max Roberts**: So for me, I was thinking about this and the the light world versions of these areas, the Aegon Waste, the Torvis Bog, and and *17:48-17:59* **Max Roberts**: Sanctuary Fortress are visually distinct enough. *17:58-18:01* **Max Roberts**: I think Torvis Bog and Aegon Waste are are close in color palette, but one is a goopy swamp and one is a desert. *18:02-18:08* **Max Roberts**: Like, you can you can tell those two about. *18:08-18:11* **Logan Moore**: There's a lot of browns in this game. *18:09-18:11* **Max Roberts**: It's very brown. *18:11-18:12* **Logan Moore**: Samus' suit, the environments. *18:11-18:14* **Logan Moore**: I don't know. *18:15-18:15* **Max Roberts**: Brown was a big color, kind of, in this generation, and leading into PS3. *18:16-18:21* **Logan Moore**: A lot of brown. *18:16-18:17* **Logan Moore**: Yes. *18:19-18:20* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *18:22-18:23* **Max Roberts**: Resistance follow men, shout out Brown now. *18:22-18:30* **Logan Moore**: Resistance. *18:25-18:26* **Logan Moore**: Obviously, the Call of Duties of that area were kind of heading that direction. *18:26-18:30* **Max Roberts**: And so you can tell those apart, but my I think what contributes to that confusion is not only then our *18:30-18:40* **Max Roberts**: Areas are replicated in the dark world, as one would assume if you're going to mirror dimensions and overlap planets and negative energy and stuff. *18:39-18:47* **Max Roberts**: But the dark world versions of every place ostensibly look the same because they're all purple goopy *18:47-18:58* **Max Roberts**: Areas with maybe the Sanctuary Fortress being the only standout because everything is cyber there. *18:56-19:03* **Max Roberts**: But the first two just kind of meld. *19:03-19:06* **Max Roberts**: And the other key *19:06-19:11* **Max Roberts**: problem is the dark world is not cohesive. *19:09-19:14* **Max Roberts**: There are entries and exits and chunks of the world. *19:14-19:18* **Max Roberts**: The entire space is not replicated. *19:18-19:20* **Max Roberts**: So you cannot free roam the dark realm *19:20-19:24* **Max Roberts**: If you are in one part of the map, you may not be able to get to another part of the map without having to leave, go through the light world, and then come back into the dark world. *19:23-19:31* **Max Roberts**: And that, combined with the fact you can't mentally. *19:32-19:36* **Max Roberts**: really grasp this whole map, I think, on a first playthrough, it just makes the backtracking even harder because you might thi know it's in one version, but you might go to the wrong door. *19:37-19:48* **Max Roberts**: And this is where like a modern version of this game, if it was made today, there would be a couple of key differences. *19:49-19:55* **Max Roberts**: But one of them would be you could mark your map. *19:56-19:58* **Max Roberts**: in a more sensical way for the player to know, like, oh, this secret is here or this portal goes to this portal. *19:58-20:08* **Logan Moore**: Did they do that in the Prime Remaster? *20:06-20:08* **Logan Moore**: I can't remember. *20:08-20:08* **Logan Moore**: Sorry to cut you off. *20:08-20:10* **Max Roberts**: You can't no, you can't mark the map in the Prime Remaster. *20:09-20:12* **Logan Moore**: Okay. *20:10-20:11* **Max Roberts**: But I like if this game was designed, not a just design ground up today, marking the map would be a part of it. *20:12-20:19* **Max Roberts**: My other *20:20-20:23* **Max Roberts**: So you're spending more time in the map. *20:21-20:23* **Max Roberts**: But then my other problem kind of goes with the map here is they try to make the game far more vertical *20:23-20:33* **Max Roberts**: And that makes sense in light of adding the screw attack later in the game and and other things like that. *20:31-20:37* **Max Roberts**: Um but the the the iconic 3D map *20:38-20:44* **Max Roberts**: Does not work. *20:43-20:44* **Logan Moore**: Is layered on top of itself. *20:43-20:46* **Max Roberts**: It's layered on top of itself. *20:45-20:46* **Max Roberts**: And so you might be trying to pan up a tower, but then it's automatically grabbing maybe part of the map behind it or off at an angle. *20:46-20:54* **Logan Moore**: Mhm. *20:47-20:47* **Max Roberts**: And so it's actually a very delicate. *20:54-20:57* **Max Roberts**: Maneuvering of this 3D object. *20:57-20:59* **Max Roberts**: And so the design of I wish, I guess, the light world was more segmented, like the dark world, where I could just kind of have individual chunks when viewing the map. *20:59-21:11* **Max Roberts**: And so I feel like those things all collide together to make navigating this entire planet *21:11-21:21* **Max Roberts**: Tougher than it should be, especially in a game where exploration is so vital. *21:20-21:27* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, I mean and it's that combination of everything you just said. *21:28-21:32* **Logan Moore**: Combined with what I was saying before. *21:32-21:34* **Logan Moore**: Like, do you agree that all of the locations in Prime One were far more memorable in a lot of senses? *21:34-21:39* **Logan Moore**: Maybe not all of them, but like. *21:40-21:41* **Max Roberts**: I remember Fentrana and the ship, like the ship, uh the the frigate crash site. *21:41-21:50* **Logan Moore**: Fendrana's the big one that I think everybody remembers obviously. *21:44-21:48* **Max Roberts**: Um *21:50-21:55* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, like there's a couple more in Prime 1 that I feel like just jump out to me. *21:51-21:55* **Logan Moore**: Like if I was to rank all the different biomes or areas, I feel like *21:55-22:01* **Logan Moore**: Aegon, Torvus Bog, and Sanctuary Fortress would like be near the bottom of a comprehensive list of like all eight, nine, ten of them across both games that we've seen now. *21:59-22:10* **Max Roberts**: I think the bog I think the bog is the standout in this game. *22:09-22:13* **Logan Moore**: The bog is good. *22:13-22:14* **Max Roberts**: I would I like the bog a lot. *22:13-22:16* **Logan Moore**: I mean the I mean the the the the music in the bog is very good. *22:15-22:18* **Logan Moore**: Um *22:18-22:21* **Logan Moore**: I think Aegon Waste is the most easy to traverse, so I kind of appreciated that because obviously, once you get to Sanctuary Fortress, you've unlocked. *22:19-22:30* **Logan Moore**: So many different abilities, and then you're getting the screw attack. *22:30-22:32* **Logan Moore**: And like you said, things are getting more vertical because you're bouncing off those. *22:32-22:35* **Logan Moore**: Then you've got the spider ball, and so you're climbing up walls with those. *22:35-22:38* **Logan Moore**: You have to pay far more attention in the sanctuary fortress to like. *22:38-22:43* **Logan Moore**: What is on walls and what's around you to kind of get a sense of where you're supposed to go. *22:43-22:49* **Max Roberts**: Well *22:49-22:54* **Logan Moore**: And I think that area in particular is. *22:49-22:52* **Logan Moore**: Perhaps the most frustrating to navigate because of that, because it builds up with everything else you've had *22:53-23:05* **Max Roberts**: Well, I mean, if I can we do a sanctuary fortress tangent here? *22:59-23:05* **Max Roberts**: I played the whole game without a guide up until the Sanctuary Fortress. *23:06-23:10* **Max Roberts**: It is an impossible maze to navigate, uh, I think. *23:10-23:14* **Max Roberts**: But I really hope you like the Morph Ball, because every single key thing involves the Morph Ball. *23:14-23:22* **Logan Moore**: Yes. *23:18-23:18* **Max Roberts**: Every boss fight, every power up, it is all the Morph Ball, and I hate it. *23:22-23:28* **Max Roberts**: At first I'm like, this is cute. *23:29-23:31* **Max Roberts**: An interesting idea. *23:31-23:33* **Max Roberts**: When you get I forget which power up, but there's like the Morph Ball Guardian, the Power Bomb Guardian, I think. *23:33-23:38* **Max Roberts**: That makes sense. *23:38-23:39* **Max Roberts**: It's like a map on the wall. *23:39-23:42* **Max Roberts**: It's 2D. *23:42-23:43* **Max Roberts**: You're floating around. *23:43-23:44* **Max Roberts**: That's cool. *23:44-23:45* **Max Roberts**: I'm like, that's cute. *23:45-23:47* **Max Roberts**: And then they're like, No, what if you did it more? *23:47-23:50* **Max Roberts**: What if we use the spider ball here? *23:50-23:51* **Max Roberts**: What if the final boss of the whole area involved using the morph ball to defeat it? *23:52-23:57* **Max Roberts**: Oh, I hope you like these tracking bombs on the wall. *23:57-24:00* **Max Roberts**: Better dodge those. *24:01-24:02* **Max Roberts**: Hope you don't die *24:02-24:10* **Logan Moore**: That was very annoying. *24:04-24:06* **Logan Moore**: When you have the spider ball and then other enemies start trying to shoot you down. *24:07-24:12* **Logan Moore**: Incredibly frustrating. *24:12-24:14* **Max Roberts**: I just they took a good idea too far. *24:14-24:17* **Max Roberts**: But I think my *24:17-24:21* **Max Roberts**: It's at this point in the game that it's just this Sanctuary Fortress super vertical. *24:20-24:25* **Max Roberts**: You have all this morph ball stuff. *24:26-24:28* **Max Roberts**: They really start leaning on like secrets are invisible here, which I don't like. *24:28-24:34* **Logan Moore**: Yes, which is the whole I mean, we'll talk about the nine keys, but what are we doing with that? *24:33-24:41* **Max Roberts**: I *24:34-24:39* **Max Roberts**: Well, yeah. *24:38-24:40* **Max Roberts**: It was I actually thought at one point in the Sanctuary Fortress that I had soft locked myself, which I was surprised that that *24:40-24:51* **Max Roberts**: Type of scenario could even happen in a prime game. *24:49-24:51* **Max Roberts**: But I was just like, I cannot escape. *24:52-24:54* **Max Roberts**: I can't get out of this area. *24:54-24:55* **Max Roberts**: I don't know what to do. *24:55-24:57* **Max Roberts**: The answer was to grapple across a canyon. *24:58-25:01* **Max Roberts**: It's actually on the other side of where one of the nine keys are, if you remember, the one that's like across a big gap. *25:01-25:09* **Max Roberts**: You have to hop the gap. *25:09-25:11* **Max Roberts**: There's a portal on that side, but you can't access it in this status. *25:11-25:17* **Max Roberts**: And you have to turn around back toward the grapple, and there's invisible switches, like the missile switches, on the wall over there, that you have to shoot that then, like, lowers a ladder or something of the equivalent, like a s *25:17-25:31* **Max Roberts**: Or turns the portal on, or something. *25:30-25:32* **Max Roberts**: But it's just invisible switches are bad. *25:32-25:37* **Max Roberts**: It actually reminds me of this. *25:37-25:39* **Max Roberts**: I went to a hotel a couple of weeks ago. *25:41-25:43* **Max Roberts**: This, I promise this makes sense. *25:43-25:45* **Max Roberts**: And the nightstand lamps were there. *25:46-25:50* **Max Roberts**: Obviously, and they were on when we entered. *25:51-25:54* **Max Roberts**: It was fine, whatever. *25:54-25:55* **Max Roberts**: When we came back and it was time to go to bed, I was trying to find the switch to shut them off. *25:55-25:59* **Max Roberts**: There's no twisty knob, there's no power button, there's nothing on the cord, there is no visible switch at all. *25:59-26:08* **Max Roberts**: So, what do you do in a hotel? *26:08-26:09* **Max Roberts**: You just unplug it. *26:09-26:10* **Max Roberts**: You're just like, I need you off, unplug from the wall. *26:10-26:13* **Max Roberts**: The following morning, I plug them back in and *26:13-26:19* **Max Roberts**: When we're leaving the hotel room, I put my hand down on the lamp to unplug a USB cable from it, and when I touched the base, the light turned off. *26:17-26:28* **Max Roberts**: The switch was invisible. *26:28-26:29* **Max Roberts**: It was touch-sensitive on the base, with zero indication that this would be the way to turn a light on and off. *26:29-26:36* **Logan Moore**: Maybe it was a clapper. *26:35-26:36* **Logan Moore**: You should have tried the clap. *26:37-26:38* **Max Roberts**: Maybe. *26:38-26:39* **Max Roberts**: But that's the same thing here. *26:39-26:41* **Max Roberts**: Instead of creating a visually interesting puzzle switch or some sort of solution. *26:42-26:48* **Max Roberts**: That you eventually could crack with the power-up. *26:49-26:51* **Max Roberts**: They just said, We'll make it invisible, and you have to use our black and red and white visor to find it. *26:51-26:58* **Max Roberts**: I hope you remember to use this all the time. *26:58-27:02* **Max Roberts**: Um that I think is poor game design. *27:02-27:05* **Max Roberts**: It's just making it invisible. *27:05-27:07* **Logan Moore**: I yeah, they really double down on the sort of invisible things in this game. *27:08-27:13* **Logan Moore**: I mean, this was an element of the first prime, but then in this one they do it with *27:13-27:20* **Logan Moore**: The infrared visor, or whatever it's called, and then the obviously the sound wave one, too. *27:18-27:24* **Logan Moore**: So, not only are you looking for, you know, but but they don't both like, why not just have them both *27:24-27:33* **Max Roberts**: Ah Ah, I'm not sure if I can do it. *27:25-27:29* **Logan Moore**: Overlap into being the same thing is my question. *27:31-27:35* **Logan Moore**: You know, like, like, I get it from like a world building perspective, or whatever you want to call it, but like *27:35-27:44* **Logan Moore**: Just making one the normal viewpoint, one the scan visor, and then the other one a combo of both of those two would have been, I feel like, great. *27:43-27:52* **Logan Moore**: Instead, it's that much more annoying because you're looking for sound wave things to interact with, and you're looking for things that are invisible in the environment. *27:53-28:01* **Logan Moore**: And obviously, they didn't come up too much until, like I mentioned, you're *28:01-28:07* **Logan Moore**: Searching for the nine keys and then everything is invis invisible, which feels completely insane to me. *28:05-28:12* **Logan Moore**: We'll talk about the nine keys and the great *28:12-28:17* **Logan Moore**: The great backtrack of them all. *28:15-28:17* **Logan Moore**: As far as the final thing on Sanctuary Fortress, though, like you mentioned the Morph Ball stuff, this is by far the most annoying area to backtrack through because of that. *28:17-28:26* **Logan Moore**: You are constantly. *28:26-28:28* **Logan Moore**: Getting through your morph vault. *28:28-28:29* **Logan Moore**: Like when you first solve some of these puzzles or unlock some of these pathways, it's like, okay, that's cool. *28:29-28:35* **Logan Moore**: I think of the big one *28:35-28:39* **Logan Moore**: Like where you have to line up the or you have to like drop a bomb in certain color coordinated things. *28:37-28:43* **Logan Moore**: And so it opens up that big middle pathway and they kind of align. *28:43-28:47* **Logan Moore**: I don't know if you remember what I'm talking about. *28:47-28:49* **Logan Moore**: But that's like a huge gap, or that's a huge centerpiece between two different sections of Sanctuary Fortress. *28:50-28:58* **Logan Moore**: And every time you have to get in your ball and go through that, it just takes, you know. *28:59-29:03* **Logan Moore**: It doesn't take too long, 15, 20, 30 seconds. *29:03-29:06* **Logan Moore**: But still, it's like, this is, it's frustrating to navigate because you're like, I know where I need to go, but there's so much time wasted just. *29:06-29:14* **Logan Moore**: hopping into a ball, j zip zipping along through the stuff that I've gone through fifty times over. *29:14-29:20* **Max Roberts**: Rolling through the thing. *29:16-29:17* **Logan Moore**: Um and they try to add some shortcuts and they try to, you know, interconnect all three of the areas with one another in different ways, which *29:20-29:29* **Logan Moore**: We could talk about a little bit too. *29:29-29:30* **Logan Moore**: But yeah, Sanctuary Fortress did not like least favorite of the three, even though aesthetically it might be. *29:31-29:37* **Logan Moore**: One of the more interesting ones, like Aegon Waste, I liked because again, it was a little bit more simple to get around, but it's pretty brown. *29:38-29:48* **Logan Moore**: It's a desert. *29:48-29:49* **Logan Moore**: So, yeah, I think. *29:53-29:54* **Logan Moore**: I mean, we've talked a lot about backtracking. *29:55-29:57* **Logan Moore**: Let's, and I mentioned how these are all interconnected with one another, too. *29:57-30:00* **Logan Moore**: Here's my other biggest problem with this game. *30:00-30:02* **Logan Moore**: Is that again, Aegon Waste this isn't a thing because it's the first area, but when you get to Torvus Bog, you get about halfway through the bog. *30:02-30:13* **Logan Moore**: And then you kind of get stuck. *30:13-30:15* **Logan Moore**: And you're like, okay, well, what do I do? *30:15-30:16* **Logan Moore**: Where do I go? *30:16-30:17* **Logan Moore**: And it turns out the solution is you have to then take one of the power-ups you've gotten at that point in the bog. *30:18-30:23* **Logan Moore**: And you have to go back to Aegon Waste. *30:23-30:25* **Logan Moore**: And I think that's when you unlock the Sioux or uh you unlock something really vital there. *30:25-30:31* **Max Roberts**: You have to go all the way back to like the main hub world and get the seeker missiles, which then will let you unlock the purple doors. *30:31-30:39* **Logan Moore**: Okay. *30:37-30:38* **Max Roberts**: which is where the underwater gravity boost thing is, is which what you need to explore the back half of Torvus Bok. *30:40-30:48* **Logan Moore**: Yes. *30:40-30:40* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *30:46-30:47* **Logan Moore**: But there's really no indication of this. *30:48-30:51* **Logan Moore**: And I know the game alerts you, you know, if you're. *30:51-30:54* **Logan Moore**: If you wander around for a certain amount of time, then the game will pop up with a notification saying, Hey, why don't you go check this out? *30:54-31:00* **Logan Moore**: But again, *31:00-31:04* **Logan Moore**: I wish all of the areas could have been, you know, you go to Aegon Waste, and if you want to go to Aegon Waste and you want to completely see it through, then you can get that done. *31:03-31:12* **Logan Moore**: And then same for Torvus Boggin, same for Sanctuary of Fortress, by like hard. *31:12-31:16* **Logan Moore**: Forcing you to stop and actively leave the zone you're in to return to one of the ones you've been before and then come back just totally kills. *31:16-31:25* **Logan Moore**: All of the momentum that you have in these areas, and all of the, you know, again, the frustration with like mapping these things out in your head because I'm navigating through the bog. *31:26-31:34* **Logan Moore**: I'm trying to figure out where everything's at. *31:34-31:35* **Logan Moore**: I'm in the bog zone. *31:35-31:37* **Logan Moore**: And then the walkthrough I'm in is like, nope, now you gotta return and go to one of these old places. *31:37-31:41* **Logan Moore**: I'm like, oh my gosh, where the frick does it want me to go now? *31:41-31:44* **Logan Moore**: And it's *31:44-31:47* **Logan Moore**: And then you get back in the bog finally after you got that and you're trying to get your bearings of, okay, oh, wait, what was in the bog again? *31:45-31:51* **Logan Moore**: And where am I at? *31:51-31:52* **Logan Moore**: And like, they would not let you fully explore these areas. *31:52-31:57* **Logan Moore**: And just get a full grasp on them and then maybe come back later. *31:58-32:01* **Logan Moore**: I think if they would have just let you do that and finish these areas in one go. *32:01-32:05* **Logan Moore**: And then do the like the nine keys thing later, and then you're doing a full backtrack of all three of them. *32:05-32:10* **Logan Moore**: I think that would have made a little bit more sense, but you have to *32:10-32:15* **Logan Moore**: You're in the bog, and then you go back to the hub world, and then you go back to the bog, and then you go to the sanctuary, and then you got to go back to the bog again, and then you go back to the s *32:13-32:20* **Logan Moore**: Saint Terrae, and then you're going back to the hub world, then you gotta go to all three of them. *32:20-32:22* **Logan Moore**: It's ultimate S *32:23-32:26* **Logan Moore**: Ridiculousness of backtracking in this game, which yes. *32:25-32:34* **Max Roberts**: It it's a tangled web of *32:27-32:31* **Max Roberts**: unsatisfying backtracking because these are forced backtracks in a three D space instead of like the exploratory ones. *32:30-32:38* **Max Roberts**: But you're not again, like we said, not backtracking one area, you're backtracking *32:39-32:44* **Max Roberts**: Six, because was it in the dark world or is it in the light world? *32:43-32:47* **Max Roberts**: And which area is it in? *32:47-32:48* **Logan Moore**: Yes. *32:47-32:48* **Max Roberts**: Oh, I've got to walk through this. *32:48-32:51* **Logan Moore**: And what are my entry and exit points for the Dark World and Light World? *32:49-32:52* **Logan Moore**: I forget, 'cause I know I can go in here, but then that might stop me here, and I know I need to get to this point. *32:53-32:58* **Logan Moore**: It's like only once you have all the upgrades at the end and you are searching for the keys can you kind of go into the dark world and have all paths open for you because you'll get stopped by *32:59-33:12* **Logan Moore**: You know, this is a power bomb door or something like that. *33:10-33:12* **Logan Moore**: And they don't want you to have the full ability to explore these areas, and they want you to use these set entry and exit points. *33:12-33:20* **Logan Moore**: With the warp areas, or whatever you want to call them. *33:21-33:24* **Logan Moore**: It's frustrating. *33:24-33:25* **Logan Moore**: It's so, so frustrating. *33:25-33:27* **Logan Moore**: And again, just to stress this. *33:28-33:30* **Logan Moore**: I've played plenty of Metroidvanias. *33:30-33:32* **Logan Moore**: I know that, you know, backtracking and going back to previous areas, huge part of the genre. *33:32-33:37* **Logan Moore**: It's one of the. *33:38-33:38* **Logan Moore**: But it's supposed to be one of the enjoyable parts of the genre. *33:39-33:42* **Logan Moore**: You're supposed to kind of want to do that yourself. *33:42-33:46* **Logan Moore**: Like I think about a game like *33:46-33:50* **Logan Moore**: Arkham City, where it's like you see all these areas. *33:49-33:52* **Logan Moore**: Now it's a game that I feel like is a little bit more segmented, and you can kind of map out each area in your mind, and then you have a desire to go back to. *33:52-34:00* **Logan Moore**: Okay, let me go back to the factory at the start of the game where the Joker was, and let me go knock all these things out and get all these Riddler trophies that I know I should be able to get now. *33:59-34:07* **Logan Moore**: Like, stuff like that. *34:07-34:08* **Logan Moore**: This game is forcing you to do the backtracking rather than just being able to progress forward in a manner that is satisfying. *34:09-34:16* **Logan Moore**: And that is what is *34:16-34:20* **Logan Moore**: Greatly annoying about it. *34:19-34:21* **Logan Moore**: Do you want to talk specifically about the keys? *34:22-34:25* **Logan Moore**: The nine keys? *34:26-34:26* **Logan Moore**: There's the nine keys at the end, but obviously you're chasing keys the whole game. *34:27-34:30* **Logan Moore**: You got to get. *34:30-34:31* **Logan Moore**: Like 18 of them throughout the whole game. *34:31-34:34* **Max Roberts**: I guess, yeah, three for each world, yeah. *34:33-34:36* **Max Roberts**: So the three keys, like, as you're going through the game, whatever. *34:36-34:43* **Max Roberts**: Like, that's *34:44-34:47* **Max Roberts**: If that's how you want to lock a temple away. *34:45-34:48* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *34:45-34:46* **Logan Moore**: In Aegon Waste, I had found like two of them, I think, before I even knew I was supposed to be chasing them. *34:46-34:52* **Logan Moore**: And then it's like, oh, you need these keys. *34:52-34:54* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *34:52-34:53* **Logan Moore**: And it's like, oh, these things I found already? *34:54-34:55* **Logan Moore**: Okay, sure. *34:56-34:56* **Max Roberts**: It's yeah, I'm it's fine. *34:58-35:01* **Max Roberts**: It's when you get toward the end of the game and you've scanned a couple of logs and like some of the the bug people I forget the the um *35:01-35:10* **Max Roberts**: You know, they're like, My key is now here, or something. *35:10-35:13* **Max Roberts**: Like, they talk about dying and sacrificing, but you're never really like, oh. *35:14-35:19* **Max Roberts**: I guess this is what I need to f get to the final area, but then it's like, and now you must go find nine keys, and it's like *35:20-35:30* **Max Roberts**: Oh no *35:29-35:41* **Logan Moore**: And it's so unsatisfying at that moment because the whole game builds up to you, you know. *35:32-35:39* **Logan Moore**: Kicking on all three of the lights and bringing them back into unification with the, and then you finally do it, and you're like, Yes, awesome! *35:39-35:45* **Logan Moore**: Finally, time to see what this unlocks and where I need to go. *35:46-35:48* **Logan Moore**: And then the bug homies like, just kidding. *35:49-35:51* **Logan Moore**: Go find nine keys. *35:51-35:53* **Logan Moore**: It's like, oh my gosh, are you serious? *35:53-35:56* **Max Roberts**: I do think I do think the like *35:56-36:02* **Logan Moore**: So *35:57-36:04* **Max Roberts**: In game solution to finding the keys, like the area of the keys, is cool. *36:00-36:07* **Max Roberts**: With the lore drops and scanning the faces, and it matches up with the lore entries that you theory and they're they're blue aliens instead of other colors, so like they're visually distinct in the overworld. *36:08-36:20* **Logan Moore**: Like scanning the faces of the different uh yeah. *36:08-36:12* **Max Roberts**: I like that. *36:20-36:21* **Max Roberts**: I did find one of the keys before reaching the end of the game, and it was that one in Sanctuary Fortress. *36:21-36:27* **Max Roberts**: I was like, I know something's over there again, because I was in the Dark Visor in that space and saw the *36:27-36:34* **Max Roberts**: octopus floating jellyfish thing. *36:33-36:35* **Max Roberts**: It was like, I want that and went and got it. *36:35-36:37* **Max Roberts**: I was like, okay, this is something I'll need. *36:37-36:38* **Max Roberts**: Didn't realize there were s eight more that I had to get. *36:39-36:42* **Max Roberts**: But it is, like you said, it is just a total pace killer. *36:42-36:46* **Max Roberts**: You are ready. *36:47-36:48* **Max Roberts**: And I think the intent is: well, now you're all powerful. *36:49-36:52* **Max Roberts**: You have everything you need. *36:52-36:53* **Max Roberts**: You have the light suit. *36:53-36:55* **Max Roberts**: All of your power-ups, you have so many missile and ammo expansions, you've got all your energy tanks. *36:55-37:00* **Max Roberts**: Like you are now an unstoppable force, and it lets you ransack the dark world in a way. *37:00-37:08* **Max Roberts**: But it is just not fun to get to the end and be told no, you need to go back now. *37:08-37:15* **Max Roberts**: It it's just not fun. *37:15-37:22* **Logan Moore**: Well, the whole time you're going through, obviously, all through these areas, you're making mental notes of, okay, there's this door here. *37:20-37:27* **Logan Moore**: I know I haven't gone through this door here. *37:27-37:28* **Logan Moore**: And so being able to go back to these places is, you know. *37:28-37:32* **Logan Moore**: There is a satisfaction in going back to them and now knowing that you can get everywhere, which is you've been stopped the whole game because you don't have certain power-ups, you don't have certain items or certain suits. *37:32-37:44* **Logan Moore**: So, there's a satisfaction in that regard. *37:44-37:46* **Logan Moore**: But a lot of times, I would try to be like, okay, maybe there's a key in here. *37:46-37:49* **Logan Moore**: And it's like, nope, just a missile upgrade or something like that. *37:49-37:52* **Logan Moore**: So you're like, no, I don't want like. *37:52-37:54* **Logan Moore**: Which is again, there's a satisfaction in finding those too. *37:54-37:58* **Logan Moore**: But like a lot of these doors that you were you saw 10 hours prior, that you're like, oh, cool, now I can jump through that. *37:58-38:04* **Logan Moore**: You walk through, and it's just *38:04-38:08* **Logan Moore**: A power bomb upgrade, a missile upgrade. *38:06-38:08* **Logan Moore**: It's like, okay, well, that's kind of unsatisfying. *38:09-38:12* **Logan Moore**: That's the only thing that was behind that door that I saw so long ago. *38:12-38:17* **Logan Moore**: But again, this has been. *38:18-38:20* **Logan Moore**: My thing from the beginning with Metroid is I think that is one of the most unsatisfying aspects of Metroid full stop in any of the games. *38:21-38:30* **Logan Moore**: Is that ninety percent of the things you're getting or the items you're going out of your way to get or the upgrades you're getting are just How about five more missiles? *38:30-38:39* **Logan Moore**: How's that sound? *38:39-38:39* **Logan Moore**: Good? *38:40-38:40* **Logan Moore**: Great. *38:40-38:41* **Logan Moore**: And then, like, in this game, the missiles don't even really play a huge part in, like, the final late stage areas. *38:41-38:48* **Logan Moore**: Like, maybe with Emperor Ng or whatever it's called, I used him a lot there, especially on, like, his little tentacles. *38:48-38:55* **Max Roberts**: I don't know. *38:53-38:54* **Max Roberts**: I I think missiles missiles are just another ammo currency to combine with the the elemental ammo. *38:54-39:00* **Logan Moore**: With the elementals, yeah. *39:00-39:01* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, and and then obviously the uh the m seeker missile doors as well, where you'd need five to unlock those. *39:01-39:10* **Max Roberts**: So missiles are more like *39:11-39:15* **Max Roberts**: Mechanical in that way, if that makes sense, instead of just dealing tons and tons of damage. *39:15-39:19* **Logan Moore**: The cherry the cherry on top of the keys, though, really, is like you were saying. *39:20-39:26* **Logan Moore**: They stuff all of the keys in invisible floating alien things. *39:28-39:33* **Logan Moore**: Like, if you need to define nine keys. *39:34-39:36* **Logan Moore**: They could have just, you know, made them a little bit more apparent of where they're at. *39:37-39:41* **Logan Moore**: And I get that they want you to consult the lore and scan these things and try to figure it out on your own. *39:41-39:47* **Logan Moore**: Like, it's very dense world building. *39:48-39:51* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, but in Prime One they were invisible, but they were just hidden inside *39:48-39:56* **Max Roberts**: objects where y if you figured out the environmental puzzle they were having you solve to like knock the tower over or blow up the magma rock *39:54-40:05* **Logan Moore**: Yes. *39:56-39:56* **Max Roberts**: You could have naturally stumbled across that. *40:04-40:06* **Max Roberts**: But you ch the only way to stumble across invisible jellyfish is if you're in the room and you have you turn your dark visor on. *40:06-40:13* **Logan Moore**: And you kick on your visor. *40:11-40:13* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *40:13-40:13* **Max Roberts**: And you just happen to see it floating. *40:14-40:15* **Max Roberts**: You're like, I wonder what that is. *40:15-40:16* **Max Roberts**: It *40:17-40:18* **Max Roberts**: It's so silly to make a critical item just invisible. *40:18-40:24* **Logan Moore**: The most critical item, one could argue. *40:25-40:28* **Max Roberts**: The mo like for endgame progress, the most critical. *40:26-40:30* **Max Roberts**: It's just uh it's a big fat bummer. *40:30-40:35* **Max Roberts**: I mean, I followed a guide. *40:36-40:37* **Max Roberts**: I was like, I don't, that's what I did. *40:37-40:38* **Max Roberts**: I turned to it. *40:38-40:39* **Max Roberts**: I was like, I don't want to do this. *40:39-40:41* **Max Roberts**: Optimize my flow, please. *40:41-40:43* **Max Roberts**: Let me get back to where I want to be, which is going off to find the final boss. *40:43-40:47* **Max Roberts**: I would have. *40:47-40:48* **Max Roberts**: This is like, you know, dream scenarios or whatever. *40:49-40:51* **Max Roberts**: I get this game had a cr uh yet another crunch scenario to get it out the door on time in November of 2004. *40:51-40:58* **Max Roberts**: But like, I would have much rather the Sky Temple be *40:58-41:03* **Max Roberts**: another temple than nine keys around and like find them all. *41:02-41:08* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *41:07-41:08* **Max Roberts**: I just like, yeah, it felt padded *41:08-41:15* **Logan Moore**: I thought that the sky temple was actually going to be a location, and instead it's like a hallway in a big room. *41:09-41:16* **Logan Moore**: And that's about it. *41:16-41:17* **Max Roberts**: But also, though, by that point of the game, after the nine keys, I was glad it was a hallway and a room. *41:17-41:24* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, same here. *41:23-41:25* **Logan Moore**: I didn't want it to be anything else by that point. *41:25-41:27* **Logan Moore**: I was ready for this to be over. *41:27-41:29* **Logan Moore**: We've talked a lot about the world design and the structure, which I think is obviously the main thing to talk about with any Metroid Vanie or any one of these Metroid games. *41:31-41:39* **Logan Moore**: I did want to ask you. *41:39-41:41* **Logan Moore**: I want to talk about story, but I want to hold on that for a second. *41:42-41:44* **Logan Moore**: Let's dive into gameplay because I feel like this kind of goes in tandem more with the world design stuff. *41:44-41:49* **Logan Moore**: And we've also already been talking about it a little *41:49-41:54* **Logan Moore**: How do you feel about what's here? *41:52-41:55* **Logan Moore**: For the most part, all the abilities are the same as what was in Metroid Prime 1. *41:56-42:00* **Logan Moore**: There are obviously some differences with light and dark beams and stuff like that. *42:00-42:05* **Logan Moore**: How do you feel about your Samus' array of upgrades that she can get in this game? *42:07-42:13* **Max Roberts**: I think the visors are weak. *42:12-42:14* **Max Roberts**: Visors are weak sauce this time around. *42:15-42:16* **Max Roberts**: It was actually a pretty big bummer for me. *42:16-42:18* **Max Roberts**: I think the beams are *42:18-42:22* **Max Roberts**: thematically fine. *42:21-42:22* **Max Roberts**: I don't think gameplay wise they contribute all that much. *42:22-42:26* **Max Roberts**: I would have rather had wave and, you know, freeze beams and and things like that. *42:26-42:31* **Logan Moore**: It adds yet another ammo currency that you're also always on the hunt for. *42:32-42:36* **Logan Moore**: And sometimes you need them to get through certain doors. *42:37-42:40* **Logan Moore**: So I felt like I never wanted to use them because if I was out and all of a sudden I stumble across a door that I need to shoot through with a corresponding beam, I wanted to make sure I had that ammo on hand. *42:40-42:51* **Max Roberts**: Thankfully, they are generous. *42:52-42:53* **Max Roberts**: It's a very Ikaruga. *42:53-42:55* **Max Roberts**: Have you ever played that game? *42:55-42:56* **Max Roberts**: Shmup. *42:57-42:58* **Logan Moore**: I have I have not. *42:58-42:59* **Max Roberts**: It's s a very similar light, dark ammo type thing. *42:59-43:02* **Max Roberts**: Like when you are I think it it it it's like when you're in dark ammo, like dark stuff doesn't hurt you, but the white does, and you have to keep flipping between, if I remember. *43:02-43:11* **Max Roberts**: the pattern correctly. *43:11-43:12* **Max Roberts**: So if you shoot something with the light beam, dark ammo comes out. *43:12-43:15* **Max Roberts**: And if you shoot stuff with the dark beam so they are very generous and there is a a game play way to farm the ammo back that you *43:15-43:23* **Max Roberts**: Need. *43:21-43:22* **Max Roberts**: And if you're truly out of both, eventually the game will just spit the ammo to you after you fill up all your other things first. *43:22-43:29* **Max Roberts**: So I think it is fair in in that sense. *43:30-43:33* **Max Roberts**: Like you you're never like truly out of an option to get it because there's something you can shoot to farm ammo out. *43:34-43:40* **Max Roberts**: I just I think it's fine. *43:42-43:45* **Max Roberts**: I just don't think it felt it like fits in this game, but I don't think it felt very Metroid. *43:45-43:51* **Max Roberts**: I do like how the Annihilator beam takes both ammos, like it's a true fusion, but that also just felt like a. *43:52-43:59* **Logan Moore**: That's really cool. *43:57-43:58* **Max Roberts**: Cop-out isn't the right word, but just like, oh, it's just light and dark beams together. *44:01-44:06* **Max Roberts**: Like, it didn't feel diverse. *44:06-44:08* **Max Roberts**: This game felt very tuned in on the light and dark stuff. *44:08-44:12* **Max Roberts**: And I was kind of tired of it by the end there. *44:13-44:17* **Logan Moore**: I think the beams from Metroid Prime One, you know, the ice beam, uh isn't there like a wave beam or something like that too? *44:17-44:24* **Logan Moore**: And then there's the um *44:25-44:27* **Logan Moore**: like the magma fire like one. *44:27-44:29* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, I I thought those were much cooler, far more different from one another. *44:29-44:34* **Logan Moore**: I do like the combo of you know light and dark. *44:34-44:37* **Logan Moore**: I think that's cool. *44:37-44:38* **Logan Moore**: Again, for the most part, though, yeah, didn't really I didn't I didn't hate the light and dark stuff, but I didn't *44:39-44:49* **Logan Moore**: prefer it over what had already been in the series. *44:47-44:50* **Logan Moore**: Again, fits with the theme, fits with everything, you know, with Dark Samus, Light and Dark World. *44:50-44:55* **Logan Moore**: I get it. *44:55-44:56* **Logan Moore**: Um, it's not necessarily my favorite either. *44:56-45:00* **Logan Moore**: And yeah, other than that, like, there's really what's the only other new things in this game, otherwise, is it the screw attack? *45:00-45:06* **Max Roberts**: Screw screw attack *45:05-45:10* **Logan Moore**: Which I hated, to be honest. *45:07-45:10* **Max Roberts**: Ugh, you were a hater. *45:09-45:11* **Logan Moore**: I think I feel like it is very specific at the way you have to use it. *45:10-45:19* **Max Roberts**: It has a very particular cadence that is slower. *45:19-45:24* **Logan Moore**: It has a very particular cadence. *45:22-45:24* **Logan Moore**: Yes, it wants you to do it slowly, but not too slow, or else you won't start it in time, and then you're just falling to the ground. *45:25-45:34* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, I know I wrote the same thing down. *45:32-45:34* **Max Roberts**: I was like, it's not transferring well to 3D. *45:34-45:35* **Max Roberts**: Because in 3D it's it's fast, it's snappy, it feels good. *45:35-45:40* **Max Roberts**: This one was like *45:40-45:43* **Max Roberts**: You've got to match your rhythm just right. *45:42-45:45* **Max Roberts**: And even like mid-jump, if you miss it, you know, you push it too fast or too slow, you'll fall out of the animation. *45:45-45:50* **Max Roberts**: It's just, it's not very gracious. *45:51-45:53* **Logan Moore**: It doesn't just want you to use the screw attack off certain walls and stuff like that to bounce. *45:53-45:57* **Logan Moore**: In certain areas, it wants you to use them to thread a needle. *45:57-46:01* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, across chasms. *45:58-46:00* **Logan Moore**: I think of after you defeat Emperor Ng, that countdown timer starts. *46:01-46:06* **Logan Moore**: And the platform rises up, and then the door's over there, and you have to screw attack through the door, but it is so tiny. *46:06-46:11* **Logan Moore**: I burnt like ninety seconds of the timer there at the end, just trying to screw attack *46:12-46:20* **Max Roberts**: I don't remember having to do that. *46:16-46:18* **Max Roberts**: I don't think you've. *46:19-46:20* **Logan Moore**: I unless there is a secret unless there's like a hidden platform or something with the thermal vision that you can see uh *46:19-46:32* **Max Roberts**: I don't remember that. *46:26-46:27* **Max Roberts**: I'll have to look at my footage. *46:27-46:29* **Max Roberts**: It yeah, the screw attack is just delicate. *46:29-46:33* **Logan Moore**: But yeah, you have to like thread through this doorway with the screw attacker. *46:32-46:36* **Logan Moore**: At least I did. *46:36-46:37* **Logan Moore**: And then you have to get through there and then you gotta go fight Dark Samus at the end. *46:37-46:40* **Logan Moore**: And I was so concerned that I had burnt. *46:40-46:42* **Logan Moore**: Too much of my time trying to screw attack through this doorway that I wasn't going to have enough time to beat Dark Samus. *46:42-46:48* **Logan Moore**: And so I was like, hold on *46:48-46:52* **Logan Moore**: I gotta look up how you beat Dark Samus before I s it start on this fight because I don't wanna run out of time. *46:50-46:56* **Logan Moore**: And so it was I had to look up the fight solution *46:56-47:03* **Max Roberts**: So you you looked it up before you started. *46:58-47:01* **Max Roberts**: Okay. *47:01-47:02* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, because I did not want to die there, because then I know doing so would restart the entire Emperor Ng fight, and then Dark Samuel Sant. *47:01-47:11* **Logan Moore**: Which is why I have actually I said I've played Prime 3 before, I've never beaten Prime 3 because I died on the final boss fight in that game against Dark Samus. *47:12-47:22* **Logan Moore**: And yeah, same sort of thing. *47:23-47:25* **Logan Moore**: Like the last, the most recent save before you get to that final boss fight is like thirty minutes beforehand. *47:25-47:30* **Logan Moore**: And I was like, you know, I think I'm good. *47:30-47:33* **Logan Moore**: I think we'll just say that I beat the game and saved the world or the galaxy or whatever. *47:34-47:39* **Logan Moore**: So, yeah, I want to make sure I can beat that. *47:41-47:43* **Logan Moore**: Screw attack is cool. *47:43-47:44* **Logan Moore**: I think it's the coolest little ability that Samus has for sure, but it is just very. *47:44-47:50* **Logan Moore**: Particular, it's hard to use properly, so that's my main pushback against that one, and otherwise, I don't feel like there's really *47:51-48:03* **Logan Moore**: Anything else different? *48:01-48:02* **Logan Moore**: I mean, the visors, which we both don't like. *48:02-48:09* **Max Roberts**: The visors, there's the gravity boost, is di is new. *48:04-48:07* **Max Roberts**: Um like an underwater jetpack. *48:07-48:10* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *48:09-48:10* **Max Roberts**: Essentially, that was interesting. *48:10-48:11* **Max Roberts**: I kind of just thought it'd be a various suit power-up equivalent. *48:11-48:14* **Max Roberts**: Like, I'd just be able to move freely. *48:14-48:16* **Max Roberts**: And they were like, No, you get a float underwater jump. *48:16-48:18* **Max Roberts**: I'm like, Okay. *48:18-48:20* **Max Roberts**: I could deal with that. *48:22-48:24* **Max Roberts**: So yeah, that's kind of it. *48:26-48:28* **Max Roberts**: Which is fine. *48:28-48:30* **Max Roberts**: Like the the the prime formula *48:30-48:35* **Max Roberts**: works as far as that gameplay goes. *48:33-48:35* **Max Roberts**: I just think they were too thematically tight. *48:35-48:38* **Max Roberts**: It didn't feel spacey enough. *48:38-48:41* **Max Roberts**: Um *48:41-48:44* **Max Roberts**: You know, a surprising lack of new Morphball stuff, despite all of the Morph Ball content. *48:42-48:48* **Max Roberts**: So what are you, you know, what are you gonna do? *48:48-48:52* **Logan Moore**: I don't really feel like there's a lot else to say on gameplay, unless you want to talk about like the boss fights here. *48:52-48:57* **Max Roberts**: I d yeah, I do want to talk about those. *48:57-48:59* **Max Roberts**: They're hard. *48:59-49:00* **Logan Moore**: You clearly hated the Sanctuary Fortress one. *49:00-49:02* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *49:03-49:03* **Max Roberts**: A lot of too much morph ball there. *49:04-49:06* **Max Roberts**: Uh, they're hard. *49:07-49:07* **Max Roberts**: I remember boost ball being particularly difficult. *49:07-49:11* **Max Roberts**: With that one Ng, where shocker, morph ball. *49:11-49:16* **Max Roberts**: That one took me a while. *49:17-49:19* **Max Roberts**: Actually, I had to look up a guide on just like some speedrun strats of like, how do I beat this thing? *49:19-49:24* **Max Roberts**: That was pretty tough. *49:25-49:26* **Max Roberts**: I think overall, when you combine the Dark World eats your health away mechanic with fighting these bosses. *49:27-49:35* **Max Roberts**: It adds a level of tension to it that a normal Metroid boss fight just didn't have. *49:35-49:39* **Max Roberts**: So I did like that tension there. *49:39-49:42* **Max Roberts**: And generally the game is generous with giving you health drops at certain phases and things like that. *49:43-49:49* **Max Roberts**: Like the risk is is low, mid to late game, of you actually dying in the dark world to a boss fight, unless the boss itself beats you. *49:49-49:57* **Max Roberts**: But that tension is still there. *49:57-50:00* **Max Roberts**: Then the Emperor Ng fight, I ran out of ammo. *50:01-50:07* **Logan Moore**: I was gonna say, did you die on this? *50:07-50:08* **Max Roberts**: I did not die. *50:08-50:10* **Logan Moore**: Is this why you warned me? *50:09-50:10* **Max Roberts**: No, I almost died twice and knew what was gonna be my consequence. *50:10-50:16* **Logan Moore**: Okay. *50:10-50:11* **Max Roberts**: So Emperor Ng itself is a *50:16-50:23* **Max Roberts**: You gotta use the right ammo. *50:22-50:23* **Max Roberts**: So I hope you found all the ammo pickups. *50:24-50:26* **Max Roberts**: And I hope you don't run out of ammo. *50:27-50:29* **Max Roberts**: Because I ran out of ammo. *50:30-50:31* **Max Roberts**: And at that point, it's just dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge, dodge until ammo falls from the sky. *50:31-50:38* **Max Roberts**: 'Cause you can't do it 'cause the game was like, Oh, I can't you can't shoot anything, so what you got to do? *50:38-50:44* **Max Roberts**: That was just very stressful and technical *50:44-50:50* **Max Roberts**: There's just nothing. *50:49-50:50* **Max Roberts**: I don't know. *50:51-50:51* **Max Roberts**: It's too hard there. *50:51-50:52* **Max Roberts**: The Annihilator beam is good, but you go through it quick. *50:52-50:57* **Max Roberts**: Dark Sant. *50:57-50:58* **Logan Moore**: Oh, I didn't even think to use that. *50:57-50:59* **Logan Moore**: Can you use that on him just by default, no matter what color he is? *50:59-51:02* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *51:03-51:03* **Logan Moore**: Like if he's okay, huh. *51:03-51:06* **Max Roberts**: So then, hope you have enough of that ammo left over after fighting Emperor Ng for Dark Samus. *51:06-51:13* **Logan Moore**: For Dark Samus. *51:11-51:13* **Max Roberts**: So you get to Dark Samus, and so I want to say this. *51:14-51:18* **Max Roberts**: I really like the escape sequence and a final boss fight being together. *51:18-51:26* **Max Roberts**: I think that creates actually a real sense of urgency and pressure and escape and just like a run for your life type scenario. *51:25-51:36* **Max Roberts**: I think it's really cool. *51:37-51:38* **Max Roberts**: That being said, the solution to beating Dark Samus is a mechanic that is not given to you at any time beforehand *51:39-51:52* **Max Roberts**: I really hope you just figured it out naturally or you're going to die. *51:50-51:54* **Logan Moore**: Yep. *51:51-51:51* **Max Roberts**: Because I got down to about two minutes and was like, How do I defeat this? *51:54-52:01* **Max Roberts**: And I had to look it up. *52:01-52:02* **Max Roberts**: And you have to suck in these orbs. *52:03-52:05* **Max Roberts**: And I believe I was seconds away from like a game over. *52:05-52:10* **Max Roberts**: And it was just because of a classic game design problem of introducing a new mechanic. *52:11-52:19* **Logan Moore**: Well, when you scan Dark Samus, it says something like, Oh, maybe you can use the *52:19-52:26* **Logan Moore**: Phase on and redirect it redirected, or like you can charge up the phase on and or something like that. *52:24-52:31* **Max Roberts**: It's just not clear. *52:30-52:32* **Logan Moore**: It's like, but what does that even mean? *52:31-52:33* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *52:33-52:34* **Logan Moore**: You know, like *52:33-52:36* **Max Roberts**: And it's moving so fast. *52:34-52:36* **Logan Moore**: Because she's shooting different types, she's shooting different types of energies at you. *52:35-52:39* **Max Roberts**: Yep. *52:36-52:37* **Logan Moore**: She has the one big beam, which is like that's phase on two. *52:39-52:43* **Logan Moore**: So I would think, like, why can't you absorb that? *52:43-52:45* **Logan Moore**: But no, it wants you to. *52:45-52:47* **Logan Moore**: absorb these very specific little trinkles of phase on that she's shooting off of herself. *52:47-52:53* **Max Roberts**: And in a very specific way, it's like the Uncharted 4 final boss fight. *52:52-52:57* **Max Roberts**: They're like, what if you just learned how to sword fight at the end of the game? *52:57-53:01* **Max Roberts**: And they talked about introducing that mechanic earlier in that game, but it got cut for time or what have you. *53:02-53:08* **Max Roberts**: And Metroid Prime suffers from the same problem, except it's under that high tense pressure situation. *53:08-53:14* **Max Roberts**: And the punishment is you have to go beat Emperor Ain again. *53:14-53:17* **Max Roberts**: There's actually a save point between the two, but it's broken, and the game actually kind of laughs at you. *53:18-53:23* **Max Roberts**: It's like it's broken. *53:23-53:25* **Max Roberts**: You're gonna have to go find another save spot. *53:25-53:28* **Max Roberts**: There is no other safe spot. *53:28-53:30* **Logan Moore**: It turns off the safe spot that it previously allowed you to use. *53:30-53:34* **Max Roberts**: It is exactly so. *53:30-53:37* **Max Roberts**: I'm mad at the final fight. *53:37-53:40* **Max Roberts**: But I appreciate it, if that makes any sense. *53:41-53:44* **Max Roberts**: It's it's tough. *53:44-53:45* **Max Roberts**: It's a tough fight, and I don't think in an entirely fair way. *53:46-53:51* **Logan Moore**: I have issues with the final fight from a story perspective, which we can get into here in a second. *53:52-53:58* **Logan Moore**: So I'll hold off on that. *53:58-54:00* **Logan Moore**: As far as the bosses go, just generally, though. *54:00-54:03* **Logan Moore**: Highlight of the game, really, for me. *54:04-54:06* **Logan Moore**: Um, was the one the single instances *54:06-54:18* **Max Roberts**: Did you did you did you get your uh *54:10-54:15* **Max Roberts**: Oh, you do you channel your inner Muabdeeb during the worm fight? *54:14-54:19* **Max Roberts**: Shy hallud. *54:19-54:21* **Logan Moore**: Maybe, yeah, yes. *54:19-54:22* **Logan Moore**: It was the these were the one instances of the game where I felt like I could *54:23-54:29* **Logan Moore**: Not totally turn my brain off because you know you're looking for the solution to beat them. *54:27-54:31* **Logan Moore**: But I could finally, for these periods of 15, 20 minutes, shut off my brain from the. *54:31-54:37* **Logan Moore**: Thought processes of, you know, where's this at? *54:38-54:41* **Logan Moore**: Where's this? *54:41-54:41* **Logan Moore**: Oh, do I need to go to the light or dark world? *54:41-54:43* **Logan Moore**: Where, oh, I got to backtrack here. *54:43-54:45* **Logan Moore**: Like, all these things we've talked about that were *54:45-54:50* **Logan Moore**: Greatly annoying throughout the game and like made it almost angsty to play. *54:49-54:54* **Logan Moore**: It made me angsty to play this game. *54:54-54:56* **Logan Moore**: And in the boss fights, it was just as simple as, you know, oh, here's a big thing, shoot it, or. *54:57-55:02* **Logan Moore**: Spider, use your spider ball or your morph ball to drop bombs in this thing. *55:02-55:07* **Max Roberts**: Pew pew pews. *55:02-55:05* **Logan Moore**: It's like, okay, cool. *55:07-55:08* **Logan Moore**: This is fun. *55:08-55:09* **Logan Moore**: I liked all of them. *55:09-55:11* **Logan Moore**: I think Emperor Ng is probably the least. *55:11-55:14* **Logan Moore**: Enjoyable of them all, which kind of sucks as the final boss. *55:16-55:20* **Logan Moore**: I felt like his, maybe not his, but what I guess it is his. *55:20-55:23* **Logan Moore**: He's an emperor, so that means. *55:24-55:26* **Logan Moore**: Some man dark bug monster thing. *55:25-55:29* **Logan Moore**: Um yeah, I just think Emperor Ng was not *55:29-55:35* **Logan Moore**: All that interesting gameplay-wise. *55:33-55:35* **Logan Moore**: Like, there was no, like, you mentioned not liking the one because it was all centered around the morph ball. *55:36-55:41* **Logan Moore**: I don't think Emperor Ng really had anything that utilized many of the abilities that you had gathered over the course of the game. *55:41-55:49* **Logan Moore**: And then the one instance that really did would be *55:49-55:55* **Logan Moore**: When he goes into his little cocoon and it's like, use your spider ball and crawl around on him and drop bombs. *55:53-55:58* **Logan Moore**: It's like that was the one section where I felt like it was, no, trying to get you to use some of the power-ups that you had acquired throughout the game. *55:58-56:05* **Logan Moore**: Otherwise, it was just. *56:05-56:06* **Logan Moore**: Shoot its tentacles! *56:07-56:08* **Logan Moore**: Cool! *56:08-56:08* **Logan Moore**: Now shoot its its glowing orb! *56:08-56:10* **Logan Moore**: Now shoot it with either darker light energy, or with the annihilator, whatever. *56:10-56:18* **Logan Moore**: So, I didn't care for that fight. *56:18-56:20* **Logan Moore**: And then, yeah, same issues that you mentioned with the Dark Samus fight. *56:20-56:24* **Logan Moore**: Obviously, I looked up how to do it, like I said, because I was so stressed up failing. *56:24-56:28* **Logan Moore**: So, I did cheat in that manner. *56:29-56:30* **Logan Moore**: But yeah, the introduction of that mechanic, totally just out of left field. *56:31-56:34* **Logan Moore**: You don't do anything else like that throughout the entire *56:34-56:39* **Logan Moore**: Game, and there's no real visual cue to it either. *56:38-56:41* **Logan Moore**: Like, if they wanted to let you know, like, the only I guess visual cue is *56:41-56:49* **Logan Moore**: Like the energy around Dark Samus grows really large right before those like shoot off her, the tiny little phase-on energies. *56:47-56:56* **Max Roberts**: Sure, but that that's like a cue to get ready for it. *56:53-56:55* **Max Roberts**: It would have actually been better. *56:55-56:57* **Max Roberts**: If they wanted to do it purely through mechanics, right, and not teach you or have you scan it, it would have been better if those phase-on things that you're supposed to absorb. *56:58-57:06* **Max Roberts**: Popped off of Dark Samus and stayed still in the air for a little bit as maybe her power wound up. *57:06-57:12* **Max Roberts**: Looking like everything else you suck up with your cannon, health. *57:13-57:17* **Max Roberts**: Ammo restores. *57:17-57:18* **Max Roberts**: So, like these things that are there, and that would indicate to you in some manner, at least visually, that they look similar to other pickups you get, that then you can absorb. *57:18-57:27* **Max Roberts**: And if you can absorb enough and fire before the *57:27-57:32* **Max Roberts**: Her power grows to a certain level, then you could fire away and all that stuff. *57:31-57:36* **Max Roberts**: That would have been a cool way to do it. *57:36-57:38* **Logan Moore**: How did you absorb them, by the way? *57:38-57:40* **Logan Moore**: Because obviously I played with twin sticks, so I could just look upward. *57:40-57:44* **Logan Moore**: And aim like exactly where they're at. *57:44-57:46* **Logan Moore**: I know you can't do that perfectly in the GameCube version. *57:46-57:52* **Max Roberts**: They just they just came in, as far as I remember. *57:49-57:52* **Max Roberts**: I didn't have to like, I didn't have to stand there, hold R and L, and point and aim, and pick them up, and then shoot. *57:52-57:58* **Logan Moore**: Okay. *57:52-57:53* **Logan Moore**: You didn't have to like line it up perfectly. *57:57-57:59* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *57:58-57:59* **Logan Moore**: Okay, that makes sense. *57:59-58:01* **Max Roberts**: You could just stay locked on to Dark Salmon. *58:00-58:03* **Max Roberts**: And suck things up. *58:03-58:04* **Logan Moore**: Okay. *58:04-58:04* **Max Roberts**: So, yeah, it's it's a it's a good end, but just they just kind of trip again. *58:04-58:13* **Max Roberts**: It's similar to *58:14-58:17* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *58:14-58:15* **Max Roberts**: Hide the thing that just make it invisible. *58:16-58:18* **Max Roberts**: It's like you have a new mechanic in the most stressful situation of the entire game. *58:18-58:24* **Logan Moore**: Yes. *58:24-58:25* **Logan Moore**: I'm I mean, this is a discussion we can have. *58:26-58:29* **Logan Moore**: More probably once we get to the end of Prime 3, but so many of these things I feel like we're bringing up throughout the course of this episode, I feel like are things that other people have probably brought up over the past, you know, 20 years, like you said. *58:29-58:41* **Logan Moore**: And it makes me that much more interested to see what they do with Prime 4. *58:41-58:46* **Logan Moore**: Obviously, they made another game after this with Prime 3, and I kind of know how they've responded to some of the complaints we have here. *58:47-58:52* **Logan Moore**: That game is just way more *58:52-58:55* **Logan Moore**: Segmented by comparison. *58:54-58:56* **Logan Moore**: But I wonder what they're going to do with Prime 4. *58:56-58:58* **Logan Moore**: Like, are they going to try to go back to the roots of the series, kind of with the original Prime? *58:59-59:04* **Logan Moore**: Are they going to try to do something *59:05-59:08* **Logan Moore**: More in this vein. *59:07-59:08* **Logan Moore**: I would guess probably not because they want that game to be a little bit more accessible for newcomers to some degree, but maybe I'm wrong. *59:09-59:18* **Max Roberts**: I feel like again to *59:18-59:24* **Max Roberts**: Down the hypothetical path. *59:22-59:24* **Max Roberts**: If this game was made today, I think they would have done it, constructed it all in a manner. *59:24-59:31* **Max Roberts**: Where the three areas, Agonways, Bog, and Sanctuary, you can go do them in any order. *59:32-59:39* **Max Roberts**: And there will be some roadblocks, and you can get some power-ups here and there, but. *59:39-59:43* **Max Roberts**: You can approach each one, and then they're self-contained in that way. *59:43-59:46* **Max Roberts**: Like you were talking about, hoping. *59:47-59:48* **Max Roberts**: I feel like if it was designed today in a post-Elden Ring, Breath of the Wild type world. *59:48-59:54* **Max Roberts**: they'd be all open in some manner, way, shape or form, and you'd you'd be able to bounce between them in a more natural backtracky way instead of a forced one. *59:55-01:00:04* **Logan Moore**: The bug man would teach you all the languages at the same time or whatever. *01:00:02-01:00:08* **Max Roberts**: The language b the lang not even that, I feel like the lang that could have been a more a lore side quest, and you find these things *01:00:06-01:00:19* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *01:00:13-01:00:14* **Logan Moore**: Which they kind of do use it for in that manner too, because they hide those things around. *01:00:16-01:00:21* **Max Roberts**: But also they use it as like a security access key of like you can't go here until you we give you the language key. *01:00:21-01:00:28* **Max Roberts**: I think it would have been a more fun *01:00:28-01:00:33* **Max Roberts**: Thing of, like, well, I want to learn more about the lore behind this war and these people. *01:00:31-01:00:36* **Max Roberts**: So, like, I will seek out these upgrades so that I can decipher more of the lore. *01:00:36-01:00:41* **Max Roberts**: So, like, you could scan something, but it'd be uninterpretable. *01:00:41-01:00:45* **Max Roberts**: And then you could then, once you get the upgrade, go back and read them and have a deeper understanding of the lore. *01:00:45-01:00:52* **Max Roberts**: I think that would have been a more interesting that would have been a more interesting thing to do in a more open design. *01:00:52-01:00:59* **Max Roberts**: And there I could see them doing a more open design here with Metroid Prime 4 Beyond. *01:00:59-01:01:07* **Max Roberts**: But we shall see. *01:01:07-01:01:09* **Logan Moore**: Alright, let's talk story. *01:01:09-01:01:11* **Logan Moore**: Um 'cause this is actually a pretty big aspect of this game. *01:01:12-01:01:18* **Logan Moore**: At least far more than you know the previous game. *01:01:18-01:01:21* **Logan Moore**: You wrote down a lot more cutscenes up front, a lot more happening in that opening hour, for sure. *01:01:23-01:01:30* **Logan Moore**: Some flashbacks. *01:01:30-01:01:31* **Max Roberts**: They're cut they're straight up flat up cutscenes. *01:01:30-01:01:33* **Logan Moore**: You see. *01:01:31-01:01:31* **Max Roberts**: I mean characters talk *01:01:33-01:01:41* **Logan Moore**: No, you see the one with Dark Samus there near the start. *01:01:36-01:01:39* **Logan Moore**: You see *01:01:39-01:01:42* **Max Roberts**: Umas. *01:01:40-01:01:41* **Logan Moore**: All of the space marines or whatever they're called dying there at the beginning, and you're coming into *01:01:41-01:01:51* **Logan Moore**: And I think all those moments are cool. *01:01:49-01:01:51* **Logan Moore**: I actually kind of wish the game did more of this over the course of the entire game. *01:01:51-01:01:56* **Logan Moore**: Um *01:01:57-01:02:00* **Logan Moore**: Because I like these moments up front, and then it just kind of falls off after you get to the *01:01:58-01:02:07* **Logan Moore**: Main bug boy up there who's like, Hey, go find these lights. *01:02:06-01:02:09* **Logan Moore**: And you'll come back and you'll talk to him, or you'll talk to other bug people that are spread out through all the three different areas. *01:02:09-01:02:17* **Logan Moore**: But that's about it. *01:02:17-01:02:18* **Logan Moore**: There's no real cutscenes otherwise except for, you know, little clips that play before boss fights or whatever. *01:02:18-01:02:26* **Logan Moore**: So, I feel like they should have leaned into this a little bit more than they do. *01:02:27-01:02:32* **Logan Moore**: And then I'll talk a little bit more about some other stuff here in a second. *01:02:33-01:02:36* **Logan Moore**: But, like, what do you think? *01:02:36-01:02:38* **Max Roberts**: I think the cuts at I *01:02:38-01:02:45* **Max Roberts**: Do cutscenes and Metroid storytelling go together? *01:02:44-01:02:49* **Max Roberts**: Is kind of the question I struggle with here. *01:02:50-01:02:52* **Max Roberts**: Because Metroid Prime One does all of its storytelling *01:02:52-01:02:58* **Max Roberts**: Pretty much through the environment. *01:02:56-01:02:57* **Max Roberts**: There's the intro cutscene and a couple of like boss intro cutscenes and things like that. *01:02:57-01:03:01* **Max Roberts**: But the entire narrative is unfolded to you through the environment and through log scanning, which is an optional gameplay mechanic. *01:03:01-01:03:09* **Max Roberts**: And in video games, there's always this push and pull between environmental storytelling and like the cutscene thing. *01:03:10-01:03:19* **Max Roberts**: People will, you know, you look at The Last of Us and it's like, well, it's or Uncharted. *01:03:20-01:03:24* **Max Roberts**: It's just a movie. *01:03:24-01:03:25* **Max Roberts**: You know, what are you doing in between there? *01:03:25-01:03:27* **Max Roberts**: And then you could have a game more like *01:03:28-01:03:33* **Max Roberts**: Elden Ring or Dark Souls, where it's like all environmental storytelling, right? *01:03:32-01:03:36* **Max Roberts**: There's not like as far as you correct me if I'm wrong, there's not some like big cut scene with a a troll or whatever. *01:03:36-01:03:42* **Max Roberts**: Or Steen and Smo don't like come out and give you a little narrative. *01:03:42-01:03:46* **Max Roberts**: before they fight you, they kind of just plop down. *01:03:46-01:03:49* **Max Roberts**: So to swing so heavily into a cutscene story narrative, kind of more in your face *01:03:50-01:04:00* **Max Roberts**: It's a little off-putting. *01:04:02-01:04:03* **Max Roberts**: It's cool. *01:04:03-01:04:04* **Max Roberts**: It's flashy, but I don't know what it adds. *01:04:04-01:04:06* **Max Roberts**: And we know. *01:04:07-01:04:08* **Max Roberts**: What a very heavy, cutscene, narrative-focused metric game looks like. *01:04:09-01:04:14* **Max Roberts**: It's called Other M. *01:04:14-01:04:16* **Max Roberts**: And that has not been received well, right? *01:04:16-01:04:19* **Max Roberts**: And there's just story problems with that game. *01:04:19-01:04:22* **Max Roberts**: Just like structurally, what they were doing with it. *01:04:22-01:04:24* **Max Roberts**: I actually like Other M from a gameplay perspective. *01:04:24-01:04:28* **Max Roberts**: It has been a long time since I've played that, so don't hold me to it. *01:04:28-01:04:31* **Max Roberts**: But *01:04:31-01:04:35* **Max Roberts**: I I didn't like love all of them, but I do like the mood some of them set. *01:04:33-01:04:38* **Max Roberts**: I think the environmental storytelling bits. *01:04:38-01:04:41* **Max Roberts**: We're stronger. *01:04:41-01:04:42* **Max Roberts**: There's this part early on where you're like um you're a Morph Paul going through a space pirate base, like 'cause of course space pirates are here, and you see them run into a dark portal. *01:04:42-01:04:55* **Max Roberts**: And then later you will go through that dark portal and see what happened to them. *01:04:56-01:05:00* **Max Roberts**: I think that's really cool, natural storytelling through gameplay. *01:05:00-01:05:04* **Max Roberts**: There's this whole really rich lore in the game, right? *01:05:05-01:05:08* **Max Roberts**: All these log skins, these scattered bodies of the *01:05:08-01:05:15* **Max Roberts**: The bug people is just kind of what I called them. *01:05:13-01:05:16* **Max Roberts**: And they're like their righteous religious war and seeking of things out in *01:05:16-01:05:23* **Max Roberts**: Space to find a home, these alone people. *01:05:21-01:05:23* **Max Roberts**: You've got Dark Samus, who's completely mute, stealing Phazon, still not entirely sure why that is. *01:05:24-01:05:29* **Max Roberts**: That stuff's all really cool and sets the mood. *01:05:30-01:05:34* **Max Roberts**: But I feel like the cutscenes I don't know, it doesn't feel as woven in as good as it could be. *01:05:35-01:05:41* **Max Roberts**: I don't know. *01:05:41-01:05:42* **Max Roberts**: I I prefer Metroid games to tell their stories through environment, I think, set the mood and keep me in the game. *01:05:42-01:05:48* **Max Roberts**: There are a lot of space pirates or Federation Force references, and the beginning of the game is scary. *01:05:49-01:05:55* **Max Roberts**: I was surprised at all of the corpses early on, like just hanging. *01:05:56-01:06:00* **Max Roberts**: it really sets a dark and spooky mood. *01:06:00-01:06:03* **Max Roberts**: So they and that's also environmental storytelling. *01:06:04-01:06:06* **Max Roberts**: But a lot of little fetty troops. *01:06:06-01:06:09* **Max Roberts**: And I just kept thinking about my little *01:06:09-01:06:13* **Max Roberts**: My little Space Marine was like, He's up there hoping for Samus' help. *01:06:11-01:06:17* **Logan Moore**: I did too. *01:06:17-01:06:17* **Logan Moore**: I I like the order we played these games in because it made the opening of the game where they're all dying like that much more intense. *01:06:18-01:06:24* **Logan Moore**: Like, oh my gosh, my little Federation Force boy. *01:06:24-01:06:28* **Max Roberts**: But little breed. *01:06:26-01:06:28* **Logan Moore**: So that was very funny to me as well. *01:06:30-01:06:32* **Logan Moore**: I think my big issue is that *01:06:33-01:06:40* **Logan Moore**: Like you're talking about the cutscenes and stuff. *01:06:39-01:06:40* **Logan Moore**: They, even though there is cutscenes, there is not, you know, talking really. *01:06:41-01:06:47* **Logan Moore**: There is lore dumps from and explanations and overall, you know, like thrust of like what you're supposed to be doing from the bug people, but that's it. *01:06:47-01:06:56* **Logan Moore**: Like the cutscenes themselves, there is no talking. *01:06:56-01:07:00* **Logan Moore**: And I'm not saying I need Samus to give a five-minute monologue, but *01:07:00-01:07:13* **Max Roberts**: It's the classic it's that classic like even Zelda debate, right? *01:07:05-01:07:09* **Max Roberts**: Oh, we're playing Skyward Sword and there's still no voice acting. *01:07:09-01:07:13* **Logan Moore**: Well, I think my issue is that, like, some things have fallen through the cracks for me here when it comes to understanding the story. *01:07:14-01:07:22* **Logan Moore**: For instance, *01:07:23-01:07:26* **Logan Moore**: I did not realize until about two hours ago when I beat this game and was looking some stuff up about it. *01:07:25-01:07:30* **Logan Moore**: I saw people be like, wow, it's so cool that Dark Samus is the reincarnation of Metroid Prime. *01:07:31-01:07:36* **Logan Moore**: And I was like, excuse me, what? *01:07:36-01:07:38* **Max Roberts**: What? *01:07:38-01:07:38* **Logan Moore**: What are you talking about? *01:07:38-01:07:40* **Max Roberts**: Wait, you're informing me. *01:07:39-01:07:41* **Logan Moore**: Do you not know? *01:07:40-01:07:41* **Max Roberts**: I this is what I wrote down. *01:07:41-01:07:43* **Max Roberts**: I mean, that makes sense, I guess. *01:07:43-01:07:45* **Logan Moore**: You do do you not know this either? *01:07:44-01:07:46* **Max Roberts**: No, I this is what I wrote down. *01:07:45-01:07:47* **Max Roberts**: I said, I like the idea that Samus is hunting Dark Samus because of stolen identity. *01:07:48-01:07:52* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *01:07:48-01:07:48* **Max Roberts**: That's what I was like. *01:07:53-01:07:54* **Logan Moore**: So here's the real a thousand percent real truth of Dark Samus, which I feel like totally falls through the cracks and is like a huge question of like *01:07:54-01:08:06* **Max Roberts**: Is it explained in this game, though? *01:08:02-01:08:06* **Logan Moore**: And if you get what if you get the 100% completion of Metroid Prime 1 at the end credits, there will be a bubbling pool. *01:08:05-01:08:15* **Max Roberts**: Um sure. *01:08:09-01:08:19* **Logan Moore**: A phase on liquid where you killed the Metroid Prime, and out of that burst's hand that resembles Samus' hand. *01:08:15-01:08:23* **Logan Moore**: And then in this game, you see Dark Samus. *01:08:23-01:08:26* **Max Roberts**: Okay. *01:08:23-01:08:23* **Logan Moore**: So the remnants of Metroid Prime have created a new form that mimics Samus because she killed it. *01:08:26-01:08:32* **Max Roberts**: This explains the push for phase on. *01:08:31-01:08:33* **Max Roberts**: Okay. *01:08:34-01:08:34* **Logan Moore**: Yes, but they don't ex but none of this makes any sense. *01:08:34-01:08:38* **Max Roberts**: My problem. *01:08:35-01:08:36* **Logan Moore**: Like, that's what I'm saying. *01:08:38-01:08:39* **Logan Moore**: You have to 100% complete the previous game, and then this is the main *01:08:39-01:08:46* **Logan Moore**: Like, we didn't do that. *01:08:45-01:08:46* **Logan Moore**: You didn't know that until Mound. *01:08:46-01:08:48* **Logan Moore**: Dark Samus has been in all sorts of media. *01:08:48-01:08:49* **Logan Moore**: I mean, we mentioned Smash at the top, but like *01:08:50-01:08:54* **Logan Moore**: This stuff is like never really explained in any sort of way, and I don't need again, I don't need tons of talking *01:08:52-01:09:04* **Max Roberts**: I thought I would have just thought it would have been explained in three. *01:08:59-01:09:03* **Logan Moore**: I don't know. *01:09:05-01:09:05* **Logan Moore**: But this is the thing with Dark Samus' final form here at the end of the game when it's like all skeleton looking. *01:09:06-01:09:11* **Logan Moore**: Like that resembles. *01:09:11-01:09:12* **Logan Moore**: The Metroid Prime Pro in the previous game, and that's supposed to be the light bulb moment of, like, oh, this is it. *01:09:12-01:09:18* **Logan Moore**: And it didn't really hit me until after I *01:09:18-01:09:23* **Logan Moore**: Beat the game and saw people talking about this. *01:09:21-01:09:23* **Logan Moore**: Like, wow, this game ends on such a great narrative note of Samus coming across to archrival, the Metroid Prime, which is *01:09:23-01:09:33* **Logan Moore**: Taking the form of Dark Samus now, and Dark Samus is still hunting her, and blah blah blah blah. *01:09:31-01:09:35* **Logan Moore**: And I'm like, I did not know any of this. *01:09:35-01:09:37* **Logan Moore**: What are we talking about here? *01:09:37-01:09:38* **Logan Moore**: Like, it blew my mind reading this too. *01:09:39-01:09:41* **Logan Moore**: And then I poured myself into some wikis while I was eating lunch today and was reading up on this stuff. *01:09:41-01:09:46* **Logan Moore**: And that's what I'm saying. *01:09:47-01:09:48* **Logan Moore**: It just all falls through the cracks. *01:09:48-01:09:50* **Logan Moore**: And I think it's actually kind of cool the storytelling they're doing, but you wouldn't know these things. *01:09:50-01:09:56* **Logan Moore**: Unless you're just a hardcore fan and you've 100% of all the games and you're picking up on everything that's going. *01:09:56-01:10:02* **Logan Moore**: Otherwise, you're just like, oh, hey, this is the second Metroid game, and there's now a. *01:10:03-01:10:07* **Logan Moore**: A dark Samus in the game. *01:10:08-01:10:09* **Logan Moore**: Sure, why not? *01:10:09-01:10:10* **Logan Moore**: Like *01:10:10-01:10:21* **Max Roberts**: So I wrote this down. *01:10:12-01:10:13* **Max Roberts**: I just kind of thought it was like an of the time decision. *01:10:14-01:10:18* **Max Roberts**: Because if you remember the games that were coming out around this time, the big popular ones. *01:10:18-01:10:23* **Max Roberts**: Pokemon X D Gale of Darkness, Dark Lugia. *01:10:23-01:10:27* **Max Roberts**: Or Jack Two and Jack Three, Dark Jack, Edgy. *01:10:27-01:10:31* **Logan Moore**: I mean there there's dark links in some of the Zelda games and stuff like that too. *01:10:31-01:10:35* **Max Roberts**: Like, it was just. *01:10:31-01:10:32* **Max Roberts**: Darklink in in 64 and it's in I think in Twilight or The Skeleton anyway *01:10:34-01:10:43* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *01:10:36-01:10:37* **Max Roberts**: I just kinda thought we're like, we'll just put a mysterious silent villain in here. *01:10:41-01:10:47* **Max Roberts**: I kinda thought maybe it was a space pirate thing gone wrong and would be further explained in future games. *01:10:47-01:10:53* **Max Roberts**: That's interesting and I like that. *01:10:53-01:10:55* **Max Roberts**: But I if you're gonna pull something that was a secret from the last game and make it part of the main *01:10:55-01:11:03* **Max Roberts**: Narrative thrust of this game, you have to give an in-game reason. *01:11:02-01:11:04* **Max Roberts**: I'm actually curious now, maybe does the game man well, the game manual, maybe the game manual says something about it. *01:11:04-01:11:11* **Max Roberts**: I don't know. *01:11:11-01:11:12* **Max Roberts**: They're just *01:11:12-01:11:15* **Max Roberts**: There has to be some sort of context for the thing, because without it. *01:11:13-01:11:16* **Logan Moore**: Well, that I'm trying to think of other games of the era that had secret endings. *01:11:15-01:11:20* **Logan Moore**: Like, my brain jumps to Kingdom Hearts, you know. *01:11:20-01:11:23* **Logan Moore**: You got to the end of Kingdom Hearts and it would tee up like what they were going to do next in some of the other games. *01:11:23-01:11:29* **Max Roberts**: Good old I mean, is there a more legend is there a more iconic secret ending than Kingdom Hearts 2 with the Keyblade War? *01:11:27-01:11:35* **Logan Moore**: No, there's not. *01:11:33-01:11:35* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, that's the one. *01:11:35-01:11:37* **Logan Moore**: But you don't need to see that to then jump into birth by sleep and know like *01:11:37-01:11:47* **Max Roberts**: Not only do you not need to see that, Birth by Sleep opens with it. *01:11:40-01:11:45* **Max Roberts**: Like, it's part of the intro cutscene, is seeing that graveyard and stuff. *01:11:45-01:11:49* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. *01:11:48-01:11:51* **Max Roberts**: Like, it's just. *01:11:49-01:11:50* **Logan Moore**: So it's so you're so you're if you just jump into this game and you haven't 100% into Metroid Prime, like which, let's be honest. *01:11:51-01:12:00* **Logan Moore**: 95% of players probably didn't 100% that game. *01:12:01-01:12:05* **Logan Moore**: I mean, back in the day or now. *01:12:06-01:12:07* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *01:12:06-01:12:06* **Logan Moore**: Like. *01:12:08-01:12:08* **Max Roberts**: I I feel like the number would probably be higher today. *01:12:08-01:12:11* **Logan Moore**: But even then, there's not really context for it. *01:12:12-01:12:16* **Logan Moore**: Like you just see a hand burst out of a puddle, and then this game starts, and then there's a Dark Samus on Planet Aether. *01:12:16-01:12:23* **Logan Moore**: It's like, okay. *01:12:23-01:12:24* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, it would. *01:12:23-01:12:24* **Max Roberts**: I think if we had played these, if A, we had both 100% in Metroid Perm 1 and played it closer together. *01:12:25-01:12:32* **Max Roberts**: Also, I think today we play more games and there are more things coming out in our but back in 2002 and 2004, was the GameCube really like, woo! *01:12:34-01:12:44* **Logan Moore**: What I'm really saying they should should have done, though, with this is they probably should have had Dark Samus kill the bug guy you're talking to. *01:12:44-01:12:54* **Logan Moore**: And then halfway through the game, you take over as Dark Samus, and time goes backwards, and you play as Dark Samus for the second half of the game, and you sympathize with her. *01:12:54-01:13:04* **Logan Moore**: And you understand her plight. *01:13:07-01:13:09* **Max Roberts**: I was wondering where you were going with this until you said halfway. *01:13:08-01:13:10* **Max Roberts**: I was like, ah, the classic narrative. *01:13:10-01:13:13* **Max Roberts**: The classic. *01:13:13-01:13:14* **Logan Moore**: And then you switch back to Samus at the end and you have to kill Dark Samus, but you feel guilt as you do. *01:13:14-01:13:22* **Max Roberts**: I let that would be a better game. *01:13:22-01:13:24* **Max Roberts**: That would be pretty dope. *01:13:24-01:13:25* **Max Roberts**: What and then there's a secret DLC where you play as Ridley and get his side of the story. *01:13:25-01:13:30* **Logan Moore**: Yes. *01:13:30-01:13:31* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, I think this story I think it was bold of them to try it. *01:13:33-01:13:37* **Max Roberts**: And what I remember the most about Prime 3 and kind of going into it was *01:13:37-01:13:44* **Max Roberts**: A lot of inspiration from Halo, and they like really wanted to up the cinematic game even more. *01:13:43-01:13:47* **Max Roberts**: So I'm excited to dive into three here after Hunters. *01:13:47-01:13:50* **Max Roberts**: And see how much further they take the cinematic flair here. *01:13:51-01:13:55* **Max Roberts**: And then I'm curious how that ultimately will end up in Prime 4 as well, especially given this is 15 or whatever years later. *01:13:55-01:14:04* **Max Roberts**: It's going to be interesting, is all I'm going to say. *01:14:04-01:14:07* **Logan Moore**: Well, the thing that I feel as though that I have to do now *01:14:07-01:14:13* **Logan Moore**: Is make sure I go back and watch all of the secret endings for Prime 2 and make sure there's nothing because we know Dark Samus is in *01:14:12-01:14:24* **Max Roberts**: Well, that I mean *01:14:18-01:14:28* **Logan Moore**: Prime 3, she's the main bad guy again. *01:14:22-01:14:24* **Logan Moore**: But, like, for all intents and purposes, she blows up and turns the phase on dust or whatever at the end of this game. *01:14:24-01:14:31* **Max Roberts**: We just talked about this in our last episode. *01:14:31-01:14:34* **Logan Moore**: So. *01:14:31-01:14:32* **Max Roberts**: If you do not do the optional mission of bringing the Metroid egg back with you in Federation Force, you don't get the secret ending with Silic. *01:14:34-01:14:40* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *01:14:39-01:14:40* **Max Roberts**: Which is it sets up Prime for War? *01:14:41-01:14:44* **Logan Moore**: And that sets up and that tees up Metro Friday forward. *01:14:41-01:14:44* **Max Roberts**: Which, I mean, talk if you think not 100% of Metro Prime 1 for Metro Prime 2 is like a big thing. *01:14:45-01:14:51* **Max Roberts**: Imagine not doing the secret optional mission quest in. *01:14:51-01:14:55* **Max Roberts**: Federation Force to set up Metroid Prime 4 and Silex is introduced in your other handheld game like *01:14:55-01:15:08* **Logan Moore**: Oh, my gosh. *01:15:05-01:15:06* **Max Roberts**: This is going to be great deep lore. *01:15:06-01:15:12* **Logan Moore**: So here it is. *01:15:06-01:15:07* **Logan Moore**: I just pulled it up right now. *01:15:08-01:15:09* **Logan Moore**: Once again, Retroid Prime 2, if you get 100% completion. *01:15:09-01:15:15* **Logan Moore**: The game, there's an 11-second cutscene at the end of the game after the credits, where you see the phase on dust that Dark Samus exploded into floating out in space. *01:15:15-01:15:26* **Logan Moore**: I don't know how it got into space, but it's just floating there in space, and then it reassembles into the form of Dark Samus, and then it cuts. *01:15:26-01:15:34* **Max Roberts**: That's cool, though. *01:15:35-01:15:36* **Logan Moore**: It is. *01:15:37-01:15:38* **Logan Moore**: I mean, that's a that's a cool ending, but like I don't know. *01:15:38-01:15:43* **Max Roberts**: That's cool. *01:15:38-01:15:39* **Max Roberts**: But to be fair, I expect Dark Samus in the third game at this point. *01:15:42-01:15:46* **Max Roberts**: Like, I don't actually think the threat is gone by the end of Retroid Prime 2. *01:15:46-01:15:50* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, I I I I guess. *01:15:50-01:15:53* **Max Roberts**: Maybe that's more hindsight, just knowing that Dark Samus is prob prevalent. *01:15:53-01:15:57* **Logan Moore**: Um *01:15:53-01:15:58* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, I feel like that's only known because we maybe just know that. *01:15:57-01:16:01* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *01:15:58-01:15:58* **Logan Moore**: So I don't know. *01:16:01-01:16:03* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, it's *01:16:03-01:16:13* **Logan Moore**: Maybe everybody back in the day thought Metroid Prime 3 and they didn't see the secret anymore. *01:16:04-01:16:08* **Logan Moore**: They just thought Prime 3 was going to be. *01:16:08-01:16:10* **Logan Moore**: All Ridley again. *01:16:09-01:16:10* **Logan Moore**: A Ridley game. *01:16:11-01:16:12* **Logan Moore**: Bring back the Space Pirates. *01:16:12-01:16:14* **Max Roberts**: I mean, the space pirates never truly go away. *01:16:14-01:16:17* **Logan Moore**: They don't. *01:16:17-01:16:18* **Logan Moore**: I feel like that's it for at least story stuff. *01:16:19-01:16:22* **Logan Moore**: Again, I'm curious how they approach story with Prime 4. *01:16:22-01:16:26* **Logan Moore**: I mean, we'll have a larger conversation once we get to the end of Prime 3. *01:16:26-01:16:30* **Logan Moore**: Um still don't know the launch date for Prime 4, which is a little weird. *01:16:30-01:16:36* **Logan Moore**: At least the time of recording this, we don't. *01:16:36-01:16:38* **Max Roberts**: I think it's it's tied it's tied to Super Switch, come on. *01:16:36-01:16:41* **Logan Moore**: I hope it's tied to the launch of that. *01:16:42-01:16:44* **Logan Moore**: I feel like we'll learn the date at the game wards, probably. *01:16:45-01:16:48* **Logan Moore**: That feels like when they'll announce it. *01:16:48-01:16:50* **Max Roberts**: I think we'll *01:16:51-01:16:54* **Max Roberts**: Never bet on Nintendo doing the same thing twice, but I feel like we'll get like a concept video again and some sort of event at some point, like a dedicated Nintendo event that will be talking about it. *01:16:53-01:17:05* **Logan Moore**: Oh, you're just talking about Super Switch stuff. *01:17:06-01:17:09* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *01:17:09-01:17:09* **Max Roberts**: Oh, the date for Prime at the Game Awards? *01:17:10-01:17:13* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, I'm just talking prime date. *01:17:11-01:17:13* **Logan Moore**: I just feel like they'll show a trailer for it and announce it there. *01:17:13-01:17:17* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. *01:17:14-01:17:15* **Max Roberts**: That if if Nintendo shows anything, I think that would be the thing they show there. *01:17:15-01:17:19* **Logan Moore**: Because that is the last Switch game, for all intents and purposes, from Nintendo. *01:17:19-01:17:24* **Logan Moore**: Like, you got the brothership coming up. *01:17:24-01:17:27* **Max Roberts**: Currently, Brothership's out and Donkey Kong. *01:17:25-01:17:29* **Logan Moore**: It's actually not. *01:17:28-01:17:29* **Logan Moore**: It's actually just leaked everywhere. *01:17:29-01:17:32* **Max Roberts**: No, I thought it was out. *01:17:32-01:17:33* **Logan Moore**: No, it's out in November. *01:17:33-01:17:35* **Max Roberts**: Oh Russo, oh bad. *01:17:35-01:17:39* **Logan Moore**: That game leaked like three or four weeks early and people have already dumped it onto the internet. *01:17:38-01:17:42* **Logan Moore**: So that's probably why you think it's out. *01:17:43-01:17:45* **Max Roberts**: Okay. *01:17:45-01:17:46* **Logan Moore**: Because I've seen a lot of people talking about it. *01:17:45-01:17:48* **Max Roberts**: Uh okay. *01:17:48-01:17:49* **Max Roberts**: Um well *01:17:49-01:17:54* **Logan Moore**: Anyway, that's news of the time. *01:17:52-01:17:54* **Max Roberts**: That's not good. *01:17:54-01:17:55* **Max Roberts**: It's Donkey Kon. *01:17:55-01:17:56* **Max Roberts**: Donkey Kon has the furthest known date of January. *01:17:56-01:17:59* **Max Roberts**: Donkey Kong Country Returns, Ultimate Edition, or whatever. *01:17:59-01:18:03* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *01:18:00-01:18:01* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, I forgot about that new funky mode. *01:18:01-01:18:06* **Max Roberts**: And then it'll be prime four. *01:18:04-01:18:06* **Max Roberts**: No funky mode though. *01:18:07-01:18:08* **Logan Moore**: New funky mod. *01:18:08-01:18:10* **Logan Moore**: Alright, two other things to talk about, and we're gonna go. *01:18:11-01:18:13* **Logan Moore**: Music and sound design, or just general aesthetic, which I feel like we talked about. *01:18:14-01:18:17* **Logan Moore**: A lot of browns, but the music specifically. *01:18:17-01:18:19* **Max Roberts**: Samus, Samus, Samus. *01:18:20-01:18:22* **Max Roberts**: Did you hear it? *01:18:22-01:18:22* **Max Roberts**: Did you hear? *01:18:23-01:18:23* **Logan Moore**: They do they do do the chain yeah, you d they do the chaining. *01:18:23-01:18:27* **Max Roberts**: Because I told you, I'm like, they literally just chant Samus in the main theme. *01:18:23-01:18:27* **Max Roberts**: It's awesome. *01:18:28-01:18:30* **Logan Moore**: Which is very funny *01:18:28-01:18:32* **Logan Moore**: I think the soundtrack for this is good. *01:18:30-01:18:32* **Logan Moore**: Again, Prime One's better. *01:18:32-01:18:36* **Max Roberts**: I think Prime One has more bangers, but dude. *01:18:35-01:18:39* **Logan Moore**: Yeah. *01:18:38-01:18:39* **Max Roberts**: The bog. *01:18:39-01:18:40* **Logan Moore**: Still great. *01:18:40-01:18:41* **Max Roberts**: I was waiting for your message. *01:18:41-01:18:42* **Logan Moore**: The bog is. *01:18:41-01:18:42* **Max Roberts**: I was waiting for your message about the bog for months, and you finally sent it. *01:18:42-01:18:46* **Logan Moore**: Yes. *01:18:42-01:18:43* **Max Roberts**: And I was like, Yes, he knows. *01:18:46-01:18:48* **Max Roberts**: And it's not only the bog is good, but then you get to the basement of the bog, and it's even better, and it's like, oh, *01:18:48-01:19:01* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, I told you this, but I'm very familiar with all of the Metroid soundtracks just because I've listened to, you know, Metroid music compilations or whatever while I'm working. *01:18:56-01:19:07* **Logan Moore**: And I'll put those on in the background. *01:19:08-01:19:09* **Logan Moore**: So I know a lot of the music from Metroid, I just don't know when the needle drops come in on them. *01:19:09-01:19:15* **Logan Moore**: So, like, when I entered the bog for the first time and that song came on, I was like, oh, here it is. *01:19:15-01:19:19* **Logan Moore**: I know where it's from now. *01:19:20-01:19:21* **Logan Moore**: So that's been very enjoyable. *01:19:21-01:19:24* **Max Roberts**: You're like Leonardo DiCaprio. *01:19:22-01:19:24* **Max Roberts**: Like, I know. *01:19:24-01:19:25* **Logan Moore**: Yes. *01:19:25-01:19:25* **Logan Moore**: The pointing meme. *01:19:26-01:19:27* **Logan Moore**: So that's actually been very fun with all of these games. *01:19:27-01:19:30* **Logan Moore**: To just have that level of familiarity with the music, but just not know where it's going to show up. *01:19:30-01:19:36* **Logan Moore**: And so that makes it fun as like a first timer playing through these these games. *01:19:36-01:19:41* **Logan Moore**: Largely blind. *01:19:41-01:19:42* **Logan Moore**: But yeah, great soundtrack. *01:19:42-01:19:44* **Logan Moore**: Fantastic music. *01:19:44-01:19:45* **Logan Moore**: Once again, what is composer's name? *01:19:45-01:19:48* **Logan Moore**: Kenji Yamamoto. *01:19:48-01:19:50* **Logan Moore**: Fantastic work on the soundtrack again. *01:19:50-01:19:53* **Logan Moore**: Still, like most other things with this game, though, Prime One is better, in my opinion. *01:19:53-01:19:58* **Max Roberts**: Yeah, I think more consistent. *01:19:58-01:20:00* **Max Roberts**: Uh but this game had some songs that stuck out uh and I'm happy about it. *01:20:00-01:20:03* **Max Roberts**: I like the final bossing theme. *01:20:04-01:20:06* **Max Roberts**: As well. *01:20:06-01:20:06* **Max Roberts**: That one had some pretty good epic qualities. *01:20:06-01:20:08* **Max Roberts**: So it's fun. *01:20:09-01:20:10* **Max Roberts**: I'm excited to see where it goes in corruption. *01:20:10-01:20:14* **Logan Moore**: In Hunters, Hunters *01:20:15-01:20:25* **Max Roberts**: Um well, it's been a long time, but I you know uh I did a hundred percent hunters as a wee lad. *01:20:16-01:20:24* **Max Roberts**: So when I I mean, we'll talk about it on that show. *01:20:24-01:20:28* **Logan Moore**: You saw the secret ending of that one. *01:20:26-01:20:28* **Max Roberts**: I did, and I don't remember it, but I did. *01:20:28-01:20:31* **Max Roberts**: And I do know it was because it was that f when you signed up for Nintendo Power, you could get a free strategy guide, and I chose Prime Hunters, and then I *01:20:32-01:20:42* **Max Roberts**: Use that to 100% the game. *01:20:40-01:20:41* **Max Roberts**: It's it's fun. *01:20:41-01:20:43* **Logan Moore**: Interesting. *01:20:41-01:20:43* **Max Roberts**: So I have a soft spot for hunters for sure. *01:20:43-01:20:47* **Logan Moore**: What's this game's legacy? *01:20:47-01:20:49* **Logan Moore**: If you don't want to go multiplayer? *01:20:50-01:20:53* **Max Roberts**: Multiplayer? *01:20:50-01:20:51* **Max Roberts**: Yeah. *01:20:53-01:20:54* **Logan Moore**: Is that what you're going to talk about? *01:20:53-01:20:55* **Max Roberts**: I just wanted to mention it at least. *01:20:55-01:20:56* **Max Roberts**: We both didn't play it. *01:20:57-01:20:57* **Max Roberts**: Your version obviously didn't have it. *01:20:57-01:20:59* **Max Roberts**: And I played it as a kid. *01:21:00-01:21:01* **Max Roberts**: It it's just from that time. *01:21:01-01:21:02* **Max Roberts**: I just want to make sure it at least gets the nod. *01:21:02-01:21:04* **Max Roberts**: It's that time when every game had a multiplayer mode. *01:21:04-01:21:07* **Logan Moore**: And that was followed up on in Hunters. *01:21:07-01:21:10* **Logan Moore**: Like that game has a big multiplayer component, doesn't it? *01:21:10-01:21:13* **Max Roberts**: Yes, and and that's where we will talk about it more because that is vital to my experience with that game. *01:21:11-01:21:18* **Max Roberts**: I actually kind of want us to maybe try and *01:21:19-01:21:24* **Max Roberts**: play on a fan server just to like get a taste of it. *01:21:22-01:21:26* **Max Roberts**: But that seed is planted here and we'll talk about it later, but it's it's whatever. *01:21:27-01:21:32* **Max Roberts**: The legacy of Metroid Prime 2 Echoes. *01:21:33-01:21:36* **Max Roberts**: Echoes has a vibe. *01:21:37-01:21:39* **Max Roberts**: It's a moody. *01:21:39-01:21:40* **Max Roberts**: Moody game. *01:21:41-01:21:42* **Max Roberts**: But it's too chunked up. *01:21:42-01:21:44* **Max Roberts**: It's not smooth. *01:21:44-01:21:45* **Max Roberts**: It's not this smooth experience. *01:21:45-01:21:46* **Max Roberts**: You keep getting little hitches along the way. *01:21:46-01:21:49* **Max Roberts**: And *01:21:49-01:21:53* **Max Roberts**: Retro tried to do something new with it. *01:21:51-01:21:54* **Max Roberts**: They didn't want to just copy-paste TypeSQL. *01:21:54-01:21:57* **Max Roberts**: They wanted to push and innovate in some way. *01:21:57-01:22:01* **Max Roberts**: And some of that stuff was cool and stuck around, but other things were burdens in the game design. *01:22:02-01:22:08* **Max Roberts**: And some things they didn't shake up enough, like end of game quest. *01:22:08-01:22:12* **Max Roberts**: They actually just like shook it in the wrong direction. *01:22:12-01:22:14* **Max Roberts**: and made it even more of a pace killer. *01:22:14-01:22:18* **Max Roberts**: So it's just this game that's stuck in this space of *01:22:18-01:22:25* **Max Roberts**: Really cool ideas, but frustrating roadblock kind of innovation in design. *01:22:23-01:22:31* **Max Roberts**: And it's just *01:22:31-01:22:35* **Max Roberts**: It's aggressive. *01:22:34-01:22:35* **Max Roberts**: The game beats you down constantly. *01:22:35-01:22:38* **Max Roberts**: And it's not in what I imagine is like the satisfying Dark Souls-y way. *01:22:38-01:22:43* **Max Roberts**: Sometimes it's just like we're making this hard because we're making this hard. *01:22:43-01:22:47* **Max Roberts**: And I think it kind of taints this game's legacy overall. *01:22:47-01:22:52* **Max Roberts**: And I'm very curious to how it will be received when a remastered version is finally put out that has been so long rumored. *01:22:52-01:23:01* **Max Roberts**: But I don't think the the rosy glasses of Metacritic will hold up. *01:23:01-01:23:07* **Logan Moore**: Yeah, for me, I I think this one is a lot and echoes a lot of what echoes a lot of what you've said. *01:23:08-01:23:16* **Max Roberts**: Ho ho ho ho! *01:23:16-01:23:17* **Logan Moore**: Very frustrating. *01:23:18-01:23:19* **Logan Moore**: Again, very, I think, just hardcore is the best way to put this. *01:23:19-01:23:23* **Logan Moore**: This is a Metroidvania fans *01:23:24-01:23:29* **Logan Moore**: Metroidvania game. *01:23:27-01:23:29* **Logan Moore**: Like, if you really want to challenge yourself and you really want to see if you like the big pillars of what this genre has to throw at you. *01:23:29-01:23:37* **Logan Moore**: Play Metroid Prime 2 Echoes because it is all of those things, but done in a way that I think is too much. *01:23:37-01:23:45* **Logan Moore**: I get what they were going for again with a lot of this game. *01:23:46-01:23:50* **Logan Moore**: Like I said, the idea on paper of having a light and dark world that mirrors kind of one another. *01:23:50-01:23:56* **Logan Moore**: Cool idea. *01:23:56-01:23:56* **Logan Moore**: Very cool idea. *01:23:57-01:23:58* **Logan Moore**: It's just the execution on those things, having certain entry and exit points. *01:23:58-01:24:03* **Logan Moore**: I think if you can, you know. *01:24:03-01:24:04* **Logan Moore**: Like if traversing into the light and dark world like hinged on an item or something that you could activate on the spot like something like that would have been really cool But that gets *01:24:04-01:24:16* **Logan Moore**: That opens up all sorts of issues. *01:24:14-01:24:16* **Logan Moore**: I also understand that this game was limited by the tech of the time, so something like that was almost certainly not feasible. *01:24:16-01:24:23* **Logan Moore**: Like, I'm thinking of *01:24:24-01:24:27* **Logan Moore**: Like Alan Wig 2 actually really does that in a great way where you can like on the dime like change the environment and what's around you by like switching your lamp. *01:24:26-01:24:34* **Logan Moore**: I think that's a really cool mechanic and I would have liked to see *01:24:35-01:24:40* **Logan Moore**: I've seen something like that here with the light and dark world stuff. *01:24:38-01:24:42* **Logan Moore**: Instead, yeah, this game is just not, doesn't have the same level of satisfaction. *01:24:43-01:24:47* **Logan Moore**: I think it's. *01:24:48-01:24:49* **Logan Moore**: Its legacy is like hard to talk about because I feel like the first Prime game kind of stands on its own. *01:24:50-01:24:58* **Logan Moore**: And I feel like that game has a legacy of its own because it was the first to really adapt. *01:24:58-01:25:03* **Logan Moore**: The style of these games into 3D. *01:25:03-01:25:05* **Logan Moore**: And then I feel like two and three kind of get thrown together, and everybody just refers to them all as the Prime Trilogy. *01:25:06-01:25:14* **Logan Moore**: And so I don't feel like there's too much discussion about this game in particular in hindsight. *01:25:14-01:25:21* **Logan Moore**: Maybe I am completely wrong about that, but I just see so many people talking to know about, oh, all three Metroid Prime games, those are great. *01:25:23-01:25:30* **Logan Moore**: We need more of those. *01:25:30-01:25:31* **Logan Moore**: But this game specifically never gets really talked about too much. *01:25:31-01:25:36* **Logan Moore**: If anything, I feel like maybe this game's biggest legacy point or the biggest thing to glean from it or take away is that it's the introduction of Dark Samus. *01:25:36-01:25:47* **Logan Moore**: Like. *01:25:47-01:25:47* **Logan Moore**: Which has kind of become a larger character over the years. *01:25:48-01:25:51* **Logan Moore**: Obviously, it's she's been in, or it's been in all sorts of different stuff in these two prime games, but then *01:25:52-01:26:02* **Logan Moore**: Representation in Smash and that sort of stuff. *01:26:00-01:26:02* **Logan Moore**: And I know that's how the larger Nintendo base is familiar with the character. *01:26:02-01:26:07* **Logan Moore**: But Dark Samus stems from this, and so that's probably its biggest legacy point in that regard, and the thing that this game is perhaps the most memorable for. *01:26:08-01:26:18* **Max Roberts**: Well, I think that does it for this episode of Chapter Select. *01:26:19-01:26:23* **Max Roberts**: Thank you all so much for listening to us Bounce Between Light and Dark Positive and Negative Opinions *01:26:23-01:26:32* **Max Roberts**: It was a lot of fun. *01:26:30-01:26:31* **Max Roberts**: If you would like to find Logan's work, you can go check out comicbook. *01:26:31-01:26:35* **Max Roberts**: com. *01:26:35-01:26:36* **Max Roberts**: If you'd like to find my work, you could go over to maxfrequency. *01:26:36-01:26:40* **Max Roberts**: net and check everything out. *01:26:41-01:26:43* **Max Roberts**: Over there. *01:26:43-01:26:44* **Max Roberts**: But thank you all so much for listening. *01:26:45-01:26:47* **Max Roberts**: And until next time, adios. *01:26:47-01:26:49*