# [[MFP24 - “The Power of Radio” with Robert Ashley]] Transcript This transcription was completed on March 4, 2026 with the application MacWhisper on macOS. This was done automatically, without human input during the transcription process. The transcription used the Parakeet v3 model. My hope is that by offering this transcription – however accurate it may be done by a machine learning/AI – will help you, the listener. I’d love to offer full, proper transcription some day, but that is not feasible at this time. Thank you for listening and reading. I hope you enjoy the show and that this document was helpful. Enjoy. --- Hello everybody and welcome to the Max Frequency Podcast. *00:00* I'm your host, Max Roberts, and joining me this time is the editor and host of an internet radio show, A Life Well Wasted, Robert Ashley. *00:02* Welcome to the show. *00:11* Hey, how's it going? *00:12* I'm well, Robert. *00:14* How are you? *00:14* I'm alright. *00:16* Robert, you you pulled off a Christmas miracle last year. *00:18* And you released a new episode of A Life Well Wasted, a podcast that I used to listen to when I worked at Kmart. *00:22* Like your show has been around *00:30* For me, Kmart doesn't exist anymore. *00:32* So you're a lifeful wasted has outlasted Kmart. *00:33* Uh it out lasted a lot of things, really. *00:37* I mean just anything that lasts for more than five years is uh *00:39* you know, you're gonna you're gonna m you're gonna outlast a lot of stuff. *00:45* Uh but yeah, yeah. *00:49* Uh I *00:51* Don't I'm not answering a question right now. *00:53* I'm You're fuck. *00:56* I just it was it's a show that's always stuck with me *00:57* I have vivid memories or associations of the show like the um the big ideas episode where you talk I don't remember the guy's I think it was Jason *01:01* But the the very well endowed man episode. *01:09* I was by the box compactor, like tearing boxes apart *01:12* during that part of the show. *01:17* Like that's stuck in my brain. *01:18* Or and I have quotes that I wrote down in my notes at back then, you know, from like the artists, fans and engineers episode about *01:20* people with impressive talent and writing. *01:27* So like your show has just been in my brain and in my podcast feed ever since I discovered it kind of back in those days. *01:28* And then 2013 episode seven work comes out *01:36* You're getting ready to head off to GDC. *01:40* You're like, I'm getting interviews. *01:42* And then nothing came out until last year. *01:44* And so I wanted to kick it off just by asking why now? *01:48* Why finally put episode eight out? *01:51* Yeah, well, you know, you mentioned that GDC that I went to and I and I was working on, you know, interviews there. *01:55* Um I also got a call from my wife when I was on that trip and she told me she was pregnant. *02:02* And that that was kind of like the thing that really um put me off the rails for a while. *02:06* Um and you know, I was also making music at the time and when I found out she was pregnant, I was in the middle of trying to make *02:12* yet another ridiculously elaborate I Come to Shanghai album that took forever to finish. *02:19* But as far as why why it came out this past year, um *02:25* You know, it was something I had picked out here and there over the years, not very successfully. *02:30* I I kind of lost my nerve. *02:34* Um *02:38* I felt like I didn't know what I was doing anymore. *02:39* I I just I didn't have confidence in myself and the stories that I was trying to do in that episode were really some of the more elaborate stories I'd ever *02:41* tried before, like trying trying to weave together a lot of different interviews and stuff. *02:51* And I don't know. *02:56* Uh but uh what really pulled me out was I I have this friend Grant Stewart. *02:57* Um *03:01* Who I met in Athens, Georgia when I lived there. *03:02* He worked at a um a little art house uh movie theater called Sine *03:05* in town there and I was buying a ticket one day and he goes, Hey, are you Robert Ashley from A Life Well Wasted? *03:10* And I was like, Well yes I am. *03:16* It's the only time that's ever happened to me my whole life. *03:18* I'm not a famous person. *03:21* But we became uh we became uh friends after that and he ended up moving to New York and becoming like a regular worker in the podcasting business. *03:22* He edits and does various *03:33* things for show you know, lots of shows, including running his own fiction podcast called Milky Way Underground. *03:36* And he kind of made it his mission to pull me out of hiding and started like giving me little things to do. *03:42* Like I I helped him with his *03:48* fiction show, Milky Way Underground, he cast me as a character in it. *03:50* It was it was like a tween um like a weird tween mystery show that was uh *03:54* you know, uh funded by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. *04:01* They they had this whole group of shows that were aimed at at like twelve to sixteen year olds vaguely. *04:05* It was like an *04:11* sort of a attempt to get younger kids into podcasting and um yeah I don't know. *04:12* I I I did some work with it including um I I did a trailer that was like a m sort of *04:19* in the vein of something that I would do on A Life Well Wasted where I I got some some music from the show um that had already been written and I and I sort of like *04:25* uh edited around the music to create a trailer and and it was the first thing I'd done in a while where I was like, Oh yeah, I forgot that I used to do this kind of thing. *04:38* Uh and I don't know. *04:47* He just kinda worked on me until I got my confidence up and *04:48* Once I once I sort of finished um one of the stories, I I just had some momentum going and yeah, I I I set a deadline, which deadlines are really *04:52* important to me, although very hard for me to meet if I set them myself. *05:03* And that was how I eventually got this thing out so many years later. *05:08* Well, I guess we should thank your friend for pulling you back into this space. *05:13* But what *05:20* Did you had you started editing it at I guess over the years there was a file somewhere, right? *05:22* Or did you start from scratch all over it? *05:27* Oh no. *05:29* Yeah, I didn't I didn't start from scratch, man. *05:29* I mean like I I really *05:32* I had a ton of of uh material, especially for the third story in that episode, which was uh about the the kids growing up *05:35* making their own um Sierra online game inspired by drag uh or go ahead inspired by uh King's Quest. *05:45* That's what I call I call it the King's Quest story. *05:53* Because that story is *05:55* Mind-blowing. *05:58* I I re-listened to the whole back catalog before our show here just to kind of refresh myself, including episode eight and *05:59* I still can't believe that story. *06:06* I've listened to it twice now. *06:08* That that's my favorite story I've ever done. *06:10* It really hits all the all the notes that I that I like to hit. *06:12* Like it's *06:16* It's not you know, there's video game stuff going on in it, but it's not about that. *06:17* It's uh it's like a story about a friendship. *06:22* And it's funny and a little bit sad. *06:25* And just like the guys that I was talking to, they were very open with me. *06:28* Um and I I just got good material, which is *06:33* uh which is the best, but I had a lot of it and and I'd never um you know, I had like interviews where it it's three it's three guys and I had interviews where I had *06:37* interviewed them separately and then a couple of them together and then I I talked to other people for the story and it was just very I I I had a hard time imagining it. *06:48* So for a while I was *06:58* I was just cutting this stuff down and I actually remember one time um years ago when I still lived in Athens working on it and I was *07:00* doing like rough edits with a steam controller on my living room television one. *07:08* Because I was just try I was just trying to like make myself work on it any way I could. *07:13* I was really intimidated by it. *07:17* And uh and so I started while my my little guy was napping, I would uh I would do like rough edits on the T V *07:19* But for a for a long time it was just sort of I I had cut it down to various clips and I had arranged them in a way that made some sort of sense. *07:27* I had even, maybe three years ago, um done a couple of like musical things that maybe *07:34* uh that actually ended up in it. *07:41* But yeah, it wasn't until I finished um the Soviet arcade story before that. *07:44* that that uh that I was able to to really dig in there. *07:51* And that was a little bit more of a a manageable story for me. *07:55* Uh yeah, I did do work on it o uh over the years, but it wasn't like it wasn't like I put hundreds of hours into it before the finishing thing. *07:59* It was more like I would open it up *08:07* and listen and be like, what the fuck? *08:08* I can't do this. *08:11* Um and just really I just lost confidence in myself entirely. *08:12* Um and and I and it was across the board and everything I was doing and music and everything. *08:16* I I just *08:21* I just hit like the 40, like bad zone, mid midlife crisis, I guess you could say. *08:22* Uh, and and I had to work my way back to having some confidence in it *08:30* I'm glad that you you've built that confidence back up because you have something really great to offer. *08:36* You're a storyteller in a way. *08:42* Other people are telling you stories and then you you share those with the world and you put your *08:44* your narrative flair on it, not just the way you cut it up and splice it, but the way you weave music into it and vibe, you know, put it all together. *08:49* It just makes it it elevates *08:57* Well a story a guy could be telling you at at a bar is elevated when it's spliced up and into the narrative that you the tapestry you make, I guess. *09:00* You know what I'm trying to say. *09:10* I know, I know, and and that's that's the power of of radio and what what I love about it. *09:13* Um but there are a lot of *09:19* decisions to be made along the way. *09:22* Like for example, in in that story, um I I stumbled into that because uh Anna Kipnis *09:25* who was a programmer at Double Fine. *09:32* I I was at GDC, she's a friend of mine, and she's like, Hey, I wanna introduce you to this guy, Brian Gibson, um, who is in in the band Lightning Bolt, who I had seen who I l I love *09:35* I wouldn't say I'm like a huge fan of the band, but I had a crazy experience seeing them at an Oakland warehouse show um in my early thirties. *09:46* And I I they were like a famous band to me. *09:55* And so I was like, oh wow, what are you doing at GDC? *09:57* And *09:59* We were hanging out and everything and and so one of the decisions I I had to make was like, how much of the context of this do you need to know at the start? *10:00* Do you need to know that he's in this band that some people know about? *10:08* Does that matter? *10:11* Uh w when do you reveal that? *10:12* Um when do you reveal that the that you know this game that they planned as kids um *10:15* you know, n that they never heard back from Sierra? *10:22* When do you reveal that they found these these elements in the next game? *10:25* Just as as far as like what to withhold, what to what to tell, what was important. *10:30* All those things are are it's it's just like it takes a while to work through what's important to the story, I guess. *10:35* I now I feel like now that I've done that work, maybe I could approach *10:41* things more quickly and efficiently, you know? *10:45* Yeah. *10:50* It's there's a pace to it, a cadence in the in the story that you're telling in *10:51* I guess when you sat down with all, you know, you've heard all this, you're figuring out the story, what *10:57* What was it like to s I'm gonna tackle it now? *11:06* Like this is I've got the confidence, I'm ready. *11:10* Let's tell this, let's tell this story. *11:13* Um, it was really just that I had reached a point with the construction of the narrative itself where it was just a bunch of clips. *11:17* laid out in my audio editing program, I use Reaper. *11:26* Okay. *11:30* And I *11:31* had already I I occasionally when I whenever I lose interest or flag I'll like play with a musical thing and I had already done a couple of like the musical set pieces in it *11:34* And so I basically just started, once I felt like, okay, this is the story, I'm gonna go in here and finish it. *11:45* And then I just went like front to back and *11:51* kind of did all of the musical arranging and final edits, cutting out things that, you know, didn't need to be there and doing all the like *11:54* little micromanagement of time that I do, which it probably strikes people as like a *12:05* mm r I don't know, excessively detailed if they if they knew what I was doing, but I think the effect of it is important. *12:12* Like I I really I edit in a lot of *12:19* space into how people talk. *12:23* Um mo most people when they when you interview them will run all over themselves speaking. *12:26* They will um interrupt themselves, go on tangents. *12:32* um in general speak too fast for someone to absorb what they're saying. *12:37* And so I I do a lot of like *12:44* editing in silence or editing in music to slow things down so that as a listener you can fully absorb what's being said *12:46* Um and yeah, just that you when you say the cadence, it really is like a rhythm of things and it doesn't it's not defined by um by a beat or it's sometimes it is if it's music, but most of the time it's just *12:56* what I w what I feel like I need to hear to make it hit or whatever, to make it make sense. *13:08* Um and that that part actually doesn't take that much time. *13:16* That was like the finishing process and that took *13:19* you know, um maybe for the third story it took me like two weeks to to finish all the the details, including like outrageously detailed shit like *13:22* hand editing every moment of con of uh of syllabus. *13:36* You know, like if you talk into a microphone very close, I've got a pop screen on. *13:40* But um *13:44* you get like sometimes you get these strong ss s sounds. *13:46* Yeah. *13:49* Or you'll get big pops and stuff. *13:50* Um and I had a bunch of those in that story and I would just go *13:52* instead of using a DSer which sounds like crap to me, I would go and uh just edit each instance of it to sound right. *13:55* Uh and just doing little things like that, which is, you know, it's a lot and nobody really does that, but that's just how I work. *14:03* I feel like I I'm not a musician, so I I can't I use applications to help with that process for me. *14:10* Um I don't have that musician's ear, but I do *14:18* take a lot of pride in at least making certain things my shows sound as b as good as they can on my end. *14:22* And so you and I were recording with *14:29* with real I would say real microphones or professional microphones. *14:32* But you know, not everyone does. *14:36* Every w some people just use the headphone microphone that came with their phone. *14:37* seven years ago. *14:42* And it's like, well, what can I do to fix that? *14:43* And I I do take time to try and fix background echo or or things like that. *14:45* And I guess people don't notice because then the problem isn't there. *14:49* But then if I I take pride in those types of episodes. *14:56* Yeah, yeah. *14:59* I I you know, I it doesn't matter to me. *15:00* It's not about sound quality, it's more like does it get in the way? *15:03* Is it distracting? *15:06* Um and I I I often use sources that don't sound very good. *15:08* I mean, there are many pre-pandemic um internet interviews I did on Skype when when the audio quality was really bad. *15:13* And I would just like mess with it till it sounded all right to me. *15:23* Um and you know, I I have nice mics because yeah, I was recording a band and everything and we put a lot of money into that stuff. *15:27* But *15:34* My my like field recording setup was was an original Zoom H2. *15:34* Uh it's like uh fifteen years old. *15:40* And I for the first episode, the first couple of episodes, I only used the stereo mics in it, which are uh small diaphragm condensers *15:43* and they they um pull in a lot of background sound so like if you listen to the first episode and I'm on a roof of this party *15:52* You can just hear the mission district in San Francisco, all the it's it's totally noisy and loud. *16:00* Eventually some film person who listened to the show *16:06* was like, dude, you I uh I like I had to send this to you. *16:11* You need to use this for your interviews and it was a shotgun mic. *16:14* And so I started using a shotgun mic with a foam *16:18* you know, uh windscreen on it and that's that's how I do my interviews now. *16:21* But yeah, uh you know, you g you work with what you get and the most important thing is the material. *16:26* I mean if you get good material, if it sounds bad *16:31* You just need to make it like hearable, understandable. *16:34* You know, it's it's much more important to get mo good material than it is to get good sound, I think. *16:38* Oh yeah. *16:43* That because that's what *16:43* we're there for, right? *16:45* It's the stories, the pe what the sound of the pinball arcade. *16:47* You know, the the balls shooting up the the machine and the springs and the kids running around. *16:53* Or uh you're the the Soviet arcade. *16:58* There's a little you can hear a boy like running around at one point. *17:01* You know, there it's texture. *17:05* So it's not like the cleanest sound. *17:07* It's *17:09* putting you in a place, it's putting you in a room with these people even though it's just coming through your speakers. *17:10* Yeah, I mean in that one, the Soviet arcade, it's funny, it's very similar to the pinball arcade story in the second *17:15* episode but I was using uh the shotgun mic and so there wasn't actually a lot of bleed on stuff but I made a bunch of field recordings and I ended up like using them overlaid because *17:22* it was like a little trick for being able to heavily edit everything. *17:34* Yeah. *17:38* Um because I was I was speaking to people who'd m most of them weren't *17:38* um really great English speakers, but they were like they were willing to try with me and so there's a lot of there's a lot of uh moments that had to be cut, but I used all the all this like noise around us to make it feel *17:42* natural and while giving you a sense of being in that space which was hella noisy and full of all kinds of weird um arcade sounds that I'd never heard before, even though I'm a big arcade game fan, 'cause it was all stuff I'd never been around before. *17:56* Yeah. *18:10* Um yeah. *18:10* I I'm thinking back to that story, I like that sense of place. *18:12* You even give the audience directions to *18:16* the arcade. *18:19* You Lennon's tomb and you're like turn around, there's a Gucci store, and then all these other high end like you you paint a picture *18:20* Of a place with words. *18:28* Like I've never been to Moscow, but I feel like if I was there at Lennon's Two, I could get to this arcade. *18:29* Based off what you said. *18:35* It's Yeah. *18:37* It's a mind's eye thing. *18:39* Yeah, no, I the you know, the narration stuff is another thing that I struggled with a lot. *18:41* Um I don't love to hear myself speak and I have always *18:47* struggled with um wanting to m things to sound kind of spontaneous versus written. *18:52* So so I had to like *18:59* write and record that stuff a few times to get the right feeling. *19:01* I I had to like write it but then basically like internalize it and improvise it. *19:07* Um *19:12* uh you know, after doing it several times. *19:13* Yeah. *19:15* Um and yeah, that that's that's the that's the thing that I'm that I'm working on getting better at *19:16* Yeah, uh that that was a that was a weird story too because you know when I recorded it, it was 2017 when I was in Moscow. *19:24* My my wife had a conference, she's an academic, she had a conference in Moscow. *19:32* And uh there was an opportunity for me to come along and and I was just like, man, I gotta I gotta find something cool like while I'm here and I'd remembered *19:36* reading about that arcade and so I had that opportunity. *19:45* But um, you know, years and years later when I finally did it, the the war in Ukraine had started and I was like, man, how does this *19:49* Like, how do I deal with that? *19:58* Do I need to say anything? *20:00* Is this uh, you know, uh I does it need to be part of the story? *20:03* And I decided that it was more important just to *20:08* kind of have a record of the fact that, you know, when I when I was there it was full of human beings who were *20:11* you know, uh nice good people and like look look at uh you know where where we are now. *20:19* I'm I'm I'm sure that that place uh doesn't get full of *20:25* uh you know, patrons these days and it's just sad to think that things like that aren't accessible. *20:29* I mean no one's even going to Moscow anymore. *20:35* I wouldn't go to Moscow right now. *20:37* Yeah. *20:38* Um uh you know the borders in Europe are closed to Mosc to Russia and for the most part and people are *20:39* people are dying and it's fucked up. *20:46* It's weird to make a a a story in that political environment, but I just sort of kept it focused on the human element and *20:48* you know, let let it speak for itself, I guess. *20:56* Yeah. *20:59* I I like the context you provided. *20:59* I actually like the way you talked about um *21:02* How'd you say it? *21:05* He dabbled he dabbled with invading the Ukraine. *21:06* I I like that. *21:09* That was it felt good there. *21:10* Well from a yeah. *21:13* From an American point of view, I think from an American point of view, I think most people think of *21:14* the Ukraine situation as having started this past year, but I mean Cri Crimea happened years before that. *21:19* And it w happened before I went. *21:26* Like they had already taken Crimea by the time I went to the arcade. *21:28* Uh so I I I just wanted to not um like leave that unsaid or whatever. *21:32* I I I didn't want anybody to feel like I was giving them a pass or something. *21:40* Yeah, no. *21:44* I I think it's it's appropriate context that doesn't weigh it down and it it just it's there and then you get you focus, like you said, on the people in the place and the people behind it maintaining this history. *21:45* And and a lot of the talk is about, you know, certain deprivations that that happened uh during uh authoritarian rule previously. *21:58* You know, part part of what's great about *22:08* Um what people love about those games is that it was their first taste of things that were just purely for joy and f *22:10* Fun, like having access to something just for entertainment, because that was not an expectation of Soviet life for a lot of that time. *22:19* And you know *22:28* uh things things are turning turning bad again and I don't know if you know everybody has the same access to to things they used to have yeah there. *22:29* But yeah. *22:37* What how is you know, you mentioned you found out your wife was pregnant when you were at that GDC. *22:39* How has having your kids impacted the *22:47* The way you look at and I guess like produce the show and look for stories, like how have your kids shifted the way that you look at a story you want to tell on the show? *22:51* Um not really uh as far as, you know, I still I'm always just looking for the same thing, which is just s some interesting person who's very open and maybe has *23:03* like good stories to tell. *23:17* Um you know, and I'm always looking for things to be either funny or sad. *23:19* I I like a little bit of like intellectual *23:25* um discussion here and there, but I definitely can't go on very long with that. *23:29* I need I need some feelings in it or something. *23:34* Um the kids but mainly the mainly what it changes for me is just *23:37* forcing me to get a little more um a little more organized and a like to work in a more rational, reasonable way. *23:42* I can't just stay up all night or *23:52* Um, I I can't just get distracted from life and focus on it entirely. *23:55* So I I have to do it in in little chunks, which is hard for me because I'm kind of a inspiration-driven person. *24:00* Um *24:07* And I don't like to think of it as a job, so um I I yeah, I *24:08* The I the one thing I would say is my nine-year-old has become um interested in the show and really wants to participate in making an an episode with me. *24:16* Uh and *24:27* And I'm I'm not sure what that could mean. *24:28* But you know, he wants to participate in making dinner too and that generally means like mixing the batter *24:31* Yeah. *24:36* Or you know, I I just like I guess I could teach him to to like DS the audio. *24:37* Like here's here, you know, pull this down. *24:43* This is this is this is the plosive. *24:46* Just pull it down. *24:48* How does it sound to you now? *24:49* Here's the before, here's the after. *24:50* He's he's he's interested though, so I'll probably let him in on it. *24:52* Um *24:57* Yeah, but otherwise it hasn't affected the w the stories I'm looking for. *24:58* I I do *25:04* Having kids recontextualizes video games for me. *25:06* I notice things about games that I never noticed before, like my nine-year-old is playing Breath of the Wild. *25:09* Okay and because I played that game when I was, you know, thirty eight or thirty nine or something *25:16* I just my experience with it is so different. *25:24* I got in there and I was just like, all right, let's go to work. *25:26* Let's get through this Zelda game. *25:28* Like I've played every Zelda game. *25:30* Let's hit this shit up. *25:31* Um, and he's playing it and and to him it's like the world's largest backyard or something. *25:33* Uh he doesn't he doesn't care about progress at all. *25:39* He just loves *25:42* the environment of being out in nature. *25:44* It's it's I I now see that of course, like so many of these things w that *25:47* in the nerd world we assume are aimed at us, the grown ups, it's really like for a kid, it's a magical place. *25:52* You know, you get the freedom to travel around and *25:59* beautiful natural environment uh with total freedom uh you know I kids don't get that, you know. *26:02* Yeah. *26:09* And uh so I I do I do notice games in a different light. *26:10* But I it hasn't it hasn't affected the stories I'm after just yet. *26:13* I that reminds me of uh a quote. *26:17* I I forget specifically who was probably Anauma from Zelda, but *26:21* He was they were talking about the first time they showed Miyamoto, the the Breath of the Wild, like the build. *26:26* This is back on the Wii U or whatever *26:32* And I guess Miyamoto just spent all this time climbing the trees and picking the apples. *26:34* Which is *26:41* Not what I did in Zelda and not what you did, but it's it is that childlike wonder of I can do this, um, and I have this freedom to explore this place and just collect a bunch of *26:42* Fruit. *26:55* He's I mean he definitely has a singular view about play. *26:59* He's he's someone who has a strong sense of what it means to play. *27:04* Whereas I think for someone who grows up playing games, we get really into these systems and I just immediately like, okay, fill out the map, climb the tower. *27:08* G beat the shrine. *27:19* You know, I I go immediately into like checklist mode, even though that game doesn't require that of you at all. *27:21* I've just been like had my mind shaped by previous *27:26* games, you know. *27:30* I I wish I played it in a in a chiller way like that. *27:31* I so I actually worked on helped with the guide for that game over at IGN, so I was a part of that team. *27:34* And so my job with that game was to be kind of pragmatic of here we go, here's how we're gonna find they assigned me before the internet found out what you get for collecting all 900 Korox seeds, like *27:41* for a br uh for like a week my job was to map the Korox seeds, which was horrendous. *27:53* Dude, oh man. *28:00* I like I don't envy that at all. *28:02* I I I I don't envy it na now either. *28:04* That's like uh you know, I I I used to I used to write video game reviews back in the day for like Electronic Gaming Monthly and some other uh *28:08* game magazines and their policy was that you had to beat the game. *28:19* And so there there were times and you know, it was back in the day when we got stuff like really early, you know, you get like a two month lead time on a game *28:23* But it would destroy the fun of playing some really cool games. *28:33* Like I I still remember feeling so stressed out about finishing that um Zelda like *28:37* a commie, you know, the dog the cleanerly dog Yeah. *28:44* Very cool looking game, but man, uh if you only have like *28:48* five days to get through it. *28:52* It's long and uh and you know, you gotta r write a review on top of it. *28:54* It was just all all the stress of *28:58* playing games in that way. *29:00* It was no no fun at all. *29:01* And I it I was so glad to like get back into games when I was done having to play games in that way. *29:03* Yeah, I'm I'm excited for Tears of the Kingdom because I don't have to work for it. *29:10* I can do whatever I I can take as long as I want to beat that game. *29:14* Yeah, and if I'm gonna beat it, it's gonna take me a year anyway. *29:19* Yeah. *29:22* Yeah, I've who knows what, Mark. *29:25* Time will look I I guess with the baby at six months it's it'll be okay. *29:27* I'll I'll probably still be okay. *29:31* I don't have to take her too many. *29:33* I got I got I got a lot of games. *29:34* played during the early years, especially there was this wonderful year or two where there was a long afternoon nap *29:37* And every afternoon I I was I was that was when I played Breath of the Wild and Metal Gear Solid Five. *29:46* I was like tanking through those games. *29:52* I mean I you just need a couple hours a day. *29:54* Yeah. *29:56* I just can't seem to find that now for some reason. *29:56* And my kids are playing games constantly. *29:59* My time is that early morning. *30:02* It's cause I don't want to take away time from my family in the evening, so I I play I wake up early and play. *30:03* That's generally my time. *30:10* We'll see how long that lasts, but that's that's where I'm at. *30:11* I like I like sleep too much. *30:15* I just go to bed early. *30:18* I'm just an old man like that, I guess. *30:20* Yeah. *30:23* You know, I g is ten o'clock early. *30:23* I don't know. *30:25* That's kind of the ten o'clock's early, man. *30:25* Yeah, that's the average lately. *30:27* I I try to I try to get to sleep by midnight. *30:30* Okay. *30:33* We'll see how my life shifts as she gets older and older. *30:34* I wanted to go back n you know, now we're we've talked about kind of the more recent episod the most recent episode. *30:39* I want to go back to the beginning and I'm, you know, googling around Robert Ashley, finding all this stuff. *30:45* And your giant bomb profile, for you have a giant bomb profile, I guess. *30:52* I do. *30:58* You do apparently. *30:59* Um they talk about how you used to be on GFW radio, which I had never heard of a uh 97. *31:00* 5 the Brodeo, I guess. *31:06* Um But the this *31:10* This particular profile informs me of a an what they call an out-of-the-box episode of GFW radio *31:12* uh which essentially was like the incept or the first episode zero of a life well wasted. *31:20* And so I wanted to see if if you uh *31:25* I wanted to maybe try and take you back. *31:28* So you should be able to hear this. *31:30* I we'll see. *31:31* We'll start uh with my favorite quote *31:32* Actually it's like the it's like the Federalists versus the Anti Federalists. *31:36* They're in they're they're in Philadelphia for the Constitutional Convention. *31:39* From the Philadelphia filibuster. *31:49* That was all Sean Elliott. *31:56* Like that whole thing, I mean *31:58* There would have there was an in in another universe I would have made a radio show with him and it would have been like video game jackass or something. *31:59* It it like it's *32:07* He's really funny and that was his whole idea. *32:09* We were pretending to be, you know, you have you ever been approached outside of a mall or something by a consumer survey and they're like, can we talk to you? *32:12* Would you be interested in playing a game called the Founding Fighters if it had uh moves like the Knickerbocker Shocker? *32:19* The Knickerbocker Shocker kills me. *32:28* The fact it's Alexander Hamilton's before *32:31* Obviously the musical and like hit him as a founding father blew up in popularity of just I'm picturing *32:34* I'm picturing Lynn Minwell doing the Knickerbocker. *32:41* Uh yeah, man, that was just like an off *32:48* Episode where we had been recording uh at at the Ziff Davis office and they had a little podcasting set up and it was very early in the podcasting thing. *32:50* I mean when they started podcasting there *32:59* everyone's attitude at the magazines was like, what is this shit? *33:02* We don't have ti we we have a magazine to make. *33:05* Like who wants to even listen to us talk about video games? *33:07* And then l the audience response was enormous, like way more than anyone ever, you know, online ever talked about in the magazine. *33:11* Like we'd do all this work on the magazine and people would just be *33:20* on the on, you know, the gaming forums being like, Whoa, this this week's episode was great and it was just something we like knocked out. *33:24* hanging out for an hour or whatever. *33:33* And so it was a weird adjustment. *33:35* Um, but the one week we didn't have access or something, and I decided that I would be the producer on it. *33:37* And so we did some *33:43* things like that, like some Man on the Street stuff and um I can't even remember what all it was. *33:45* But yeah, the the other games were *33:51* There was like some cuty calls was like a call of duty thing, but the whole thing was that the c like we kept on telling people that the c *33:53* characters were like real life size instead of small. *34:01* Full size guys, not tiny guys zoomed in. *34:05* Yeah, like we're not zooming in on time engine. *34:09* Yeah. *34:11* I just uh something about the ridiculousness of that, like how big is a is a video game character? *34:13* I don't know. *34:19* Uh I guess that's what VR is now. *34:20* VR is like big tech. *34:22* It's like, wow, things are big now. *34:23* Uh but uh yeah, that was that was hilarious. *34:26* Uh I miss that guy. *34:30* I haven't talked to him much. *34:31* He's he's like a he's he's *34:32* I I th I don't know if he's the creative director of the new Bioshock game. *34:35* He's he's like high up in the new Bioshock there. *34:39* Okay. *34:42* Yeah. *34:42* Holy smokes. *34:43* There's *34:44* There was also Tender Rondo, the delicate saga. *34:45* And uh Walkart where *34:51* You had fat people on carts in Walmart, but like you had to get out of the cart to reach the top shelf. *34:54* Oh. *35:01* Yeah, that one might be regrettable. *35:02* You know, Sean had a real interest in like *35:04* Um, I don't know. *35:08* But some n not not so na nice looks at America, I would say. *35:10* He he he definitely thought America was like full of *35:15* fat crazy people or something and and enjoyed the humor. *35:18* But uh yeah. *35:22* It was at first I thought it was like *35:23* At first I couldn't tell. *35:27* I was like, tender runner, what is this? *35:28* And then you get to duty calls, which was an I was like, oh my gosh, they are just these poor people they're talking to. *35:30* And we're standing outside of a GameStop. *35:37* Like we were we were like approaching people going into GameStop with a little clipboard and everything. *35:40* It was it was really silly. *35:47* This is this is another *35:49* particular moment, which I think is more a life while wasted tuned, but also has another f line I love. *35:51* Uh probably ten right now. *35:56* Okay. *35:58* This is ten out of twenty. *36:00* Lock and load, duty calls, sure fire shooting, guts and balls, online mode, baby best of all. *36:04* Big tech graphics ain't have it small, have it small, have it small, have it small No. *36:11* It's so funny, but *36:20* Yeah. *36:22* That's uh you you're I assume you're the one making the song, like the music to it and kind of Yeah, I assume that would have been you, right? *36:22* Yeah, no, it was me. *36:30* It was the drum track from an I Come to Shanghai song that actually made it on record. *36:32* Uh the first album, uh the last song on the first album, Do We Have to Rise Again. *36:37* It was just uh just the drum track and it's just like I don't know what I did that it sounds like I compressed the living fuck out of it. *36:42* Like the you the kick drums like bong bong bong. *36:50* I don't know what that is. *36:54* But uh yeah, i and and he had Sean had an obsession with uh some some rapper, I can't remember who I thought I I was not into it. *36:55* He but he had a voice like that. *37:05* He would *37:06* He he sounded like a like a mean hobo or something. *37:07* Like he would rap in that voice. *37:11* I can't remember the guy's name. *37:13* Not not not my thing, but Rashawn's version of it was pretty good. *37:15* And he would do that *37:19* On on the GFW radio show pretty often. *37:20* That's so funny. *37:24* I just but that I had never known about that and so and part of my re-listen was to go back and hear *37:25* Essentially the inception of a life well wasted to a degree of interviewing people, just like strangers at a GameStop. *37:31* Which I I gotta say also GFW radio, the re I think the reason why we ended up being call called the Brodeo was they they changed the name of our magazine um from Computer Gaming World, which was a classic *37:41* long-standing computer gaming magazine that had been operating for like twenty years to Games for Windows magazine, which was, you know, sponsored by Microsoft. *37:56* And you yeah, and like Games for Windows was this initiative that they had at Microsoft. *38:07* Everyone at the magazine was like, this sucks. *38:12* And so *38:15* No one really wanted to be called GFW or what you know, so we just had some stupid name for it. *38:16* Oh my gosh. *38:22* Yeah. *38:23* It's such an interesting *38:25* Time to think and look back at. *38:27* And I actually it's probably a good segue. *38:28* Your first episode of Life Well Wasted was the death of EGM *38:31* Essentially the death of the these magazines that you used to work for and that idea. *38:35* And this is a bit longer of a quote. *38:39* I don't remember specifically who you were talking to here, but *38:41* The gist was it's all about quick hits and and things like that. *38:44* And so a few a few American print mags left, but it's obviously, you know, coming to an end. *38:48* Yeah. *38:55* Do you think do you think that *38:56* We're gonna miss out on anything? *38:57* Do you think that there's anything that isn't gonna make the jump to to the internet? *38:59* Well I'm I'm worried about it because *39:04* More and more you're seeing a focus with internet media about being like quick hits, like very short content, easily digestible, easily distributable. *39:08* Like if you're on Twitter, if you're on Facebook status up like status updates, like I have this really quick link of a top five or a top ten. *39:19* You don't really have to invest too much time or brain power in trying to figure it out *39:27* I think that's happening with us. *39:31* And it's really, you know, it's really sad. *39:33* Yeah. *39:36* Happened. *39:38* I feel like that's more true today than ever. *39:40* Yeah. *39:42* I mean, well nobody has reading habits anymore. *39:42* Social media is not where you get a read. *39:47* I mean, I occasionally, because I follow a bunch of publications, will come off of a Twitter link into *39:49* like a three thousand word story that I actually read. *39:56* But something tells me that's not a common experience. *39:59* And in general, if you're just trying to get someone to show up at your website for a second, it's better to *40:02* just lead with some silly thing that people might click click on. *40:08* I we yeah, that stuff is that stuff is gone and some of it I don't miss. *40:12* Honestly, the the *40:17* Th the fact that like for the past ten years on Twitter and Facebook we've all been just shouting our opinions at each other has made me *40:20* I don't know, much less interested in people's opinions. *40:29* And so I I I I just don't um *40:32* Yeah, it's it's hard to see where the place of like the classic critic is in in video games. *40:37* I do read *40:43* video game reviews that impress me and like inform my thinking, but it happens very r rarely, you know what I mean? *40:44* And and it's only a few writers who really *40:52* managed to nail that and they must do it like with almost no incentive because there's really no great *40:55* career to be had out there for it. *41:04* It's not it's not like if you do really well in that in that environment that you're gonna um have a good job where you can raise a family and buy a house. *41:06* It's out of just like *41:15* pure interest on the part of the the writer, which is cool, but you know, when I was working for magazines, you know, th those those things like paid *41:16* Well, that that was a good job and that stuff is gone. *41:26* Oh yeah. *41:30* It's that was what I was trying to do when I was getting ready to graduate college, was like, oh, I'm gonna go to California. *41:31* I'm gonna work for IGN and and *41:38* play games, write reviews, do all this stuff. *41:40* And it I met my wife, which is the best thing that ever happened to me. *41:43* And then uh *41:47* And obviously didn't end up doing that 'cause it impacted the both of us and n I don't know how anyone affords to live in California, period. *41:48* So we just never went and now *41:56* I I don't know how anyone still does it out there, but I just get to do it for myself now is why I started this b the the blog thing, you know, a couple of years ago. *41:59* It's just like I just want a place to write that's not two hundred and eighty characters and *42:08* say what I want to say and and as many words as I need to say it and then just put it out there. *42:13* And if someone wants to read it they can and if not, fine by me. *42:18* Yeah, yeah. *42:22* Well, I mean I think that um you know, when there's more community around things, which could happen again as Twitter falls apart and people *42:22* move to more community-minded alternatives like Mastodon. *42:32* I I can imagine there being um at least more of an audience. *42:35* The th the thing is it just becomes another one of these areas where *42:39* people do work for free and someone, you know, who has nothing to do with it ends up profiting from it. *42:43* And that that's very irritating to me. *42:49* But yeah, I mean that's the same situation with music where *42:51* If you're not Taylor Swift, like why are you even trying to make a living from music? *42:55* It's just imp it's just impossible. *43:01* Uh and like the people I know who are working musicians, I mean *43:03* They are working like if they if they were working in the private sector, you would say they were like workaholic uh exp exploited people, but they're exploiting themselves just like *43:07* you know, putting in uh the maximum amount of time and effort they can so that they can make the rent and it's just damn man, it's a hard way to hard way to get it done. *43:19* Yeah. *43:29* Uh *43:29* Uh props to the people out there like you said earlier, the grind. *43:30* They're they are grinding. *43:34* I think the grind is a terrible culture, but if you're grinding for yourself, *43:36* I'm cool with it. *43:40* Like if you if you wake up in the morning because you've got something you want to do and it's your it's your business, it's your project and it's not for some *43:41* dickhead or some company, then yeah, like do it. *43:51* That's great. *43:55* I totally agree. *43:56* That's I did that I've done it quite a few times, but like I wrote like this big history on Naughty Dog, which no one would *43:57* like published today really, you know. *44:05* It was like eighteen thousand words. *44:07* And I was waking up and writing it in the mor it was that I think back then I was waking up at three 'cause I'd I'd have to go drive down to Disney for work. *44:09* So that's an hour *44:18* It was an hour one way, so two hours a day in the car, eight hours at the office. *44:19* It was like the only time to write it would have been at home. *44:23* And so I just I did the rise and grind the rise part of the grind. *44:26* Yeah. *44:30* Just to write that. *44:30* And that was for me. *44:31* And what were you doing at Disney? *44:33* I was a technical writer. *44:35* So um the maintenance manuals for attractions. *44:36* I always my explanation to people is like if Space Mountain goes down, the maintenance folks would read *44:40* our manual was the idea. *44:46* Um I did that for a few years and then I left last year. *44:48* So during the pandemic we had to work from home and did our jobs from home. *44:54* But then *44:59* They wanted everyone to start coming back in and so when you take the two hour commute, we had found out in the during the time of working from home that we were pregnant and it was like, Well, working from home was like getting a raise because I stopped spending *45:00* $250 on gas a week and however much in tolls. *45:14* So now they want to take all that back. *45:18* And so I switched, I still do technical writing just now for like a military subcontractor. *45:20* that's ten minutes down the road, but I can I can work from home and and whatnot. *45:26* So I do the same thing just for a different company and and more money, but *45:30* I just don't understand the point of bringing technical writers into an office. *45:35* What is the point? *45:39* That that does that doesn't make any fucking sense. *45:40* It's all like *45:42* It's a it's a back and forth in text between you and some other editor, right? *45:43* Like j what is the point? *45:48* The idea of it would be the the spontaneity of talking to an engineer, but that never happens because *45:50* the the engineers or as Disney would want you to call them, the imagineers, were so busy, like you always had to schedule time to talk with them or email them the thing to review and then hound them to *45:57* you know, comment back. *46:09* And they probably Yeah, they probably had a strong preference for you just emailing them, I imagine. *46:11* Well, yeah. *46:16* I'm sure I've annoyed quite a few engineers in my time. *46:16* And so the idea was *46:19* You know, well, you could just walk over there. *46:21* And it's like, well, we never just walk over there. *46:22* We always schedule it. *46:24* And if I have to schedule it, I'll happily come in. *46:25* One of the things you have to do on site is like take pictures of things because you can't. *46:29* You have to be there to take a picture of something. *46:34* But that was always the coolest part of the job. *46:35* Because you would get to go into Hollywood Studios at two in the morning and no one's in the park. *46:38* And so then you get to see things and that no one else would get to see, and that's so fun. *46:44* So that was always my favorite part of the job was taking pictures of stuff because *46:49* Yeah, that's cool. *46:53* Yeah, that was like the best part of it. *46:54* And see things backstage and and all sorts of I've been on the roof of the Chinese theater, which is a very cool place. *46:55* You know? *47:01* Or I've been the only person on Main Street at Disney World. *47:02* Like that never happens in day. *47:05* Yeah, that's that's dreamy, strange, hard to imagine. *47:06* Yeah. *47:10* It is weird. *47:11* And then I would also take the big fancy camera and take pictures while I'm walking around for myself as well. *47:11* Cause, you know, when it's all decked out for Christmas, you can get some pretty cool shots without any *47:17* People in the way. *47:23* People, yeah, yeah. *47:25* That's cool. *47:26* Yeah. *47:27* I there were good parts of that job, but also the whole please come back to the office and *47:27* Don't take more money. *47:32* It was like, oh, I don't know if I want to do that. *47:34* It's probably just an excuse to get rid of the o the older people and just get new *47:36* New fans, because that's what all of these companies rely on. *47:41* They they have people who just really want to work there and then they burn through them and get new ones. *47:45* Yeah. *47:51* And I I work there because *47:51* It was an interview and it was a job and at the time I was working at a grocery store. *47:53* It was like I like Disney. *47:57* I'm probably more jaded now than I was before I worked for them, but you know, I go see a Disney movie. *47:59* I like stuff they make, but I'm not this *48:04* Woo-hoo, Mickey Mouse. *48:08* Well there are those people and they they I you know, I I had a friend in college who spent every summer working in *48:11* in uh Disney World and his whole life aspiration was just to work there no matter what. *48:19* And I bet he doesn't work there now, but I don't know. *48:25* Pro probably not. *48:28* The pandemic has been particularly difficult for the theme park side of things. *48:30* It's yeah. *48:35* It was interesting. *48:36* But speaking of I guess Hollywood *48:37* There's a Tetris movie coming out, which is a very weird thing to say. *48:40* And I just you have a episode, I think it's it might be big ideas. *48:45* I think it is big ideas, where you talk to him. *48:49* Um oh Hank. *48:52* The guy who basically has the rights to Rogers. *48:55* Yes. *48:57* He has the rights to Tetris along with the creator. *48:58* I just want to know, do you think that the like the people working on the movie have listened to your episode? *49:01* I wonder. *49:08* I mean I I Because your episode tells the story. *49:09* Yeah, yeah. *49:12* I don't uh somewhere along the line, I wouldn't be surprised if if someone had heard that. *49:13* Um but I imagine they have access to Hank. *49:19* I mean *49:22* That guy's definitely, you know, been shopping around his his story. *49:22* I I I he just seems like he he's been looking for for a venue for it or something. *49:29* 'Cause he's got great stories. *49:34* Yeah, I'll tell you a funny thing about about that episode, which was, you know, you already mentioned that there's uh an uh there's a story at the end of it um with *49:36* Gosh, what uh what's what's uh I'm I'm struggling here to remember his name. *49:48* Uh Jonah Falcon. *49:53* Jonah Falcon here. *49:54* I knew it was a J name. *49:55* Yeah, Jonah Falcon was a was a game blogger, sort of famous on the internet, um, and but ma mainly famous for supposedly having the largest penis. *49:57* um you know, d documented and and so I d I interviewed him and like made a story about how this guy like had sort of built his whole identity around having a really big dick. *50:08* Um and it's in the same episode as the Hank Rogers story about Tetris. *50:19* And so after it came out, I got a PR email from one of his media people that was like, We would like to request that you take down this episode or remove the interview with Hank. *50:23* who does not want to be associated with um this other story and I was like no sorry um and that you know they didn't like push beyond that but they didn't really have anything *50:33* to say. *50:48* I I I don't I don't give anyone a heads up on what's gonna happen. *50:48* So that's the only negative actually that episode in general, I got some feedback from Jonah and I I have I have like *50:53* regretted from time to time some of the presentation of his story because I think it's a little too having fun with him. *51:01* I always want people to feel like fairly *51:09* drawn in a story. *51:12* Like I want them to hear a story and be like, yeah, that's me and that's that's what I'm about, you know, and I think I had a little too much fun with him. *51:14* But it's it's just it was hard to resist because *51:21* It's strange to meet someone whose like whole thing is having a big penis. *51:25* Yeah. *51:33* Like I tried finding his blog. *51:34* You know, I'm I can't f you search his name, you can't find anything except Yeah, no, it's what he he chose a weird w life path. *51:37* To choose to become known for that while not doing like porn or anything. *51:48* He doesn't like show people that *51:53* But he wants to talk about it and wants to be known for it. *51:56* And I think it's just that he got a lot of attention from an an early age and some of it like not not so good, honestly. *51:59* I mean, uh he lost his virginity to some random neighborhood *52:05* girl who heard about his endowment and who was much older than him and, you know, kind the kind of stuff that you you hear about now and you'd be like, oh that's not okay, you know. *52:09* Uh *52:19* And he just got a lot of attention for it. *52:20* And I I thought that it was a worthy story. *52:22* I just think maybe I could I I w when he wrote back he said, you know, he was getting some some *52:26* you know, trolling responses from people online about it. *52:33* And I I didn't want I didn't want people to like um, you know, abuse him or anything. *52:37* He's a nice guy *52:43* Yeah. *52:44* Uh you know, he lives with his mom. *52:45* He's a he's kind of a sweetheart. *52:46* Um and yeah, I don't know. *52:50* But it was funny that they wanted me to take it down. *52:53* I'm I'm interested to see the the the Tetris movie. *52:56* It seems a little more *53:00* keyed up than the the story that he told me, which was you know, serious enough. *53:02* Uh i it was it's definitely *53:08* a dicey situation to walk in the the Soviet Union and try to get the commercial rights for some intellectual property. *53:10* That's kind of audacious and they were lucky *53:18* that they got it, you know. *53:20* Uh yeah. *53:22* Uh effectively changed his life forever. *53:23* Yeah. *53:26* I mean I was just playing Tetris yesterday. *53:27* Yeah, that that game that game is will never will never pass unless there's like no electricity. *53:31* If we if we really hit the dark ages again, we'll have to *53:38* retreat back to chess or something, but Tetris is is a permanent feature of humanity at this point, I think. *53:41* That was part of I actually I wrote *53:46* the Tetris effect review for dual shockers back in the day when that game launched. *53:50* And that was part of my angle essentially. *53:54* My grandmother introduced me to Tetris. *53:56* Um, you know, she had the Game Boy with the cartridge, right? *53:58* And that was my first exposure to it. *54:01* And she eventually she became sick with dementia, and uh she passed away a few years ago. *54:04* But I was playing this Tetris effect, which is kind of this whole thing of weaving music and lights and sounds and effects and then connecting the world together to like do stuff. *54:11* So it's not just Tetris, it's like this whole experience, right? *54:20* And *54:24* I just I remember I th it might be the closing paragraph or essentially it was just like Tetris is a language we all speak essentially these days. *54:25* And my grandmother was a part of that and she passed, you know, it was a I at the time probably a way for me to *54:33* memorialize her in some way, even though it's associated with a video game, which was the angle. *54:39* But yeah, Tetris is never ever ever going away. *54:45* Yeah, I few games have reached that kind of ubiquity, I I feel like, and they they dress it up in various ways, but it's really *54:48* It's really the same game, you know. *54:56* And and I guess it it maybe it's analogous to like a card game that, you know, has been played for a long time, like poker or I don't I don't know. *54:57* But uh it will it would be interesting to see like in what ways people play Tetris a hundred years from now. *55:06* I'm sure they will. *55:12* Oh yeah. *55:13* I mean we're out we're already at VR Tetris, so I don't know what's next. *55:14* You *55:18* I don't know. *55:19* Yeah. *55:20* I mean you look up and like the Tetris field is like a skyscraper or something. *55:20* I I the the scale of VR stuff is what interests me. *55:26* Like we were joking about the big tech or whatever, but it would be cool to be *55:29* You know, for Tetris pieces to be the size of a car and you're like they're falling down. *55:33* But maybe you don't even need that kind of stimulation. *55:38* Maybe we just need to pair it back to the most simple Tetris and and just enjoy *55:41* the form for what it is. *55:47* It doesn't need much. *55:48* No. *55:49* The core of it. *55:50* No. *55:51* Yeah, for sure not. *55:51* So *55:53* One of the themes I kind of noticed, I guess, in your the way you've talked about a life well wasted since you know, over the years. *55:55* is you you have this escalation to yourself, you kind of always were escalating the edit up, up, up, up, up. *56:04* And I'm *56:10* Now that eight is done and you said you're working on the next episode whenever that'll come out and I'm excited to hear that. *56:12* Are you is it still escalating or are you trying to keep that in check? *56:21* Have you toned it back? *56:25* What's the vibe what's the vibe there? *56:26* Um, I'm I'm not trying to escalate anything. *56:29* Now it's more like um there are subtle things that I would like to be better at. *56:32* And also just *56:38* Like I'm in the material gathering portion, so right now I'm really focused on how how much good material matters, you know. *56:39* I um *56:48* And and yeah, just getting good material is the whole thing. *56:49* And I I'm trying to get in the mode of of just taking in material as much as possible whenever I can. *56:53* Um but yeah, I'm not looking there's not another level that I have in mind. *57:01* I mean I would say I uh probably already *57:08* reached the absolute limits of my insanity like a long time ago, um in that same episode, the Big Ideas episode, when I had people call in *57:11* and leave messages with their game ideas and then I edited it all together into like a song thing that I made. *57:21* That that was like a like a manic episode that I had. *57:28* I I I that that took me like two weeks just to make that five minute *57:31* thing and I can remember being up at like really weird hours and you know just do all all just being totally obsessed with that thing *57:36* Um I I'm still proud of it, but I don't know that I'll ever go any crazier than that as far as like a collage piece. *57:46* May maybe I will. *57:54* Maybe I'll like get more and more comfortable. *57:55* I definitely have like a a comfort with my *57:57* my software now. *58:01* Like I work on a computer that is fourteen years old and hasn't been updated since 2015 with any *58:02* new software and I replaced the h the power supply in it um this past year successfully and it's still *58:11* still functioning and I just I know everything I know how everything works in it. *58:18* I know what I like to use for all my sound stuff. *58:22* It's very, very it's a great tool and so *58:26* I'm prepared to do that stuff. *58:29* At at the same time, I'm also I'm working on a new series um with with that same friend of mine, Grant Stewart, that I mentioned. *58:31* Yeah. *58:39* Um and so *58:39* I don't know that I have like the time to go deeper into production. *58:41* Um I I'll probably just be like struggling to maintain my *58:47* my current level level uh working on these shows concurrently. *58:52* I would say my goal for a life well wasted *58:57* is probably n no more uh intense than, you know, trying to get out at least an episode a year. *59:00* Okay *59:06* That's like an episode an episode or two a year would be would be great. *59:07* Um and honestly, like my poster guy, Ollie, he doesn't really have time to do much more than that. *59:11* And it's not really a business anyway. *59:16* It's like an art project for me that I want to maintain. *59:19* So so yeah, I would like to still *59:23* keep some sort of regularity. *59:26* I kind of like that it's an event when it comes out. *59:27* I mean people probably like reward me for the wrong thing by me waiting for a long time. *59:30* There was a big response and I was like, oh well. *59:34* Shit. *59:37* I'll just keep waiting. *59:37* Yeah, yeah, exactly. *59:43* No, but I mean I I am I I've already done like many interviews uh in this past *59:44* uh couple months. *59:50* So uh I'm I am gathering material and stuff. *59:51* And maybe maybe Grant will get me in a situation where I can get *59:55* Get everything done more quickly. *01:00:00* Um I'm learning to collaborate with people since this has uh been entirely like my singular thing on my own the whole time. *01:00:01* So that song that in the *01:00:09* It's the big ideas. *01:00:12* I g that's I guess the epi I and that's also the episode I remember by the the box compactor, so I guess it's probably the one that sticks with me the most. *01:00:14* But *01:00:22* That and actually hear memory too as well. *01:00:22* They kick memory kicks off with the song that you you kind of take the Super Mario 64 speedrunner. *01:00:26* And his narrative of like up, forward, jump, turn, kick the tree and you put that to the beat of the Super Mario music. *01:00:33* It *01:00:42* I think he even talks about you keeping up with the click or the beat of the song. *01:00:43* And it reminded me of I I'm gonna say it wrong, but uh Jor *01:00:47* Giorgio by Mord Mordor. *01:00:54* I don't know. *01:00:56* The third song on Random Access Memories by Daft Punk. *01:00:57* However you say that, but *01:01:01* Giovanni Giorgio. *01:01:03* Giorgio everyone called the Giorgio. *01:01:04* Giorgia Giorgio Rom uh Gior Giorgio Morota, the famous Italian synth *01:01:06* Yeah. *01:01:11* They take in that song. *01:01:12* They go he says, I knew we needed a click, so we put a click on the 24th track. *01:01:13* Which then was synced up to the case. *01:01:18* It comes in behind him. *01:01:21* Click, click, click. *01:01:22* And you do the same thing. *01:01:23* To make this more consistent we count the beats of the background music so we can keep track of this click *01:01:25* Click, click, click, click, click. *01:01:31* So for example, his instructions. *01:01:34* And it I would I remember starting the episode in the car on the way to the grocery store, and I was like *01:01:40* Robert hasn't missed a step. *01:01:46* So but the the way you the you the way you weave your music into the stories, I'm just *01:01:48* I'm fascinated by that process. *01:01:56* Yeah. *01:01:59* Just like how you approach music with the show. *01:01:59* Yeah, well, um I love that song. *01:02:04* I didn't think about that we weirdly. *01:02:08* I mean that's a radio story. *01:02:10* That that that song, that daft punk song, that's a daft punk radio story, and I'm standing by it. *01:02:11* Um, I know exactly what you're talking about. *01:02:16* It's like one of my favorite songs on that album. *01:02:18* I hadn't thought about it. *01:02:20* 'Cause they're kind of explaining how *01:02:21* their music works, what it means to like be a composer. *01:02:24* There's there's a lot of like um story going on in in that song. *01:02:28* But uh yeah, I you know *01:02:32* Um I actually tried to represent that guy's run as closely as I could because he does *01:02:35* We i it's a blindfolded speed run, which is an absurd thing that I didn't even really realize happened until this past year. *01:02:43* And that's the only story I *01:02:49* I w was like freshly recorded for 2022 last year um because I needed a an another like small story. *01:02:51* Um but *01:03:00* Yeah, I I tried really hard to represent what he actually does to the beat of the song. *01:03:02* The trouble being that the pace of it is actually too fast. *01:03:07* to say everything like to the beat. *01:03:12* And so I slowed down the song from from the level. *01:03:15* It's like if you listen to it next to the original, it's like pitched down. *01:03:20* It's because *01:03:23* I actually just like time stretched it by playing it at a lower play rate. *01:03:24* Um and then m you know I worked with him to figure to get him to say exactly what his inputs were. *01:03:29* um for for getting a star in this one level. *01:03:37* And that's a good example of of like how I use music because I I don't *01:03:41* weave music into something, I actually like use music as the scaffold for the interview or for the radio stuff. *01:03:47* I'll I'll I'll take on the rhythm of *01:03:57* of the music that I'm using and and oftentimes it'll be something that I just stumble on because uh I have in my my audio editor software *01:04:00* a bunch of tracks of of uh interviews of sound clips and I'll just start like putting music in there. *01:04:11* I have a big library of original music that has already been made for the show. *01:04:20* occasionally I'll make something else, but uh in this in this case and in a lot, I'll just sort of lay something under and I'll be like, oh, that's actually gotta *01:04:25* That's actually got like a musical quality or or or like in the story you're talking about, there's a there's a moment where I used a clip uh from *01:04:35* a um a stream uh uh of what is it games done quick it's uh it's like kind of an online streaming show where people do speed runs *01:04:44* Yeah. *01:04:56* Um and I think it's actually for charity. *01:04:56* People are donating money and it goes to child's play or something. *01:04:58* They they do it twice a year. *01:05:02* Uh for the Prevent Cancer Foundation and then um *01:05:04* Um blinkin' on they do two charities, but yeah, one in the summer and one in the winter. *01:05:09* And that's also where I first learned about blind speedruns. *01:05:13* The uh Zelda speedrunner did Ocarina of Time, which *01:05:16* Yeah, that's wild. *01:05:22* I mean, I remember reading about that, but it wasn't that guy actually blind? *01:05:23* Like there was an act of a guy who was really blind who had done yes. *01:05:27* So that that person was in touch *01:05:31* the speedrunners helped develop strategies to help that person uh beat the whole game. *01:05:34* So then the speedrunner then took that to GDQ. *01:05:40* as like a showcase and also raised more money for charity. *01:05:43* But yeah. *01:05:46* So the speedrunners helped this person uh who is blind beat Ocarina of Time. *01:05:47* Yeah. *01:05:53* Well, so I got this clip just as an introduction to the person I was talking to, Bubzia, the speedrunner, and he's got the the guy who's running the stream, the game's done quick stream. *01:05:53* He's got a great broadcast voice and he's up there like with this big voice and he says something where he's like, Today you know, I like to I I always like to show you something *01:06:04* uh that you've never seen before. *01:06:13* But today you're gonna get to see something that the runner isn't even gonna get to see at all. *01:06:15* And there was something about the rhythm of his words as I was just listening to this thing and the thing *01:06:20* Where I was just like, oh you could loop this and it would be a perfect uh it would be a perfect rhythm, you know, isn't even gonna get to see at all. *01:06:25* Isn't it and and then I just started playing around with that. *01:06:33* But it's usually *01:06:36* You know, I like to think of music as an act of listening as opposed to composition. *01:06:38* Like if you if you really want to make something *01:06:44* Or for me, if I really want to make something that I that I will end up liking, it's gonna be because I've I've been listening to myself goof around and *01:06:47* And like, oh I like I like this thing. *01:06:57* What else can I find in it? *01:06:59* And and that was really a moment of just discovering music in the speech of a person, you know? *01:07:00* So do you consider a life well wasted to I wrote it as like to be I Come to Shane High's sixth album, because you and your bandmate have made the music for the show. *01:07:07* over the years and like you said you have a library. *01:07:19* Is this kind of like the sixth album or did you uh you know, I I don't think that um Sam, the other guy in the band, would see it that way. *01:07:21* Okay. *01:07:30* Uh you know, it's really um *01:07:30* So when I first started making the the record I mean when I first started making the podcast, uh he and I were were working on our first album together. *01:07:34* And um we had some cast off material that I that I was playing around with. *01:07:44* Um and I used the name because it was us *01:07:51* playing that stuff and because I you know, it was just another way for people to hear that I made music and, you know, you should check out what what we were making. *01:07:55* And then after I started, you know, in on the series more and was going out of my way to make music, I used to get him to come into the studio because *01:08:03* Um like I'm not I I I have a musical education now, but at that time I I really um I was like a primitive. *01:08:13* I I I I I can play a lot of things, but I I play by ear. *01:08:22* He went to Berkeley and he's like a little music ideas generator. *01:08:26* And so I could just bring him in and be like, Sam, like play me some melodies. *01:08:31* Just like bling blip blip, you know, or I need something that sounds western. *01:08:35* Blub blah blah bla you know *01:08:39* he could help me sort of come up with things very quickly and we we would work in a way that was very um opposite from how we work on on our music for our albums, which would be to just like *01:08:40* destroy ourselves trying to make and remake things, uh always constantly rearranging and rewriting, kind of perfectionist stuff. *01:08:54* Whereas when I would make music with him for the show, it was really like, Hey man, we got like thirty minutes. *01:09:05* Let's let's like knock some stuff out. *01:09:10* And I and I ended up liking a lot of that stuff and so it became a a library. *01:09:12* I would say that there are three *01:09:15* kinds of music that are in um a life will wasted. *01:09:17* There's there's the cast off B-side material of of I Come to Shanghai that never made it into anything. *01:09:19* There's stuff that I asked him to help me uh write for the show, and then there's stuff that I wrote on my own for the show. *01:09:26* And I just use the name. *01:09:34* I mean *01:09:35* Honestly, we're not really in contact with each other. *01:09:36* Um, so yeah, it's not really *01:09:46* uh I come to Shanghai at this point, but if it uses anything that I made with him, I'm just gonna keep using that name, you know? *01:09:49* Yeah. *01:09:57* But like I'm making music, original music for this new series *01:09:57* Um and it's just me, you know, I'm not gonna be able to do that. *01:10:01* Yeah. *01:10:05* Or if you have your own solo *01:10:06* Do musicians come up with their own names like a show? *01:10:10* They do, yeah, sure. *01:10:12* I mean that that happens pretty often. *01:10:14* What about like uh wise blood pop pops into my mind? *01:10:16* Like *01:10:20* She was making solo records but calling herself variations on that name for a while. *01:10:20* Okay. *01:10:25* Um but yeah, I I'll just keep my name in this case, especially since, you know, kinda hoping *01:10:26* to attract some clients for uh making music for other things, you know? *01:10:33* Yeah. *01:10:38* So you have the ear that I certainly don't have, so *01:10:39* Well yeah, well I we'll we'll we'll see. *01:10:43* I I'm I'm I'm happy to be working on on new stuff and y we've already like we we are working with a production company. *01:10:45* It's like a serious thing. *01:10:55* So big big thing. *01:10:56* Uh yeah. *01:10:57* Very cool. *01:10:59* I wanted to ask you what what does it feel like to be *01:11:00* entrust it with telling other people's stories. *01:11:06* You know, I think after the first couple episodes, you know, you put calls to action out of if you've heard anything, you know, let me know or tell me your story. *01:11:09* And then you fire things at GDC and stuff and so people come to you and they they open up and they they just tell you these stories and I don't *01:11:18* I don't know if these people tell these stories other places. *01:11:26* I mean, like Jonah Falcon, of course, he told everyone. *01:11:28* Um but you know, like the the King's Quest story, I don't I hadn't heard that before. *01:11:31* So what is it *01:11:36* F to feel like to be entrusted to to tell those stories. *01:11:38* Well, so when you were asking earlier why I finally finished that last year, I think a lot of people would have *01:11:43* I w would have given up on an episode of a podcast that took eight years to make or however long it took to make. *01:11:50* But part of my feeling about *01:11:56* needing to finish it was that they had entrusted me with that King's Quest story. *01:11:58* It was r you know, great interviews. *01:12:03* No one had really told that story before and they had given that to me and I needed to like *01:12:05* get it across the finish line. *01:12:12* And uh and so yeah, there's some responsibility that I feel when someone especially when someone tells me like a a great story that *01:12:14* you know, someone who was uh i any like journalist worth their salt could turn into something worth reading or listening to. *01:12:22* I feel like I need to do it. *01:12:30* Um I I also at the same time though I collect a ton of material and sometimes well not sometimes I would say like sixty percent of the material I collect doesn't end up going anywhere. *01:12:32* and I feel a little bit bad about it, but you know, people like to talk for the most part um and get a lot out of just having a conversation um and someone who's interested in in hearing them talk. *01:12:44* Uh I've had instances of interviewing people where, you know, when the interview was over, they couldn't stop. *01:12:59* Like uh that that King's Quest interview *01:13:06* Um I'm trying to remember the second the second guy. *01:13:09* So not Brian Gibson, but his friend *01:13:15* Gosh, I cannot remember his first name right now. *01:13:19* Not the not the Bloomberg reporter in China, but the other guy. *01:13:21* Anyway, um when when we did those recordings, it was *01:13:26* During that GDC period we had gone to Oakland and we were recording at a friend of mine's house um and just hanging out and drinking beers. *01:13:30* And afterwards he had l really enjoyed *01:13:37* you know, the interview so much that he heard that that we were going to see a a show that night, um at a space in Emoryville and he went to the show and then started like *01:13:40* chatting me up, uh like telling me more and more of his personal story at the show and I had to like flee. *01:13:51* I was uh you know people like people like to people like to talk um *01:13:58* And sometimes they just need someone to talk to and I'm happy to be that but just not, you know All the time. *01:14:04* After after it's done, you know. *01:14:09* Yeah, I but it's it's great to I I I love the feeling of getting someone to open up. *01:14:11* I I have strong memories of um Jerry Ellsworth. *01:14:18* who um is an engineer and a really interesting person. *01:14:23* She um worked at Valve for *01:14:28* a while on their augmented reality project. *01:14:32* Like Valve had VR and AR projects. *01:14:35* Okay. *01:14:38* And and when they chose to go with the VR project instead of the AR project, they actually gave her *01:14:39* all of her work and let her walk away with with her um AR project, which is it called Tilt Five, or am I confusing that? *01:14:45* Um it's you they have this like AR um glasses system for really for playing tabletop games *01:14:56* Tilt five, yeah. *01:15:05* Tilt five. *01:15:07* It's really cool. *01:15:07* I I love the idea of augmented reality board games. *01:15:08* Yeah. *01:15:13* Okay. *01:15:14* No, but um she's just a really interesting person and had a had a had a wild childhood, built her own race car. *01:15:15* Just a kind of a genius engineer. *01:15:22* She owns an electron microscope, has a huge pinball collection. *01:15:25* This lady from the show. *01:15:29* Yeah. *01:15:31* Yeah, yeah, no. *01:15:31* So I but I remember I w I I interviewed her because I went to a maker fair in the South Bay *01:15:32* And she was speaking there and afterwards after I saw her speak and I was like, Oh she this is really interesting. *01:15:39* Um, there were there were like a couple of *01:15:45* little girls like waiting to talk to her afterwards who were, you know, also really into making stuff and were kind of inspired by her and I thought she was really cool *01:15:48* She was really shy. *01:15:55* We went to talk and I needed a quiet place. *01:15:57* We went and sat in the front seat of my wife's Jeep Cherokee *01:16:00* Okay. *01:16:05* Um and we had the conversation like in that way. *01:16:06* Have you ever had a conversation in a car where you have like a deep conversation and it's somehow enhanced by the fact that you're not making eye contact? *01:16:10* Yes. *01:16:17* Like you're just looking out the windshield. *01:16:17* It was that kind of situation where I don't think I would have gotten her to be as personal if we hadn't been in a situation where we were just staring straight out the window *01:16:20* And I just lucked into it and and I was grateful for her for being able to talk to me in that personal way 'cause I I was a total stranger. *01:16:30* I don't you know, I don't know uh what it takes for people to open up in that way. *01:16:38* But I try I try to make that *01:16:42* happen. *01:16:44* Um and that's why I have such a strong uh preference for in-person interviews, you know. *01:16:45* Yeah, there's always something *01:16:51* It's different being in person. *01:16:54* Like, you know, we're having a a call a video call now, but our conversation would be entirely different if we were together in a space and could play off each other in *01:16:56* In real sp I don't know, in real life. *01:17:07* It feels weird to say that. *01:17:09* But it's just that it is different. *01:17:11* And I I think *01:17:14* It's different. *01:17:16* I think peop people have gotten better at it though. *01:17:17* And so I've been doing a lot of Zoom interviews lately because that's just the reality of living in Norman, Oklahoma, is that I don't have a lot of *01:17:27* in person opportunities unless I fly to them. *01:17:36* And I I'm willing to do that for some things, but I I just you know, I gotta wait for the right thing. *01:17:39* Um and I you know, I've gotten some pretty good material from from that, um, better than the Skype stuff that I *01:17:43* that I did in the past, I would say. *01:17:51* Yeah. *01:17:53* Yeah. *01:17:53* Some people have learned video call etiquette, I would think. *01:17:56* Not everyone, but *01:18:00* Yeah. *01:18:02* It's a little bit it's a little bit more like um more like the real life *01:18:05* situation, especially because people can't be distractedly like clicking around the internet or looking at their phones or doing whatever. *01:18:10* Although sometimes that can be a help. *01:18:18* I don't know. *01:18:20* Um I in that new episode um where it's the Soviet arcade games it ends with an interview with this guy Roman Murdov *01:18:21* who um was kind of a skeptic about Russian arcade games. *01:18:28* He didn't think that stuff was very good and he and he he had the the uh the dendi instead. *01:18:32* That's what he grew up with. *01:18:37* But that entire conversation, um, he was doing his dishes during part of it, which was kind of a sound nightmare that I had to take care of. *01:18:38* But *01:18:46* He was you know, he was kind of distracted and and he was hard to get to speak personally, but I did get him to tell that story about getting lost in the line at the first Moscow McDonald's. *01:18:47* Yeah. *01:18:58* Which I I've was a real win because I was like, oh, this guy's not gonna be personal at all. *01:18:59* Um but yeah, I dragged that out of him and I think it happened while he was doing the dishes *01:19:03* Yeah, yeah. *01:19:11* I can only imagine the the raw sound of that. *01:19:12* That would have been something. *01:19:17* Uh *01:19:19* To to wrap up the life well wasted discussion, you you asked a question in episode two *01:19:20* to the and I'm forgetting the gentleman's name, but he owned the Pinball Museum. *01:19:28* Yeah. *01:19:34* Lucky Juju. *01:19:34* Lucky Juju Alameda. *01:19:36* Yeah. *01:19:38* Alameda is a little island. *01:19:38* in the East Bay, um connected with a bridge. *01:19:40* Okay. *01:19:44* And it's very like it's the Americana area of of the East Bay, I would say. *01:19:44* There's something that just feels like *01:19:50* It's never gonna get out of the nineteen fifties. *01:19:52* And some of it may be that the cops are incredibly aggressive and horrible in Alameda. *01:19:54* And so they like, you know, really keep people out of there. *01:20:01* Um *01:20:05* uh un unwanteds, I suppose. *01:20:06* Um, but uh i it's an amazing uh pinball collection and that since I did that interview I've been back there and *01:20:08* They've got like three times as much space and it's it's a wild I when when I did the interview you used to be able to just pay ten bucks and bring your own six pack in there and they have like cup holders on the pinball machines. *01:20:16* They don't do that anymore. *01:20:28* Uh-huh. *01:20:29* That guy was fun. *01:20:33* Yeah. *01:20:35* But what were you what were you saying? *01:20:36* You asked? *01:20:37* No. *01:20:39* I there's a pinball arcade at the bowling alley actually down the street and you're *01:20:39* You have a pinball theme kind of throughout a life while wasted. *01:20:43* This kind of made me want to go check out the pinball arcade and go play. *01:20:46* It's been so long since I've played a real table, you know. *01:20:50* Yeah. *01:20:54* But you asked him *01:20:55* Could you walk away? *01:20:57* And I wanted to ask you th the same question. *01:20:58* You know, a life while wasted's been around for *01:21:01* over a decade, eight up eight episodes, you're working on another one. *01:21:05* Could you ever walk away? *01:21:09* Uh I don't know. *01:21:14* I like I guess if I if I walked away it would be because I found what I was working on in a life all wasted and another *01:21:15* form and I was doing that instead. *01:21:26* I definitely know that um I do a lot of things, I have a lot of interests, but radio is where *01:21:28* I work best as far as like if I'm gonna have a creative job of some kind, like radio is definitely the thing that I would like to do. *01:21:36* Like if you gotta if you gotta work, right? *01:21:45* And I enjoy it, um, and I especially enjoy doing it in a way where I get like all this creative freedom to try and experiment and and play with the form because I think *01:21:47* We live in actually a like a super radio dominated time. *01:21:59* People don't really think about it, but there's a lot of time that people spend listening to just *01:22:04* Audio. *01:22:09* Um you wouldn't you wouldn't think it since we have so much visual me media, but we also just hate to think. *01:22:10* ever uh or to like have time to ourselves. *01:22:17* So people are cramming in um all kinds of uh audio content when they're driving or cleaning or walking or running or whatever whatever it is they're doing *01:22:20* And and I I actually think there's a lot of creative room out there to play with with what radio can be and and because it got so quickly eaten up by, you know, sort of *01:22:31* corporate interests uh and and and turned immediately into a a f form that uh feels like unshakable *01:22:44* I I don't think people are like thinking of what all you could do with it. *01:22:53* I mean you can make very surprising and weird radio that could be very entertaining or cool. *01:22:57* I mean it could also be really annoying. *01:23:02* I I don't know, but I wanna play with that. *01:23:04* I wanna I wanna f *01:23:06* I want to enjoy like creating in that space. *01:23:08* So a life well wasted to me right now is where I feel total freedom. *01:23:10* I can do whatever the fuck I want with it. *01:23:16* There's no one to tell me that *01:23:18* That's not allowed. *01:23:21* And uh and the audience is super supportive and I I was blown away that there were so many people who stuck around *01:23:22* um who had kept it uh subscribed even, but also people who like once they found out about it were hyped for *01:23:30* to hear a new one. *01:23:38* I I kinda worried that the reaction would be like one episode after nine years, you know, but really people were just very uh happy about it and that and that was awesome. *01:23:39* I you know *01:23:49* And I I do a lot of creative things that don't get a lot of outlet. *01:23:50* It's nice to have an audience and I appreciate an audience. *01:23:54* So I'm I'm definitely gonna try to keep putting work in where there's an audience. *01:23:58* It's not gonna stop me from *01:24:02* doing things that don't have an audience like making music. *01:24:05* Uh you know, not that there's no audience for that. *01:24:07* I but I d it's not like as big of an audience for me as as the podcast thing. *01:24:10* Right. *01:24:16* So yeah. *01:24:16* You know, before we wrap up, I did um, you know, video game podcast or internet radio show. *01:24:17* Uh it's not the only thing you do. *01:24:24* You you cook a lot. *01:24:26* You *01:24:27* make lots of food. *01:24:28* It seems like you uh got you update everyone actually in the memory episode. *01:24:29* You're like you learned everything about bread making. *01:24:34* So and I think a lot of people probably got into bread making during the pandemic because they're like, well, I'm home. *01:24:36* What if I have time, I guess, now to have a sourdough starter and keep it alive. *01:24:42* I was um *01:24:46* I guess I'm I'm just curious about your bread making stuff because like I did that too for a bit and then we went away on a trip and my sourdough starter died. *01:24:48* Rest in peace and I just haven't, I guess, built up the uh *01:24:56* the gumption to like restart that. *01:25:01* Keep it away what's breadmaking. *01:25:03* Yeah. *01:25:11* Um, 'cause I'm cool. *01:25:12* Yeah, you are cool. *01:25:13* No, I got into it because we moved to Oklahoma and where we were living previously there was a like a good bakery that I I relied on there for *01:25:16* for good bread and we got here and there was just nothing. *01:25:26* Uh I was I was eating like ciabatta from the sprouts and I think I I've had that before. *01:25:29* Um *01:25:35* Yeah, I well we were eating it like you know for half a year and at some point I was just like as God is my witness I will never eat sprouts chiabata again, you know, like I I gotta learn to make bread and so *01:25:36* Um I just fumbled around for like the right the right book. *01:25:49* I'm I'm kind of a cookbook person more than an internet uh recipe person. *01:25:53* It's too ephemeral for me. *01:25:58* I need like a *01:25:59* I need not just a recipe but more like a philosophy. *01:26:00* I like to know people's outlook on cooking. *01:26:04* That stuff is interesting to me and important for getting me into it, I guess. *01:26:07* And so I yeah, I I uh I got really into the Ken Forkish uh salt flour *01:26:13* Water yeast. *01:26:21* I can't remember the n order of those words, but it's you know, it was right after uh salt fat acid heat *01:26:22* came out and I think book marketers were like, all the books gotta be four words with commas. *01:26:28* Uh and but but it's a fantastic bread baking book. *01:26:34* I mean there are many *01:26:38* that people rely on. *01:26:39* The tartine book is also um uh uh famously a good a good one to learn from but I I started using using that guy's methods and then got a textbook *01:26:40* that I liked about bread. *01:26:52* Um that was really like a like a college textbook about bread baking. *01:26:54* Uh and just got really nerdy about it and *01:26:59* Yeah, now uh for for m maybe like four years now, I've I've I've made all of the bread for my family that we eat. *01:27:02* I I make I make sourdough, two loaves of it, like every five days. *01:27:10* And my kids really like um like a white bread, sandwich bread kind of thing. *01:27:15* And I do a pond de mi or or pullman loaf, like a *01:27:20* square pin with a lid on it that makes perfectly square long loaves. *01:27:24* Yeah. *01:27:28* Uh of of bread that has, you know *01:27:29* lots of butter and some sugar in it, which is what my kids like, uh undoubtedly. *01:27:31* Um they they'll they'll eat they'll eat the sourdough too, but they're always dying for the *01:27:37* for the the pure white bread with sugar and butter. *01:27:42* Um delicious. *01:27:45* And yeah, yeah. *01:27:46* No, it's just like one of the things I got into and and pizza *01:27:47* pizza making. *01:27:51* I just I I'm a big nerd and I I get really into whatever it is that I that I'm passionate about and I'll end up learning stuff and I I've been cooking *01:27:52* my whole adult not adult life, my whole life that I can remember really. *01:28:02* I mean I have so many memories of I I was a a latch key kid when I was young *01:28:06* like a very young latchkey kid. *01:28:12* I was a latchkey kid in first grade and would come home to the house by myself and make a snack. *01:28:14* And I very early, like too early, started using the stove and did some really *01:28:21* dumb things. *01:28:27* I remember watching um there was a PBS there was a PBS cooking show for a long time called Yan Can Cook. *01:28:27* It was a like a my first experience of like Chinese cooking. *01:28:34* demonstrated on TV and I I love to watch it and I'd never eaten any of the stuff that he was making but I remember one day I watched him make egg drop soup and I was like this I can do and so *01:28:39* I was probably in fifth grade and I took out a pot that had ru that had plastic handles, like a stock pot or a soup pot *01:28:51* Um, and I put in, you know, like water and a celery and some onion. *01:28:59* I don't know if I chopped it. *01:29:05* I didn't follow the directions. *01:29:07* I had not yet learned to follow a recipe. *01:29:08* I did know that you needed to put an egg in it. *01:29:11* So I put an egg in it. *01:29:13* And then I don't know where I got this, but I turned on the broiler. *01:29:15* And I put the soup with the plastic handles, the soup pot with the plastic handles, under the broiler, which then caused the handles to melt onto the floor of the *01:29:20* oven and it was a horrible um yeah, terrible stuff. *01:29:31* Um I I also around the same time tried to skip the process of putting a grilled cheese sandwich on a plate *01:29:37* because I didn't like to wash dishes. *01:29:45* I was like, why would I use a plate when that's already in a pan? *01:29:47* And so I brought the grilled cheese sandwich in a pan and sat down in front of the TV to watch cartoons. *01:29:51* and just sat the pan down on the carpet right in front of the TV and after I was done eating I went to pull it up and was like, oh it stuck. *01:29:56* And I pull it up and there's just a big black circle. *01:30:04* on the rental house apart, you know, carpet right in front of the TV. *01:30:07* And we just had that for like a year afterwards until we left that house. *01:30:12* Uh I'm sure my mom was pissed, but Oh my gosh. *01:30:17* That I don't I don't have quite a story like that. *01:30:21* I do remember I came home from *01:30:23* I guess it would have been kindergarten, because I was riding the bus and we lived in Ohio. *01:30:26* And I came home, I guess my mom was out running errands with my brother and the door front door was locked, but the back door was open. *01:30:30* So I just went through the back door. *01:30:36* And I got on a chair and opened the freezer and got out mint chocolate chip ice cream and just sat on the floor and scooped a bowl for me and scooped a bowl for the dog. *01:30:38* And we were both eating ice cream when she came home. *01:30:47* Um and I I've always been a cookbook person as well, actually. *01:30:51* I still *01:30:56* I'll find videos or whatever that it you know, or sh you know, chefs that I like, but then I usually end up just buying their books and reading those and being inspired. *01:30:57* I I feel like *01:31:06* At least I'll say like Maddie Matheson as an example. *01:31:08* I feel like he's more honest and vulnerable in his cookbook about his life story alongside the like why he makes the food he makes and how he makes it *01:31:12* than he would be in a video, 'cause Maddie especially has like a personality that just comes through in every video. *01:31:21* But his books are so *01:31:28* I think more the actual Maddie that you would get to know. *01:31:30* My mom, ironically, the other day sent me a picture from I have no idea when. *01:31:33* I don't know the date on this, but I'm a tiny person. *01:31:38* And I have like Cooking Rocks by Rachel Ray, 30-minute meals for kids. *01:31:40* So like that's where the cookbook obsession started. *01:31:45* And I I would flip through my mom's like Nigella Lawson uh *01:31:47* dessert cookbook. *01:31:51* I still remember the pi I can pull up the pictures in my mind's eye because that's what I was looking at then was pictures, not really the words. *01:31:53* But I love a book and I collect even if I find a recipe in a video, I'll find the written version of it and use that instead than the video and like read and learn from that. *01:32:00* And sometimes that that's actually like a mistake. *01:32:12* I mean I've made uh I because I do that too. *01:32:15* Like uh but for example, um I went through a period of um *01:32:18* nerding out about Korean food and and in in English the your your like best hope at having any kind of like success is mong qi. *01:32:23* Um, who is this um awesome I think she might be fifty by now, year old, a Korean lady who lives in Canada. *01:32:33* and who started making cookbook videos, like really cute um not cookbook videos, uh really cute cooking videos on YouTube of her making, you know, awesome Korean food. *01:32:42* And she became super popular and became like the kind of authority on on Korean cooking in English. *01:32:52* Um *01:32:59* o kind of overnight, but she got a book deal and and I you know, I'd made a few of her video things before and I got the book and just dedicated myself to it. *01:33:00* But I discovered that the book just really didn't have the best versions of the recipes. *01:33:09* Like 'cause she was updating her *01:33:15* web recipes over time based on audience um like feedback. *01:33:18* Sure. *01:33:24* And there were just some things that that *01:33:25* really uh were better to rely on the internet for in that way. *01:33:28* And I I worry that that's where we're going with cookbooks because cookbooks have become more of like a *01:33:32* record, uh like a like a like a vinyl record that you hang on your wall or something. *01:33:38* You buy the cookbook because you like this person. *01:33:43* Yeah, yeah. *01:33:46* Instead of being just a a really useful thing. *01:33:47* I mean, th there are great cookbooks out there, but I run into just duds *01:33:50* um uh fairly regularly and I'm kind of in a in a um a rut where I don't really have a cookbook that I'm *01:33:55* too interested in. *01:34:04* I I am uh slowly, very, very, very slowly, especially given the price of ingredients and where I am in my um access to those ingredients. *01:34:05* um working through Mary Robin's pasta book. *01:34:15* I'm a big pasta guy. *01:34:18* I I I like years ago, maybe six or seven years ago, started a *01:34:19* a regular Saturday night where I would always make fresh pasta on Saturday night. *01:34:24* This book is incredibly like has awesome um *01:34:28* elaborate recipes, but it's I you gotta start cooking at like two o'clock on a Saturday if you're gonna yeah have dinner on the table by six thirty. *01:34:34* Um and yeah, and like I said, the ingredients can be pretty expensive, but I'm I'm slowly making my *01:34:42* my way through that. *01:34:48* Um and and other than that, I I'm I'm I'm kind of lately because especially 'cause I'm getting other work done and and f *01:34:49* cooking sometimes just becomes my creative outlet. *01:34:56* I'm I'm a little bit more in the just cooking for my family, trying to make good meals and not not um not getting too um obsessed at the moment *01:34:59* Yeah, well, uh your your video's a life well tasted, which is a perfect name. *01:35:10* I watched some of those just to prep for, you know, this week just to see what other stuff you're doing. *01:35:15* And uh th this week I'm making those wings because that sauce sounded delicious. *01:35:19* I've done the Kenji Lopez that that's how I make my wings at home. *01:35:24* But I was like, that sauce sounds pretty awesome. *01:35:28* So like that's this week. *01:35:30* And then yesterday my wife's like, I w I want a burger. *01:35:32* And I'm like, well, I'll buy because I don't have my own kimchi, but I was like, I'll buy some kimchi, I'll do the kimchi smash burger. *01:35:35* So like those the two that I watched have ended up those of those will be this week. *01:35:41* The kimchi smash burger is like a regular feature in our house because we do have kimchi always on hand. *01:35:46* Uh I haven't made the the wings in a while with that sauce. *01:35:53* That was a Yotam Oda Langi *01:35:56* um like sauce recipe from from like a a recipe for ribs that I just re repurposed and I love that sauce. *01:35:59* Just because I also I love those Mamethu hot mango pickles. *01:36:06* That that stuff, like I like I'll I I don't care. *01:36:12* I could eat doll every day of the week. *01:36:15* The most simple thing if I could just have, you know, a couple of scoops of of those things. *01:36:18* Uh just makes everything delicious. *01:36:23* It's so intense. *01:36:25* I'm I'm excited to try them when they show up this week. *01:36:26* I tried looking locally, couldn't find them, so *01:36:29* Yeah, I can't get them locally either. *01:36:32* I g I gotta order them from the internet. *01:36:34* That's my the power of the internet. *01:36:36* Well *01:36:39* Thank you so much, Robert, for your time today and just taking time to talk to me about your show and about a little bit about bread and some food. *01:36:40* Thank you so much. *01:36:48* Where I where I mean the people can find you online at alifewill waste it dot com. *01:36:50* You tweet occasionally it seems. *01:36:55* I don't I've I've left Twitter. *01:36:57* I don't really know what's happening over there. *01:36:59* Is there anywhere else people could find your stuff? *01:37:02* I'm on I'm on Twitter still. *01:37:05* I don't really use it that much lately. *01:37:07* Obviously the vibe is very, very bad at Twitter. *01:37:10* I've been there for ten years. *01:37:14* I can't quite quit it entirely, especially because I find that I have not just like I do have a lot of community connections there, but then also my audience is there, and so I'm not gonna like bail. *01:37:16* Uh I only left because I was addicted. *01:37:27* It just happens to coincide with Elon like burning the place to the ground. *01:37:30* Yeah. *01:37:34* I mean me too. *01:37:35* I have been addicted. *01:37:36* I was just like, I need uh *01:37:37* I use the kid as a healthy reset. *01:37:39* I was like, I don't want her to grow up thinking all I do is look at Twitter on my phone. *01:37:41* Like so I use I used Turtive. *01:37:46* So what do you look at on your phone instead now? *01:37:49* Probably too many YouTube videos and check Discord. *01:37:52* But I've been playing chess with my dad and my uncle, so that's been probably mentally more engaging than than Twitter. *01:37:56* Discord has been f filling a hole for me. *01:38:04* Yeah. *01:38:06* Oh yeah. *01:38:09* I need I need to go back to that place. *01:38:13* I it's a pure it's a pure time. *01:38:15* Yeah. *01:38:20* Well, uh yeah, so just uh Twitter and a lifewellwasted dot com, I guess uh I don't really have any other *01:38:21* Any other things. *01:38:27* I don't really use Facebook or anything. *01:38:28* No. *01:38:30* So you can find links to that in the show notes. *01:38:32* Um you can find myself at maxfrequency. *01:38:34* net and *01:38:37* You could follow me on Twitter at Max Roberts143, but all that happens there is tweets when articles and shows go up. *01:38:38* So uh the website's probably the best place to go. *01:38:44* You could also check out my other show, Chapter Select. *01:38:46* a seasonal podcast where we bounce back and forth between a series. *01:38:49* Right now season five is going on Resident Evil, so we're we're chipping away at that. *01:38:52* So you could go check that out. *01:38:56* But until next time, adios. *01:38:58* Thank you. *01:39:00* Thank you very much to Robert Ashley for joining me on the show. *01:39:07* I wanted to channel a little a life while wasted energy here and have a few clips that I couldn't fit into the show. *01:39:10* How are you? *01:39:19* Um all right, where are you where are you calling from? *01:39:20* Uh town called Oviedo, Florida, like ten minutes from UCF. *01:39:23* So basically Orlando. *01:39:27* Orlando, but you're on Central? *01:39:29* Is that No, y you I just look you're Oklahoma, so I just looked. *01:39:31* Oh, okay, okay. *01:39:34* For some reason I thought you said you were also on Central and I was like *01:39:35* Like what? *01:39:38* No. *01:39:39* Florida Central? *01:39:39* I do have some friends who I regularly talk to on Central. *01:39:41* So my brain my brain is always thinking an hour behind and then I've worked for people in California for *01:39:45* Oh gosh. *01:39:53* I guess over a decade now, so I'm always subtracting three hours from my time anyway. *01:39:54* Yeah, I mean I think the pandemic thing, like, got everyone talking at different times and yeah, now I'm pretty used to *01:39:59* I I just I I just always mess up overseas, but that's what Google's for. *01:40:07* That is what Google's for. *01:40:12* I had uh *01:40:13* Javid Sterrit, who he's made some YouTube videos like Good Blood is his name of his channel. *01:40:15* He did some Zelda analysis and a God of War video and stuff. *01:40:20* Anyway, he's in Australia. *01:40:23* And so that one was like he's a day ahead and there's like a sixteen hour difference. *01:40:24* And I was like, oh gosh, how do I I don't think I don't think the world should be that big. *01:40:28* I think we should do something about that. *01:40:33* It's too it's too too expansive. *01:40:35* There should not be people on other days. *01:40:37* Yeah, that's the part that really trips me up, you know. *01:40:40* Yeah. *01:40:43* What are they Australia gets games like *01:40:43* the day before us on like the app store or something. *01:40:48* I don't know. *01:40:51* It's weird. *01:40:51* Yeah, it used to be like New New New Zealand was the New Zealand was the launching place for iOS games back when *01:40:52* When iOS games were a big deal, when there was uh briefly an awesome culture around that stuff, and yeah, you would envy *01:41:00* New Zealand getting those games first and not realize that you should envy New Zealand for many other things. *01:41:08* Is there what Peter Jackson essentially just lives on a compound there just like walking around making movies *01:41:18* It's also like the default um like refuge in apocalyptic scenarios for billionaires, which tells you that it's like *01:41:26* you know, a safe spot, you know. *01:41:35* It doesn't feel doesn't feel like anywhere. *01:41:37* So it'll Peter Jackson and James Cameron *01:41:39* On their huge farms. *01:41:43* I ye I think that New Zealand is one of those places where you can buy um citizenship if you have if you have the money, and a lot of people have. *01:41:44* So yeah. *01:41:53* Interesting. *01:41:54* That that that's available in more countries than you would imagine. *01:41:55* You can you can if you have the money you can buy your way into it *01:41:59* Um I I do not have the money to buy my way into No, well you need to grind, man. *01:42:03* Get up earlier. *01:42:08* Uh four four AM feels pretty early. *01:42:09* Three, sorry. *01:42:13* Okay. *01:42:14* Three's real grinding. *01:42:16* Hell no, I'm not I don't grind. *01:42:17* Wait wait until wait until they VR that game and you realize that Nathan is is like popping the skulls of fifty people an hour. *01:42:21* He's the most famous mass murderer. *01:42:31* It's there's so much. *01:42:37* The the intro video to this the new one is like eight minutes long and it's the history of cars and the world. *01:42:38* You can find me on YouTube. *01:42:49* It's so good. *01:42:50* It's pretty early. *01:42:54* the world in cars as it can be. *01:42:58* There's actually a museum in the game, not just for cars, but a like you can look at the Michelin timeline. *01:42:59* And then beneath that is a timeline of the world back to what I mean, COVID-19 is on there. *01:43:07* Like Obama becoming president. *01:43:14* Like there are these historical landmark events. *01:43:17* And then above it is like, here's when Michelin invented this tire technology. *01:43:20* I want to see it up against like a Metal Gear solid timeline. *01:43:25* I want to match up the I wanna I wanna know the alternate history, the real history. *01:43:29* This is when Naked Snake dropped into the jungle. *01:43:35*