# [[MFP26 - “Mind-Boggling Effects” with Chris Johnston]] Transcript This transcription was completed on March 4, 2026 with the application MacWhisper on macOS. This was done automatically, without human input during the transcription process. The transcription used the Parakeet v3 model. My hope is that by offering this transcription – however accurate it may be done by a machine learning/AI – will help you, the listener. I’d love to offer full, proper transcription some day, but that is not feasible at this time. Thank you for listening and reading. I hope you enjoy the show and that this document was helpful. Enjoy. --- Hello everybody and welcome to the Max Frequency Podcast. *00:00* I'm your host, Max Roberts, and joining me this time, it's none other than Chris Johnston, aka C J aka *00:02* How does the Twitter handle go? *00:10* The dreadfully friendly pirate CJ. *00:12* CJ of Thieves. *00:15* So very, very good. *00:17* CJ, welcome to show. *00:18* Hey Max. *00:19* Uh great to be here. *00:20* Yeah, thanks for coming. *00:22* Thank you for joining me. *00:23* We, CJ, we met because you put out a little message. *00:25* You actually kind of broke the Discord rules a little bit. *00:30* Yes, I often do. *00:35* I do it a lot too. *00:36* It's a it's one of my community fears. *00:37* It's like I don't want to break the rules, I'm trying not to. *00:39* But *00:42* You asked the Relay FM community if anyone wanted to playtest a puzzle game. *00:43* Um, you know, you said you could get a gift card Amazon gift card and playtest, and it's for a Japanese developer or something. *00:50* Uh and I thought that sounded really interesting. *00:56* That was what? *00:58* That was back in twenty-one, April of twenty-one, COVID times. *00:59* And uh I took you up on that. *01:04* Turns out it was for a game, a little game called Humanity by THA and Enhance coming to PlayStation and PC. *01:07* Later this year, actually just about a month. *01:15* Monthish. *01:18* May May twenty twenty three. *01:19* Yes. *01:20* Ambiguous four weeks there. *01:21* We'll find out when *01:23* And then later I would do another playtest for you. *01:24* So I just wanted to say that up front for everybody. *01:27* Yeah. *01:29* Enhancer, you you have paid me before. *01:30* But *01:32* You're a really cool guy, and there's a lot more to talk about than just a cool puzzle game. *01:33* So uh I wanted to have you on the show for a long time, and I'm just excited to have you here. *01:38* Yeah, I'm excited to be here. *01:43* You know, you were the only person from the relay Discord to answer that call, which I was shocked by. *01:45* I was hoping that I here I'm on relay with like-minded people. *01:52* You know, someone has gotta put two and two together, puzzle game Japanese developer, and maybe like at least ask, well, what is the can I have some more information on this? *01:58* But no *02:08* You, Max Roberts, the only person from the Relay Discord to take me up on the offer. *02:09* Well I'm I'm honored. *02:15* I just uh all I saw really was this an upcoming puzzle game by an established Japanese viva developer for console and PC. *02:16* I was like, that sounds cool. *02:24* Like whatever it is, it just sounds cool. *02:26* And I've never play tested before, but I think because of COVID *02:28* it really sparked remote more remote playtesting I would think. *02:34* This uh what is that app called? *02:39* It's still on my computer in the game solder. *02:41* Parsec. *02:43* Parsec. *02:44* Seems to be pretty powerful. *02:45* Is that a common tool these days? *02:46* Yeah, uh a lot of people use Parsec for a lot of larger video game companies use it to give review copies to people or preview copies to people without actually giving them code. *02:49* Uh so you play it remotely and someone can't like data mine anything or like have an executable on their computer, so *03:03* Yeah, it's pr a pretty common tool for that. *03:10* But then also like a lot of the fighting game community use it for like to simulate local play. *03:13* That's another thing that does really well. *03:21* Like it it's pretty low latency, so it works pretty well. *03:23* And it works with like every controller imaginable. *03:27* So it's just a nice *03:30* Uh a nice tool. *03:32* Okay. *03:34* Yeah. *03:34* I've I enjoyed it. *03:35* It was a very cool process. *03:36* Uh but before before we talk about making and publishing and selling video games, I want to talk about a job you had. *03:37* Oh oh I don't mean to make you feel old, but EGM, Electronic Gaming Monthly, you used to work there for quite a while and you started it sounds like well, it doesn't sound like your LinkedIn says you started in the summer of ninety-four. *03:44* Uh that's when I was born, CJ. *03:58* Oh no! *04:01* Don't tell me that, Max, no. *04:02* I was born in June of 1994. *04:05* Which that made me feel old. *04:08* I don't know. *04:10* So I apologize to you, I guess, because I feel like gaming magazines were around like my whole life and I miss them greatly. *04:12* Never had the honor or privilege of working on any of them. *04:21* They were all kind of dead by the time I was old enough to even work. *04:24* But *04:28* You were there from 97 all the way to 2004. *04:30* So you're there for a solid run. *04:34* And I just kind of want to talk about that whole time there. *04:37* And I wanted to kick it off with *04:39* And so in June of 94, you were only there for three months. *04:42* I don't know if that was that an internship or just short-term gig? *04:45* Well, uh, it was a short-term thing. *04:49* So I was only 17 years old. *04:52* I had not graduated high school yet at that point. *04:55* So and that was actually something that EGM, I mean, E a lot of the people who worked at EGM were, you know, very, very young. *04:59* Uh so I was the youngest I think at the time, but it was fairly common to have people who were, you know, between 17 and 20 uh working. *05:07* So it wasn't an internship or anything. *05:18* I got hired in the summer and then when school started I attempted to work during the evenings. *05:19* Uh, and that didn't really work out too well in terms of my schoolwork and all that stuff, so I left at that time. *05:28* Okay *05:35* That explains June to October then. *05:35* Cause that's that summer school window. *05:37* I wanted to you worked on interface letters to the editor. *05:40* and uh the press start news. *05:45* And I wanted to, I told you before, I'm gonna try and share my screen with you. *05:47* Audio listeners, there will be links to this. *05:51* So you can go look at these uh these PDF cutouts, but *05:54* I've got, oh gosh. *05:59* This can you see the screen? *06:01* I can see it, yeah. *06:03* This is uh interface, letters to the editor. *06:05* So you designed the layout of this? *06:09* Uh not exactly. *06:12* Well, what was this what was this process like? *06:14* I mean there's just a bunch of letters and pictures and you can win a pair of acclaimed joysticks. *06:18* Yes, you could. *06:25* Letter of the month. *06:26* You can win wireless controllers for Super Nintendo or Genesis. *06:28* Yeah, what I would do here is, you know, we would get *06:32* snail mail, mm-hmm, uh letters, and they would be dumped in this big like post office bin *06:36* And I would go through them and read them and like separate out ones that I thought were good. *06:44* Any like envelope art or like interesting things or a psycho letter of the month. *06:51* You know, some somebody wrote some crazy thing, I would I would put that uh aside as well. *06:56* Envelope art was great fun, yeah, because people, some super talented *07:03* artists would uh would do envelope artwork and I would just kind of yeah set things aside and look through what we had and and put them in the layout the the layout itself *07:08* So Steve Harris, who who was the publisher of the magazine, would every year decide on what the r the look of the magazine should be. *07:20* So stuff like *07:29* the general layout in the background and stuff was all sort of predetermined. *07:30* But in s in terms of like the content that was there and screenshots that were placed, like I would have to wrangle all of those together. *07:34* and like the bad photocopy contest. *07:42* I would pick a page in the magazine and at this point the magazine wasn't published, so it was like proofs. *07:45* It was like a big sure eleven by seventeen kind of printout. *07:53* And I would just like photocopy those over and over and over again to uh to get the bad photocopy in there. *07:56* Uh but I had fun with it. *08:05* I it was uh *08:06* It was enjoyable because I had written letters to the editor before for EGM and I also had read the magazine for a long time, so I sort of *08:08* knew what I would want to read. *08:19* So I sort of selected letters based on that. *08:22* It's like what what discussions are sounding interesting here? *08:25* Like what can I reply with? *08:29* And back then, like it was pretty much I was I had a lot of autonomy to do this stuff. *08:32* Like we had an editor-in-chief, but there was basically no editorial direction on this stuff. *08:38* They didn't they really kind of didn't care what I said here. *08:46* Uh Ed Semrad was the editor-in-chief at the time, and I I'm not sure he read any of these very closely *08:52* Uh these are all your replies. *08:59* Yeah, I wrote all the replies, yeah. *09:02* Cause I'm I read some of them. *09:05* Uh but I didn't know who was, you know, responding or or whatnot. *09:07* But some of these are like they stand out to me now here that we're recording. *09:10* There's one about the duo, like *09:13* What a time capsule that is. *09:17* Like we're worried because it's dying. *09:19* Or the 2DO needs RPGs *09:22* And then S video cables for the Super Nintendo, like what a Whew, what a time capsule *09:26* I know. *09:33* A very different time. *09:35* Now we have 4K HDR displays and HDMI cables. *09:37* But back then it was like, should I use these RCA? *09:42* cables or should I get an S video cable? *09:45* Like S video cables are so expensive. *09:47* Yeah, I mean and even today *09:50* people are using retro upscalers and a with S video cables to get the best picture right on an HD TV. *09:53* It's some of the stuff hasn't gone away and then some stuff like the duo, or really the 3DO, I think even more so is *10:00* Just lost, totally lost of time. *10:08* That's true. *10:10* Yeah, and at the time I really liked the 3DO. *10:11* Yeah. *10:14* And so I I think I was maybe the only person on EGN that liked the 3DO *10:14* And so I would, you know, put letters about the 3DO and the Jaguar in uh just so I could say something about the 3DO or Jaguar and not have those ignored in the market in the market. *10:22* I like it. *10:34* Some of the some of the news later on, a portable 3DL was one of the news stories in this issue from Toshiba. *10:36* They were guests were talking about it. *10:44* Interesting. *10:46* We're seeing the PSX start to show up. *10:47* Sony's PSX is appearing. *10:49* Yeah. *10:51* I think that that issue, I was looking at it earlier. *10:52* And that has there's a meme image that I think is still around today that is from that issue. *10:56* So in I think it was Press Start, there is uh there's like two pages on the Saturn, there's like two pages on the PlayStation. *11:04* Yeah. *11:15* And there's a page where and by the way, all the images in in this section *11:16* were off of a videotape that Ed just like threw me a video. *11:23* He had gone he had gone to some Tokyo toy show or something. *11:28* And this was *11:32* a common occurrence where Ed, our editor-in-chief, would go to a show, collect materials and have footage, and just give it to an editor who didn't go to that show to write up. *11:33* So that was what happened here. *11:44* So all these images are screen grabs off of a videotape. *11:47* And *11:51* So you can see like the Saturn stuff, you can kind of see that it's taken off of a screen that was made of like *11:54* 15 different televisions, like CRTs, and uh there's a PlayStation article. *12:03* It's very similar, like off-TV footage. *12:10* And then there's a *12:13* A caption to one of the screens that says the PlayStation can produce mind-boggling effects. *12:14* And that's actually like a meme image I've seen people like *12:19* Post that image on Twitter and laugh at that caption, but that was that was something that I wrote and I had to do that because I I have to come up with a caption for this image. *12:23* Yeah. *12:34* And I I wasn't there at the show. *12:34* I didn't know anything about this. *12:36* I was just going off the literature and the visuals that I saw. *12:39* It's so crazy to think that that's how video game journalism and press happened. *12:44* Yeah. *12:52* In the pre Twitter sharing video calls, being able to go to shows streaming, all that stuff. *12:53* It's just *13:00* You're taking someone else's word for it or watching a videotape of something, and you're just like, I guess this is what it looks like, or this is what it'll be. *13:01* It's so fascinating. *13:11* And the literature in this case was in Japanese because it was a Japanese show. *13:14* So it wasn't like I had English material to go off of. *13:21* So it was *13:24* It was yeah, a little a little difficult. *13:26* A little bit. *13:29* I uh one one last thing is specifically from this article was *13:30* There's a new player in town, I guess, and it there was could be a new console from Fisher Price Hasbro Hasbro or Mattel. *13:36* It was a new system. *13:45* It would be 32-bit, CD-based, and come with a VR helmet and controller. *13:47* With a game for $4. *13:51* 99. *13:53* Which is I understand inflation would be absurd, but that's how much a VR headset costs today. *13:54* Well, that's true. *14:01* That is true. *14:02* So at least it's not too far off, but I can only imagine what five hundred *14:03* nineteen ninety four dollars is today. *14:07* It's probably Uh and I'll tell you what, you probably get sick playing that too. *14:10* The frame rate's probably like five frames a second if that. *14:14* So I remember Disney Quest down here in Florida, big arcade, like five stories, and they had a couple of really old school VR headsets, I mean, that stick out like *14:17* a foot and a half past your face, hung up suspended above your head, it'd be like Aladdin's magic carpet ride. *14:28* And that thing is not a stable frame rate at all. *14:34* And it's just *14:37* chunking around. *14:38* But at the time it was so cool. *14:39* There's also a lightsaber, although they didn't own Disney when that game was made, so it was, you know, not really a l or they didn't own Star Wars. *14:41* when that game was made. *14:48* So it wasn't a lightsaber, it was just like a laser sword or something. *14:49* Right. *14:52* And now I can play that in high fidelity in my living room. *14:53* It's crazy. *14:57* It's so so crazy. *14:58* So *15:00* These magazines which would just be mailed out to people, and that's really how news was disseminated amongst the masses. *15:02* And *15:10* You would end up becoming the news editor there over time. *15:12* That would be kind of your prominent role, as well as other things. *15:16* And so as kind of one of the most prominent sources, EGM was huge back in the day, was like the magazine. *15:21* I th *15:29* I would think Nintendo Power would also like in the the names of magazines that people would want, you know, EGM was toward the top with some of the review crew, Sushi X, all sorts of stuff. *15:29* Like it was *15:42* This was where everyone got their news and I'm just as the news editor w what was that like in picking out cause you you essentially got to help choose *15:44* what was being discussed, you know, like almost leading the conversation. *15:58* I know the companies would come out and say, well, here's our new PlayStation or here's our new 3D Zelda or *16:04* whatever and that would demand attention, but you almost in a way got to you I don't know, you help people make Christmas lists Christmas lists *16:10* I mean you shaped a lot of people's knowledge of the industry. *16:21* during the whole time. *16:31* Like uh *16:36* I thought of it more of just a natural extension of what I loved to do, and I was a voracious reader of video game magazines, and *16:38* Uh so when I was put in the position of then making that content, I just did what I thought people would want to read about. *16:50* And *16:57* what was interesting to me and also like what we had information on, right? *16:58* Like yeah. *17:02* What what uh what aspects of the industry am I curious about? *17:03* Is it VR, is it online gaming? *17:07* Is it like the Dreamcast has died? *17:10* Uh and what I would want to know knowing that or like Metroid Prime being in development hell. *17:13* Um that was a big thing. *17:22* Isn't it and it's crazy, it just came back out. *17:25* They just remastered it. *17:28* Same studio, not same team, but *17:29* Same studio, yeah. *17:32* And then I was extremely lucky being the news editor because then I also got to interview a lot of *17:33* industry figures that, you know, I'd grown up playing their games or uh was interested in talking with them like Howard Lincoln and Nintendo or uh *17:41* you know, cause her eye with Sony and uh Bernie Stoller with Sega. *17:53* Uh so *17:59* It was a little bit surreal sometimes going to E3, which unfortunately E3 got is canceled now, so it's it's it's sad officially. *18:02* E3. *18:13* Poor E3. *18:14* I can't disassociate just calling summer video game news E3. *18:14* I'm sorry, Jeff Keeley, I'll never call it the Summer Games Fest. *18:19* It's E3 in my brain. *18:22* Yeah. *18:23* And man, what a sad *18:24* just sad state of affairs for that whole conference in general. *18:26* And just more I know. *18:30* Not necessarily the company per se, more just the *18:32* Everyone getting together at one place, one time, all the news coming out at once instead of a drip feed over the summer, like *18:35* I miss that type of energy, not the you know, because we'll get the news. *18:43* It's still gonna happen this year. *18:48* Xbox will do a thing, Sony might, Nintendo *18:50* Should. *18:54* But it'll all be separate and Jeff Keeley'll have his thing and I don't know. *18:55* I just miss the one time, one place, all or nothing. *18:59* Man, I do too, because *19:03* I when I was growing up reading video game magazines and I was growing up as part of the EGM staff too *19:06* Uh, but when I was just a reader, I used to love those July, August issues that had E3 news. *19:13* It was just like you get the full rundown of everything and it was just amazing and *19:20* I always dreamed of going to those shows and then when I was there I will I loved it. *19:27* I yes it was hard work and I know a lot of people maybe in video game *19:32* journalism circles or even in industry circles are kind of tap dancing on the grave of E3 and saying it's they're glad it's gone. *19:37* I I miss it. *19:45* Like I used to love that uh show. *19:47* And yeah, it's it's hard work, but totally rewarding to go from appointment to appointment and be running from hall to hall. *19:50* And like I've got *19:59* uh Miyamoto interview at this time and a Kojima interview at this time and a Yujinok interview at this time and it was just like that was kind of *20:02* Amazing to think about, right? *20:10* You wait, you actually interviewed those people? *20:12* I have actually interviewed those people. *20:14* Oh my gosh, that's nuts, man. *20:16* Yeah. *20:19* So crazy. *20:19* Or Aunuma or Itakaki, like all these people that I'm not sure. *20:21* That's not gonna hap. *20:25* They're not all gonna be in one place together anymore. *20:26* No, yeah, you're right. *20:28* You're right. *20:29* Ray I mean, those opportunities to interview those people still come up. *20:31* I'm sure Miyamoto actually probably is preparing for a press tour right now for the Super Mario movie. *20:34* Yeah. *20:40* And then onuma with Zelda here in in May as well. *20:41* So it's you know, they will be interviewed, but having Anunuma and Kojima and I can Shuheiushida and who else? *20:45* I don't know, Phil Spencer or *20:56* Who's before Phil Diamatric? *20:58* Um All in the same building, you know area. *21:00* Just *21:05* There's I think more chances and just interesting opportunities probably in discussions and I think you're right, although a lot of those interviews were like you have fifteen minutes. *21:05* Oh, the non-English speaker, there's time to translate to them and then translate back their answer, and then that that cuts everything in half. *21:18* And you know the press conferences, there's something about things being live. *21:30* I I understand why companies want to do these pre-recorded presentations at Nintendo *21:34* I frankly think of as one of the first major players in video games to do it with the the directs. *21:41* I wada direct to you. *21:47* And then Sony would go on with their state of plays and their presentations and now Xbox does it with *21:49* Whatever I forget what they call theirs. *21:56* And even Apple does it, you know, now because of COVID. *21:58* Like we'll never *22:02* We'll never get these live press events either where it's things can go wrong. *22:04* You know, Bruce Stray's uh playing Uncharted and Drake falls through the stage or *22:09* You know, Reggie saying my body is ready. *22:15* Like that would never I mean they did make fun with Reggie in the pre-recorded stuff too, but just these natural moments of *22:18* whatever would come out on stage is just we'll never get that kind of stuff again. *22:26* That's true, but I kind of think of that as *22:32* You know, ava as I've gotten older, you know, sometimes you hear old people say, like, Ah, these kids today don't know how good it was. *22:35* Back then. *22:44* But this is like saying this kind of thing about E3 and these press conferences is kind of similar. *22:45* It's like things are definitely always gonna change and you kind of have to *22:51* get on board with the change or be left behind by it, right? *22:58* Like and I actually really like some of the presentations now just because they can really cram a lot more information into a lot uh *23:02* a lot shorter runtime than they used to like. *23:13* I remember E3 press conferences, so before before they got broadcasted on over the internet *23:15* They were much more business focused. *23:22* And actually I think you can see some of them on YouTube now from like the late 90s, early 2000s, where there was a much more business focus and *23:24* They were slow. *23:34* Oh they were very slow. *23:36* And like some of the Sony conferences that would stretch into two hours, it would just be like, come on, like don't show me any any more sales graphs *23:38* I want to see trailers like that's that's what they used to be. *23:48* And yeah, like things can go wrong and that those are moments are always fun. *23:52* to see and they'll like hit this this crab in the red spot for massive damage, like that kind of thing. *23:57* Like can I think it still can happen with pre-recorded stuff, but uh *24:03* I actually kind of like it now that everybody is sort of shorter to the point and showing me exactly what I want to see the whole time instead of downtime. *24:09* That is fair. *24:18* That I d it's interesting. *24:19* And I imagine part of that is now being on the game developer side, you know, there's more opportunities for more games to be in there and you get to control your message. *24:21* Or I assume that relationship between the company presenting it and you as the develop, you know, there's conversation there of this is what we have, here's how it works. *24:31* So that's an interesting side of it. *24:40* Were you *24:43* Were you at E3 when Wind Waker was shown off? *24:44* That would have been 2002-ish, which is closest to the end of your *24:48* Time there. *24:53* Yeah, it was close to the end of my tenure, but yes, I was at E three. *24:54* Do you remember that blowback? *24:58* Oh yeah, the Toon Link stuff? *25:01* Yeah. *25:03* Oh, absolutely. *25:04* Yeah, because I had been at the GameCube and Game Boy Advance uh Space World show. *25:05* Okay. *25:13* uh before where they showed the realistic link, like the adult link Ganon fight that everybody got excited about and then when they were shown to Link, that really like *25:13* Killed everybody? *25:25* Uh it was yeah, I was I was at uh both of those uh showings. *25:26* Were you which side were you on back in the day? *25:32* Oh, I was on I was pro Zelda all the way. *25:35* In fact, like Zelda. *25:37* Yes. *25:39* Zelda. *25:40* In EGM *25:42* Like I think there's a page at the back of the magazine during that time where we talked about it and I was maybe one of the only pro Wind Waker visual editors. *25:44* Like I was *25:54* I was on board. *25:56* Like I said, yeah, you know, yeah, it's a different take on it, but it's so expressive and so different. *25:57* Like I can't wait to see what they do with it. *26:03* You know the game's gonna play well. *26:06* Like, let's trust that. *26:08* So and I I thought even at the time that the visuals on show were gonna look timeless. *26:10* And I think history has uh has shown that Wind Waker is still uh just sort of timeless in that visual department. *26:18* I I was looking to find that issue and I'll I'll do so later, but one thing was I guess people uh *26:29* People were reporting that Wind Waker was gonna be redone at the time with no cell-stated graphics. *26:36* Like that was a big rumor at the time and people were it's so funny. *26:42* Right. *26:46* Wind waker *26:46* And I mean eventually. *26:48* Why would you want that though? *26:49* Wow. *26:50* Eventually they get it. *26:51* Right. *26:52* With Twilight Princess, which would have been only a few years later at E3 2004, with mo I think one of probably the most famous E3 reactions ever of *26:52* the sound of grown men crying in the theater. *27:02* Which is I was there for that one too. *27:05* Were you there were you in the crowd? *27:07* I was there for that one. *27:08* Were you the one crying? *27:09* I was not crying, no. *27:11* I was a little bit further back from the front. *27:12* Okay. *27:15* But uh I do remember the reaction and it was huge because back then, yeah, people didn't like *27:16* Wind Waker's visuals, which I uh honestly I never understood because I always thought they were great. *27:24* But uh people really wanted that realistic link and they got it. *27:29* uh with Twilight Princess and they cheered for that and it was crazy to watch like everybody break out cheering *27:34* in a conference like that because generally speaking those E3 conferences they did have like a fan section they would invite some people either fans *27:42* or employees of the studio that would be the cheering section. *27:53* Yeah. *27:56* So that would happen, but at Nintendo *27:57* With that reveal, you got a genuine everybody on their feet cheering moment. *28:00* That you don't often get in those in those moments like there was one Xbox conference, the original Xbox, where s where Microsoft showed something *28:16* And there had been a section off to the right that was just Microsoft employees. *28:29* And at one point during their show *28:36* Only that section like clapped and cheered and hooted and hollered and it was like, what is happening? *28:38* Like nobody else is cheering. *28:45* Might the Microsoft section is is on their feet. *28:47* Yeah. *28:51* I'm picturing that. *28:54* I know you said original Xbox, but I'm just picturing that for the Xbox One D you know, entertainment, entertainment, entertainment. *28:55* No, I'm sure that happened at that point. *29:03* I'm sure there were *29:05* Microsoft employees in the crowd who were clapping. *29:06* I mean, that happens I think in any sort of corporate event, even Apple events. *29:09* So like Apple and Nintendo kind of get that natural cheering section so they don't have to worry about it too much. *29:13* But *29:19* Like every event has those plants that are like ready to hoot and holler. *29:20* Yeah. *29:25* So the issue when you joined full time for your your long tenure, that would have been issue one hundred, which is a pretty cool issue to like *29:26* be joining on. *29:34* It's uh you were the online editor alongside uh Helen Lee. *29:36* So you two were the online editors in November of ninety seven. *29:40* But as it was issue 100, it was a big celebration of like EGM's top 100 video games of all time. *29:43* So I went through that list because I thought that'd be an interesting time capsule of 1997. *29:51* So *29:55* I wrote down the top 10, some interesting notes though. *29:56* Simply and Knight was number 12, so I didn't even crack the top 10 *29:59* Which I think in hindsight's pretty interesting. *30:04* And Ocarine of Time wasn't even out yet. *30:06* Which is also just bizarre, cause *30:09* People loved I mean people love Ocarina of Time. *30:12* The top ten, according to EGM in November of nineteen ninety seven, number ten is Saturn Bomberman. *30:15* Yes. *30:24* I've I've to be fair, I've never played a Saturn or a Dreamcast. *30:24* It's a p it's a thing that I really wish I could get. *30:29* It's just so expensive these days. *30:32* And I just totally missed Sega as a kid. *30:35* So I I have no experience there. *30:37* But I did think it was interesting that the Saturn version of Bomberman made the cut. *30:38* Well, because it had like I think the Saturn version, if I remember right, had more players *30:43* You could play with more people uh than the previous versions of Bomberman. *30:49* Yeah. *30:55* Okay. *30:56* Then it was Final Fantasy III or Final Fantasy VI nowadays. *30:57* Seems to make sense. *31:02* Contra 3 Alien Wars was number 8. *31:03* Super Mario World 2, Yoshi's Island. *31:06* It's number seven. *31:10* Super Metroid at six. *31:11* Super Street or Street Fighter 2 Turbo Hyper Fighting. *31:13* Goodness gracious, Capcom. *31:17* Super Mario 64 at number 4. *31:18* Link to the past at number 3. *31:20* Mario Brothers 3 All-Star Edition was number two. *31:23* That's a weird one. *31:27* Yeah. *31:28* And then number one, Tetris. *31:29* I think Tetris I think Tetris is a good hold there. *31:33* I could I could see an argument for Tetris still being one of the greatest games of all time, which actually today is when the Tetris movie came out *31:37* Yeah, as we're talking. *31:47* As we are talking. *31:48* I kinda want to watch that one. *31:50* See what you now work at a company that developed one of the most iconic for sure Tetris games of all time. *31:52* Tetris effect. *32:01* It's kind of interesting full circle. *32:02* It is, yeah. *32:04* Isn't it crazy? *32:05* Still a thing, still a conversation. *32:07* That is crazy. *32:09* So many years later. *32:10* It's nuts. *32:11* Yeah, I think we're seeing more and more that some games are just timeless, right? *32:12* Yeah. *32:16* I don't think we thought that back. *32:17* in the nineties, uh honestly. *32:19* Like I think we there was a feeling that everything new was better than what came before. *32:22* Whereas now I think we're sort of looking back at some of the old games and saying, well this still plays great. *32:28* And that didn't happen so much in the late 90s. *32:34* Yeah. *32:38* You get a lot of reviews that are like, yeah, a few years ago this was great, but this remake of *32:39* Mario isn't isn't as good or whatever. *32:47* Like, I don't know. *32:49* You would you'd see a lot of that. *32:50* I actually remember this issue being produced. *32:52* Um *32:56* And the top 100 list was very contested. *32:58* Oh, I'm sure. *33:02* This was like a several weeks long process to come up with this list. *33:04* And we had a whiteboard where everything was positioned and we would have meetings where the editors would debate what goes where and *33:09* you know, kind of fight for your game, like what what you think should be at the top and what were you fighting for? *33:21* I don't remember what I was fighting for. *33:31* But I was a big you know, I was a big Nintendo kid in general. *33:34* And so like *33:38* Yes, Street Fighter 2 Turbo Hyperfighting was like my favorite version of Street Fighter 2, and so I pr would I would imagine I fought for *33:41* for that a little bit. *33:50* Like the I'm pretty happy with this top ten, to be honest, uh considering the time frame. *33:52* I mean it has absolute classics on it. *33:58* I th the Bomberman's really the only one to me that stands out as an *34:01* Especially with Symphony Knight two slots away. *34:05* Yeah. *34:09* But the rest I could I could see *34:12* still being talked about these I mean honestly we still talk about Super Metroid and Link to the Past, Super Mario 64 all the time. *34:14* I mean they're still in conversation. *34:23* And Tetris of course. *34:25* Um and Final Fantasy now on their 16th game. *34:27* It's crazy. *34:31* Yeah. *34:32* So let me see. *34:34* There was there's one more big EGM thing I gotta talk to you about. *34:38* If I don't, I would regret it forever *34:42* Twenty-one years ago, tomorrow, you you, sir, were yeah, to I think the chagrin of many uh Smash Brothers dreamers, hopers, players *34:46* You told them that Sonic was in Super Smash Bros. *34:59* melee in a clearly labeled April Fools section, I believe. *35:03* Uh but no one listened to it and everyone tried. *35:09* You you wrote the infamous Sonic and Tales in Melee. *35:14* I'm sending you a s a screenshot of your little thing. *35:19* Sir, I fell for this. *35:23* Me and my friends tried very hard. *35:25* I actually booted up my my uh mele save the other day. *35:27* What was I wrote it down? *35:32* My top. *35:34* My top on my copy was four. *35:36* I have a grand total of 14 killed in cruel melee. *35:39* Uh but holding four with one character, so I was nowhere close to your mythical twenty. *35:42* I wanna what was obviously this was just a joke at the time. *35:50* I'm just I'm curious how you feel about it going from this is funny to *35:55* it swelling into the rumor, you know, myth type thing that it was to eventually Sonic actually really mean in Smash Bros. *36:01* Yeah, like the this was the thing, so in the April issue we would come up with a joke. *36:11* and put it in uh the magazine. *36:19* And it was sort of a contest where if people found the joke, then they would win something. *36:22* I I forget what exactly, but *36:30* Uh and as a reader of EGM back in the day, like I loved those things. *36:33* They did something where like there was a hidden character in Street Fighter 2, but you had to do this ridiculous set of *36:37* the parameters to get him to appear, and then um Simon Belmont in teen in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles arcade game was one of the tricks. *36:43* And it was just like and they would make them *36:54* Uh those were like button combinations that you could just about do. *36:57* But not quite. *37:07* So it was like just out of reach for a normal gamer. *37:08* And I loved those. *37:13* I thought those are *37:15* Great fun. *37:16* And so when I was working there, I did a bunch of those. *37:17* And one was like, I don't know if you remember the Sega Neptune was a rumored *37:22* version of the Genesis that had the 32X uh hardware. *37:27* It was like an all-in-one. *37:32* Yeah. *37:33* And one year I did a *37:34* uh April Fool's joke that was we found a warehouse of Sega Neptunes and you're available for purchase online and I uh I bought a domain *37:37* for it and set up a webpage. *37:51* Uh it's not online anymore. *37:53* What was it like do you remember the domain? *37:55* I don't remember. *37:58* Oh my gosh. *37:59* Now I gotta find it. *37:59* Now I gotta find that. *38:00* It was probably it was probably so obvious. *38:02* I don't even think it was like probably my ISP URL at the time. *38:06* So it's *38:10* Something something really bad. *38:12* But uh and I would I for that one on the webpage I put the accounter on it and like those internet *38:14* visitors counters that web pages used to have and it would play it was Segandeptune. *38:24* com. *38:29* Oh there we go. *38:30* Okay. *38:30* It would play a sound clip from Spaceballs, the uh one where Rick Moranis says fool to *38:31* When you pr actually press the buy button, you would go to a page that told you how many people had been fooled. *38:38* And that was great fun. *38:45* And I love that kind of thing. *38:48* So the Smash Brothers trick, it was at a time where Sega was going third party. *38:50* That was news already. *38:56* And *38:58* Smash Brothers was coming out on the GameCube and it was one of the biggest releases and *38:59* We did this section in the back of the magazine where we would highlight tricks and strategies for a specific game. *39:07* So Smash Brothers was one of those, Halo was one of those. *39:15* uh like the big games that people would continue playing after they came out. *39:18* So when it came to April it was like, oh right, well we have to do something *39:23* with Smash Brothers because that just makes sense. *39:28* And what fighters could we put in Smash Brothers that people will be like, oh damn, I have to do this? *39:31* And Sonic and Tails just seemed like a natural thing to put in. *39:38* And I thought, well, we could get good images of Sonic *39:43* and tails in 3D and make it look like they were on a Smash Brothers stage and we could get the uh fighter select screen because there were I think two holes on the side. *39:49* Yep. *40:01* Uh *40:01* the last row in in the select screen where another fighter or two could definitely fit. *40:02* So it was easy enough to kind of botch it and *40:09* We had really great art directors on EGM that could make fake screenshots. *40:14* And I worked with uh with Mike Rysel was the guy who I worked with on this and *40:19* I took I don't know how many screenshots of Sonic Adventure uh two to or I think it was two to try to get a a shot that would look natural in *40:27* in Smash Bros. *40:38* And then I would you know we'd put this in the layout and then we'd show people like if you were seeing this like *40:39* What would your thought be? *40:48* Like can you see any place where you'd say, oh, that's fake? *40:49* And then we would adjust if they said they said it was obvious. *40:54* And uh then I came up with the parameters for the you have to get 20 KOs with one character in cruel melee. *40:59* And *41:09* You like gas. *41:10* I couldn't even get like past double digits, like but I thought like okay, what's what are people gonna really like what's achievable *41:12* theoretically, but people are gonna like really struggle with. *41:22* So twenty was the number I came up with. *41:25* And *41:29* Yeah, it screwed with people big time. *41:30* It did. *41:33* It really did. *41:34* Even though there's a hint. *41:35* There is there are hints in *41:36* The layout, you can see the date that it unlocks is four one. *41:39* Yes. *41:43* So that's a hint. *41:43* And I think uh like the pose of Sonic is *41:45* like a clear art asset from I don't know which Sonic game that was, but the one where he's standing, his head's leaning to the side. *41:49* Like I think that's straight pulled from another game or box art or something. *41:56* It is, yeah. *42:00* So it's And it's in there, it's mixed in with other real information, too. *42:02* Like it's the first entry here, but uh it's mixed in with things that are correct. *42:07* So *42:12* I just I like the the quote a dream's been cast. *42:13* That was pretty that's pretty good. *42:17* But man, we tried so hard, man. *42:20* We tried so so hard. *42:22* Well, um sorry not sorry. *42:24* No, you shouldn't be, because it's really uh I think it's one of the great great jokes turned rumor myth type thing that actually ultimately turns out to be true just down the line. *42:26* So what did it feel like after years of well, I guess it wasn't that long, but you know, years of people like, ah, Sonic and Melee, you f that's what I want and you k you just lied to me. *42:38* Now Sonic's actually in Brawl. *42:49* What did that feel like to you? *42:51* Is that just like a weight off your creative shoulder? *42:53* Oh no, not at all. *42:56* I w there was never a weight on my shoulders. *42:57* Good, good. *43:00* Honestly. *43:01* Like I never felt bad about it. *43:02* But *43:04* I thought, oh, you know, that's great, like that they're introducing fighters from other series. *43:05* I I actually kind of wondered if this trick was any sort of catalyst for that. *43:11* um discussion to those discussions to be had or oh yeah maybe we can bring in other franchises. *43:16* Um *43:23* But also like people did get 20 KOs and cruel melee and they were pissed off that uh nothing happened. *43:24* I think he sent them a copy of Sonic Adventure Battle 2, 2 Battle or something. *43:33* I is my understanding. *43:37* We ran a contest that if you can actually do it and videotape yourself *43:39* Getting 20 KOs and send it in like will put you in a in a contest for uh Sonic Adventure 2 battle on GameCube and *43:43* So watching those tapes come in was also really fun because then I could see like some people these people doing doing this. *43:53* I just picture these *44:01* You're setting up the camera, filming this grueling effort, 'cause I actually tried it again the other day. *44:03* When I booted up my save, I was like *44:09* Let me just give this a shot these da you know, is was it too difficult for however old I was or is it just too difficult? *44:11* It's just too difficult for my skill level. *44:18* But it's like pre-Youtube in a way. *44:20* Tapes are being mailed to you and you're watching them and *44:22* Man, I wish some of those tapes still existed, because that'd be really funny, I think. *44:25* That would be really funny. *44:30* Yeah. *44:32* And we watched them all, so Yeah. *44:33* That's wild. *44:35* That's so funny. *44:36* Anytime a tape would come in, it would be like, alright *44:36* Let's stop what we're doing and watch these person do this. *44:39* It was it was great. *44:43* Yeah. *44:44* That's so cool. *44:44* I love it's a it's a thing that's always stuck to me. *44:45* And I actu I don't even remember how it came up in conversation. *44:48* But when you told me that you were the one that did it, I couldn't I was like, I'm actually talking to the the person who created the I I mean I vividly remember being in my friend's basement *44:52* trying to do that. *45:03* Like it's stuck with me for so long. *45:04* So while I may have been upset as a kid, I'm actually quite thankful for it 'cause it's been it's a timeless type of memory for me and I love it. *45:06* It's always tied in with Smash *45:14* My favorite memory of this was that Nintendo had a counsel like a game counselor line at the time and *45:17* They had to add in the pre-recorded message that the Sonic Entails in Smash Brothers uh melee trick is not correct. *45:26* Like you can't do it. *45:34* They added that to their pre-recorded message so that people dialed in. *45:36* I wonder if that's up anywhere. *45:40* That would be great too. *45:41* That would be amazing to to hear again. *45:43* But uh yeah. *45:46* I mean you got Nintendo to essentially issue a statement. *45:47* I think they did it in Nintendo Power as well. *45:50* Okay. *45:53* Where they said, Nope, wrong. *45:54* It's a some other magazine doing a lame joke. *45:57* And I was like, yes, exactly. *46:01* Yeah. *46:03* That's so cool. *46:05* That's just that's so great. *46:06* Yeah *46:08* But after you know, after a a decade in press and media, magazines, not all at EGM, but a decade of doing it, you *46:09* I'm gonna say jump ship. *46:19* I don't know if that's actually like the if that was what is it going through your brain at the time, but you you jump ship and you go to the other side of the video game industry. *46:20* in the publishing, producing, I just put it all in there. *46:29* Publishing, producing, developing. *46:31* Yeah. *46:33* You started working at adult swim games for Turner. *46:33* But my brain always hears that as the high pitched turner at the end of every cartoon hour cartoon, the turner. *46:37* Uh-huh. *46:43* Yeah. *46:44* And then the boom boom boom boom. *46:44* It's just I've been watching a lot of uh the regular show lately and I hear it all the time now. *46:46* Oh nice. *46:52* It takes me back to my childhood of watching Kids Next Door *46:53* You know, whatever, uh Bill and Mandy and uh what what else they have? *46:57* Uh whatever. *47:01* You went to work for them back in two thousand seven as a senior games producer, and by the end of your time there you were the director of Game Creative. *47:02* So I'm I'm curious what was that transition like going from covering games to being essentially the one covered by the press in a way? *47:11* Uh it was a pretty natural transition, to be quite honest. *47:23* Like I had been reviewing and playing games for so long that hopping over to the production side was actually quite easy. *47:26* Sure. *47:35* And natural, uh, because it's all schedules and deadlines and *47:36* uh feedback about gameplay and like that stuff was were things that I had already had a lot of experience in. *47:44* So it actually was a pretty smooth transition. *47:52* Like the *47:56* The only thing that was different really is like seeing, okay, like now that I'm on the other side, you see *47:57* the struggle that it takes to make any video game, any even the video games that people think are quote unquote bad. *48:05* Like it's a struggle to make any game. *48:14* Like it's it is a miracle that anything comes out on time or whatever. *48:17* Like uh and *48:24* It was fun to be on that side. *48:26* And especially when I started at Adult Swim, we were doing flash games for the web. *48:29* And that was sort of a particularly *48:34* uh sort of nascent area where there's like newgrounds. *48:38* com. *48:42* Spent a lot of time there. *48:44* Yeah, yeah. *48:45* And Armor Games where it was like *48:46* There were a lot of indie games that we now call indie games that were kind of getting their start there in Flash, and that was tremendously exciting for me. *48:49* Because I was sort of over Triple A games at that time. *49:01* Like, uh and I loved in *49:07* Indies and I really liked what some people were doing in in Flash. *49:10* At the time, I think people had this image of Flash as being the punch the monkey and get a *49:14* 20% discount on your next you know new neutra n I don't know, Nutra X male enhancement drug thing or whatever. *49:22* Yeah. *49:33* Oh that's *49:34* Like there was this area of games that was like extremely exciting and the way that it was pitched or the way that Adult Swim was doing it was that they weren't doing games based on shows. *49:35* or like IP that they had in television. *49:47* They were doing games based on original concepts and *49:50* Putting them out on a flash. *49:55* There were games that like the adult Zoom audience could appreciate. *49:57* So I I remember Ro Robot Unicorn Attack. *49:59* That's the one I *50:03* Remember the most. *50:04* Robot Unicorn Attack. *50:05* I mean a game that was done in four weeks time. *50:07* It was developed in four weeks. *50:10* Yeah. *50:12* What? *50:12* That oh my gosh. *50:13* Yeah, Robot Unicorn *50:15* is one of my favorite uh games, obviously. *50:18* But uh we have been working with this guy, uh Scott's Doddard is his name, and uh *50:21* He had done like f flash game fighting games and he did a shooter for us and none of those games like really took off or anything like that. *50:29* And he had been working at Disney and he was doing these flash games on the side. *50:37* And then he got a job at Chair Entertainment, which are like the Infinity Blade people, and and now it's like Epic, so I was gonna say I thought Epic owned Infinity Blade, but they purchased that later. *50:42* They no chair was like an epic studio for entertainment. *50:56* Yeah. *51:00* So uh he said, okay, well I got this job a chair. *51:01* I can do one more game for you. *51:06* And it's gonna be like a four-week project, like done and done. *51:08* And it's gonna be a r a runner, kinda like uh Cannibalt, which was sort of the predecessor to that whole genre. *51:13* And it was the end of the year for adult swim, and we had like some extra money that you know we had to spend before the end of the year. *51:22* So we were like, yes, let's do this game that you pitched. *51:30* And so it was four weeks, yeah, right before the end of the year in 2009. *51:35* And uh he finished it up by the end of the year, and that was uh Robot Unicorn Attack. *51:41* And initially it didn't have the erasure song in it. *51:48* He put it in there as a placeholder for one of the build deliveries that he gave to us. *51:53* And when I played it with that song, it was like, uh, I think we're gonna have to license this song because it's just so good with these visuals and everything. *51:58* And Turner being a television company, they had a music licensing department so they could make that happen and they did. *52:08* And then it blew up on Flash. *52:15* Yeah. *52:17* I mean when it came out, it blew up. *52:17* It's in every single one of your kind of like different platforms here from Flash to Facebook to mobile. *52:20* Robot Unicorn Attack. *52:27* Yeah. *52:29* Always there. *52:29* Everything. *52:30* Yeah. *52:31* Yeah, and we knew it was gonna do well before it came out because everybody in the office loved it *52:32* And in fact, we started working on the mobile version before the flash version came out because we knew that it was going to be a game we wanted on mobile. *52:40* And there it did well at first. *52:51* And then I was with my wife at a concert and like checking my email on my iPhone. *52:54* And *53:02* My boss emailed me and he said like what is happening here with Robot Unicorn Attack? *53:03* And I looked at the webpage, like the analytics webpage. *53:09* I kept refreshing it and it was just like through the roof, like *53:11* crazier than anything we had seen before. *53:17* It's like what could be causing this? *53:20* Is there something wrong with the page that it's like double, triple, quadruple counting? *53:22* But no, it was that uh that 4chan had discovered it. *53:27* Ooh. *53:34* And I don't know if you never I mean I guess *53:35* It was probably good. *53:38* In my brain, 4chan's always a dark place that I never want to go. *53:39* I know. *53:43* So it still is. *53:43* No. *53:49* No, but in 2009 *53:50* They kind of they had a lot of s that forum had a lot of sway. *53:53* And uh that and dig. *53:59* I don't know if you remember Diggs. *54:01* I do remember Dig. *54:02* Dig Dig's a nicer place. *54:03* A much nicer place, yeah. *54:05* Yeah, but the so those two sites like had hit it and it blew up like crazy. *54:07* That's so cool. *54:14* That was amazing. *54:15* And yeah, that so the original developer had gone to work at Chair and couldn't do any more work for us. *54:16* So after he delivered the flash game, like we ended up doing *54:23* the mobile ports and the other stuff ourselves with with, you know, third party developers. *54:28* It's very cool. *54:33* I I remember *54:34* The one Facebook game I got really into, it wasn't an adult swim game, but it was it was Mafia Wars. *54:36* Oh, absolutely. *54:42* Yeah, okay. *54:43* I just I think that's an interest you know, what was it like *54:45* Now you're now you're working on, you know, console games, PC games, but this flash, mobile, Facebook kind of era of games, I think, was really concentrated at that time. *54:50* What is *55:01* You know, what was different about that then the d compared to what you would see nowadays? *55:01* Hmm *55:08* I think in a lot of ways it's similar, only back then the budgets were a lot smaller. *55:10* than that they are now. *55:19* And I think the people working on games you don't get as many like solo *55:22* productions as you did in the Flash days. *55:29* Like I work I got to work with Vlambeer on a couple of games and you know *55:33* Yes. *55:39* That was great fun working with those two guys and uh Ridiculous Fishing? *55:40* Ridiculous fishing, yeah. *55:46* They did a game for us called Dinosaur Zookeeper. *55:47* Okay, that sounds like a game they would make. *55:50* It was uh that was great fun, but I r I really liked their games a lot and *55:54* Actually that was kind of how we found developers to work with is I would go on Newgrounds or uh Armor Armor Games and or the App Store and like play games. *56:00* from developers that I thought had the production chops and the gameplay chops was maybe most important. *56:13* to make like a really good game and then approach them to do a game with us like for as a work for hire. *56:22* And a lot of those people were just doing games as sort of a hobbyist thing. *56:32* not getting paid or getting paid very little from those portals. *56:37* And you know, it was it was great to work with those people. *56:41* Like Pixel Jam had done Dino Run back in the day and we got them to do a bunch of games for us, which was great. *56:46* Maddie Thorson, who, you know, is Celeste. *56:53* Yes. *56:57* I worked with her on Give Up Robot and *56:57* uh a couple of other games that we did two give up robot games and that's so cool. *57:02* Yeah, so I I love Celeste. *57:09* I worked on the um the guide for IGN. *57:12* I remember my pitch was I saw it in a Nintendo Direct, kind of tying it back to those presentations, being able to fit things in. *57:15* I looked at that and went *57:21* I immediately went, that game's gonna be special. *57:23* And I emailed Sam Claiborne. *57:26* I was like, anyone on the guide for this? *57:28* Uh and he said, no. *57:30* And no one *57:32* It's at the time it didn't seem like anyone was really looking forward to this. *57:34* And I was like, there's something about this game. *57:38* And then I did the guide for it and then realized, oh, I have to collect all these strawberries. *57:40* Whoops. *57:48* Big whoops. *57:49* I remember the hotel strawberries being the thankfully editing those videos is easy. *57:50* You just edit out all the deaf. *57:55* Right. *57:57* There were hundreds of times. *57:57* Nobody has to know. *57:58* Yeah, no one has to know that I've died hundreds of times to get this one strawberry. *57:59* But I remember being like. *58:05* That's a that's gonna be a game. *58:07* And now look at look at them. *58:09* Celeste is huge and they're on Earthblade, I want to say is the name of the next game. *58:10* Something like that. *58:17* I don't know. *58:19* Yeah, Tower Fall and then Celeste. *58:19* Great party game. *58:22* Great. *58:23* Yeah. *58:24* Ooh yeah. *58:24* Poor Ooooyah. *58:26* Ooh yeah. *58:27* Ooh. *58:27* Yeah. *58:28* Oh man. *58:30* That's so neat. *58:33* I yeah, I remember playing a ton of flash games as uh in middle school and stuff. *58:34* Going over to my friend's house, we just sit at the computer and play all sorts of stuff. *58:39* It was great. *58:42* Always a good time. *58:43* Yeah. *58:44* And similarly, like iPhone was, you know, when anyone could make a game on the App Store, like you'd see so many amazing *58:45* uh implementations of swipe control and touch control and you know that's how I got working with PickPac who did like flick football was their game. *58:56* Oh, funny iOS that I really loved. *59:06* I thought it was great implementation of the touch screen, just very tactile and fun. *59:09* And so *59:14* We ended up working with them on a a couple of games that uh that did very well. *59:15* They did Shatter on PlayStation as well, and they now do Into the Dead and *59:20* A couple other games are still around. *59:27* That's neat, man. *59:30* It's this it sounds to me, in a way, it sounds like facilitating *59:32* a community of developers to kind of come together and work for your publishing brand to just bolster that that side of things. *59:39* But *59:48* You're almost, you know, what do they call 'em? *59:49* EA calls 'em when they did that whole initiative of like EA originals or something, the Yarny boy, and they still do it with um *59:52* Oh, what is it? *01:00:02* Ta two tail I don't know what it's called the game where you're two people going through divorce. *01:00:03* One game of the year. *01:00:08* Um Yes. *01:00:09* It takes two. *01:00:11* It takes two. *01:00:12* Thank you. *01:00:12* You know, so EA is *01:00:13* Getting certain developers to do that, and granted that's EA, that's really big and probably trying to bolster their image in a way, but Ubisoft did that with their own teams and stuff. *01:00:15* But it sounds like at Adult Swim you were *01:00:24* Just call even you guys would eventually work with Doublefine on Headlander, right? *01:00:27* Yeah. *01:00:32* That was so it's an interesting it sounds like a community approach in a way, just not *01:00:32* You and the consumer so much as it's you and the developers. *01:00:39* Yeah, that was the idea. *01:00:44* Really, like find indie developers who do who are doing cool things and then like *01:00:46* pay them real money to do it. *01:00:52* And uh in some of those cases those creators got to keep the IP of those games. *01:00:54* And in some other cases Turner owned the IP. *01:01:01* Um *01:01:05* But yeah, I mean that was the idea. *01:01:06* And we started in Flash, then moved to iPhone, and then eventually did Steam and console stuff too. *01:01:08* Once these sort of barrier *01:01:14* to entry for developers and for publishers got low enough where we could where we could do that. *01:01:16* Like there was that whole Steam Greenlight. *01:01:22* process that indie developers couldn't really circumvent, like they couldn't get on Steam. *01:01:25* But we had an in on that with Valve, like we were a publisher on Steam, so *01:01:32* We could that was one of the things that was a benefit of working with Adult Swim. *01:01:39* Like we can get you on Steam. *01:01:42* So that was that was pretty big. *01:01:44* That sounds it it's so interesting to think 'cause nowadays I feel like you anyone can put a game on anything. *01:01:48* More or less. *01:01:55* Yeah, have you seen how many triple A clock uh versions there are and bundles? *01:01:57* Yeah. *01:02:02* Triple A clock is just I think they're working on triple A clock seventeen at this point. *01:02:02* Oh my gosh. *01:02:07* So many people. *01:02:08* The greatest trilogy ever. *01:02:11* Um yes, yes. *01:02:13* I th I think that's more of a j aware of what it was as a joke and like knew when to stop, and then there's other companies that are just like *01:02:15* Here you go. *01:02:23* We're gonna just take all of the money. *01:02:24* Yeah, we're gonna make 20 different versions of this game and maybe people will buy it because they get an easy trophy or or something like that. *01:02:26* Yeah. *01:02:35* Ugh. *01:02:37* Oh well. *01:02:37* I digress. *01:02:39* From Adult Swim, I I didn't write down when you left Adult Swim, but it's right here. *01:02:40* It's not far away. *01:02:45* Uh two thousand s uh *01:02:47* 2019. *01:02:49* Thank you very much. *01:02:50* And then, you know, there's a little bit of a gap there, but you would come on to enhance creators behind Res, Tetris Effect. *01:02:52* There is it solely publishing or is there development help as well for humanity? *01:03:02* Uh it's both. *01:03:08* It's both. *01:03:09* It's development and publishing, but uh *01:03:10* THA is the main developer for humanity. *01:03:13* Gotcha. *01:03:17* Yeah, with uh with enhanced people helping out. *01:03:17* Very cool. *01:03:20* It's sort of a co it's for sort of a joint *01:03:21* Yeah. *01:03:24* Development at at this point. *01:03:24* Yeah. *01:03:26* So you're there under user experience director *01:03:27* So at least in our working relationship context, I understand from a playtester perspective that you're *01:03:32* Asking, you know, we're play testing. *01:03:40* So but what does that entail on the bigger scale? *01:03:43* Are you f it can't just be facilitating playtest, I would imagine. *01:03:46* Uh originally it was mostly that. *01:03:53* Yeah. *01:03:56* Uh and and it has morphed like *01:03:57* When you work in a small company, it enhances a small operation, like s an indie, really, and *01:04:03* Especially like on the US side, like a lot of folks that I work with do a lot of different things. *01:04:11* Like their title might be one thing, but they're doing a lot of other things. *01:04:17* And *01:04:21* So user experience director is just part of like I did a lot of that for humanity, but that's really only part of what I *01:04:22* Do uh I do a lot of marketing stuff as well, a lot of like writing for social posts and press releases and things *01:04:32* like that. *01:04:40* Almost anything that needs to get done, I'll do, right? *01:04:41* Like need to make a video of something or we need a clip of something. *01:04:44* Like I'll *01:04:50* hop in and and and help make it like we did uh uh with humanity when we put out the demo of that *01:04:51* Uh we put out like a demo walkthrough video and I did all the gameplay gameplay clips in that and wrote the script but we had a streamer read it. *01:04:59* So it's a lot of different things. *01:05:10* Like when you work in a small team and you're putting out a game, like there's so many things to do. *01:05:12* Like I don't think you realize uh certainly on the outside, like how many things are involved in *01:05:18* publishing a game and getting a getting something live. *01:05:25* So Yeah. *01:05:29* It's a l it's a lot of things. *01:05:30* So taking screenshots, like the store screenshots for humanity, I think most of those I ended up taking. *01:05:31* It's a lot of things. *01:05:37* You describing that, it actually to me sounds a lot like the EGM sort of stuff. *01:05:39* Where you have a lot of agency, it sounds like, to at least present things. *01:05:47* Um, I'm sure people look at all the screenshots and go, you know, what best represents the product here. *01:05:54* And what do we want everyone to see on the store, but it sounds not too far off from here's the letters we want to put in the thing and here's *01:06:00* the layout we want, or here's the news articles we want to cover. *01:06:11* It doesn't actually sound too far off to me. *01:06:14* Yeah, it's not too far off at all and *01:06:17* Even working at Adult Swim, like looking over marketing and screenshots and writing *01:06:22* press releases and reviewers guides and things like that. *01:06:30* That was all stuff that I did there too. *01:06:33* So doing that with enhance, it's uh *01:06:35* you know, it is an extension of of games writing from way back when. *01:06:39* Like I'm using the same sort of skills uh there. *01:06:44* Like I'm trying to think, okay, as a consumer, what would I want to see in these screenshots? *01:06:49* What sort of best represents the product to me and in the store description like what would sell me on this game *01:06:54* what sort of animated gifts do I want to see in the on the Steam store page? *01:07:03* Like what would sell me on this? *01:07:08* So yeah, you're thinking about it ver very much the same as you would like if working on an EGM layout or *01:07:09* or review. *01:07:17* So it's a very similar approach and it's all stuff that I like to do anyway. *01:07:18* So it kind of works out. *01:07:25* So what is it *01:07:28* I mean you would have e obviously experience from this with adult swim, but specifically with enhance here and humanity and you know, the last two years of working on that. *01:07:29* And it's getting ready to come out. *01:07:40* I'm what does that feel like? *01:07:42* Like all of this years of work, not just on your part, but the developers and the team before you started there and everyone who's come on afterward, what does it feel like as you gaz you *01:07:44* As you get closer to launch. *01:07:54* It's super exciting. *01:07:59* So *01:08:01* I mean, hats off in so many different ways to the development team because they have worked so hard on this thing for *01:08:03* longer than I've been involved at Enhance and they've really like polished it nicely and it's exciting to me to *01:08:14* be any part of the process of bringing that to players. *01:08:26* Like I *01:08:31* With every game launch, whether it was a flash game launch or an iPhone game launch or now like console stuff, like I am always super excited on launch day. *01:08:33* Usu or announce day like almost to the point where I can't sleep the night before because it's very much like I can't wait to see *01:08:45* What people are gonna think of this game, what their reaction's gonna be. *01:08:55* Like, I hope it's one way, but it could go the other way. *01:08:58* Like it's very like what's gonna happen sort of thing, and it's very exciting. *01:09:01* Like *01:09:08* The we were recently with humanity in a state of play presentation. *01:09:09* Uh and then we dropped a demo for humanity that same day. *01:09:14* Which I always try to make predictions before things, either with friends or or publicly on the blog or whatever. *01:09:18* And humanity has been the thing in my back pocket that I'm like, I can't predict this, because eventually it will actually happen. *01:09:25* But I was always before every state of play, I was like, please come back, please come back. *01:09:30* And it finally did. *01:09:34* And I was I was like, yes, this is it. *01:09:36* Now everyone can see *01:09:39* what I've seen and hopefully respond to it well. *01:09:41* And then the there was the demo the day of, which finally gave me a chance to try it out in VR, which was *01:09:44* Oh my gosh. *01:09:51* Uh so cool to finally play in VR. *01:09:52* I tried a lot with like my Quest 2 and a really wimpy laptop. *01:09:55* It was a bad time, but it was great to finally *01:09:59* have another piece of it to try. *01:10:03* And so that was really cool to finally see it. *01:10:05* Yeah, and I think the most fun part for me is, you know *01:10:08* Yugo Nakamura is the director and sort of the lead creative on humanity, and this is his first game. *01:10:15* project actually. *01:10:24* Like he's a well-known designer in Japan, like graphic design and uh website design. *01:10:25* This is his first game. *01:10:31* And so I wanted like we really *01:10:33* I wanted that to be a good experience for him too. *01:10:39* Like I feel some kind of *01:10:44* duty to the develop development team to really like help deliver this message in the best way possible to to the players like and *01:10:47* I love seeing the reaction to it and it's great now in the this age of the internet where you can watch people stream a game. *01:10:59* For instance, so uh that day when we dropped the demo, I was watching streams of humanity like all day long for like a week watching people play it and *01:11:09* I got this sense of pride for Yugo, for Yugosan, because it's like you put this thing out, it it you don't necessarily know how it's gonna be received and to have it received so well. *01:11:23* It was just great great to see. *01:11:36* And yeah, two years of build for me, two years of build-up for Yugo, you know, uh, they had been kicking around with the humanity idea for *01:11:40* for quite a long time, maybe about ten years or so. *01:11:49* And crazy. *01:11:55* To see that *01:11:57* like finally announced and you control a Shiba Inu and it's a puzzle game and it's got all this v variety in terms of mechanics and things to like see that and see people's reactions to it. *01:11:58* was great. *01:12:11* Like and actually if I'd worked in worked in the game industry back when I was working at EGM, you wouldn't have that sort of immediate *01:12:12* uh availability of people's reactions. *01:12:21* Like you'd have to wait for the magazine to come out to see the review or something like that. *01:12:23* And I can't even imagine that feeling of like when are the reviews gonna hit *01:12:28* And what are people gonna think of? *01:12:33* Uh now it's immediate, which is even better. *01:12:35* And you can see that from people on Twitter and you can see it from people streaming the game on Twitch, and it's just uh it's just been really *01:12:38* really good and really satisfying to be a part of it too. *01:12:47* Like I love that more than anything else I think is being a part of *01:12:53* bringing these games out. *01:12:59* You know, I'm not a developer. *01:13:00* I'm not developing the game. *01:13:02* I'm providing feedback on the game or like watching people play through and then delivering *01:13:03* Comments about what I see as potential problem areas, but ultimately it's their creation, and I'm trying to facilitate, you know, having it *01:13:11* get the best response possible. *01:13:24* And in humanity's case, there's also you know a level creator and things and trying to nurture that community is going to be *01:13:26* an interesting task that I'm I'm gonna be involved with and I'm looking forward to very much. *01:13:36* Yeah, I was gonna ask what is *01:13:42* not specifically for humanity itself or enhance. *01:13:45* I'm you know, I don't need I'm not looking for this the scoop here. *01:13:49* But what does post-launch in general look like for any game really that you've done? *01:13:53* And you know, the game comes out and I think today more so than maybe back in the flash mobile era *01:13:59* Games have life beyond the release, especially ones with level creators and some sort of community longevity focus. *01:14:07* It's not like you stop and you're gonna start working on secret video game next project or Tetris Effect for the whatever platform, you know. *01:14:16* You're it's here for a while. *01:14:26* So what is that *01:14:28* It doesn't really end, does it? *01:14:30* It doesn't. *01:14:32* Right? *01:14:34* I actually love that aspect of modern gaming. *01:14:36* Like *01:14:38* If you rewound time and told me that like I could play a game that I loved was gonna get updated or like continually supported for *01:14:40* a year or more after. *01:14:51* I would be so stoked about that, like I would be *01:14:53* super excited. *01:14:59* And so I mean that's what modern gaming is, I think, is yes, there's an initi initial release and you know if *01:15:00* if you're able to, and some games can do this, other games can't, like develop a community around it, then you can kind of continue delivering content. *01:15:10* to the people who love your game the most and kind of have this sort of symbiotic relationship. *01:15:20* Um and *01:15:26* We did that a lot on at Adult Swim with the mobile games. *01:15:30* We would uh update those often with new content. *01:15:33* And I loved doing that. *01:15:37* It's because, you know, those games had *01:15:38* a longer shelf life and people would play those games for a longer period of time over a longer stretch of time than just at launch and then they'd put them down or whatever. *01:15:43* And *01:15:55* I started to get into some of those communities for games. *01:15:57* Like I'm really big into Sea of Thieves. *01:16:03* Yes. *01:16:06* And *01:16:07* I've participated in that community and I l love doing it. *01:16:08* Like I love seeing that sort of community come up around a game and *01:16:12* So if I can in any way like help establish that for any game that Enhance does or anybody that I'm working for, if I could do that, like that would be super *01:16:19* satisfying to me and yeah, I think I honestly I think we're in a golden age of video games and I know a lot of people are like, oh games today suck so much, like they're live services, I hate it. *01:16:32* But I love this idea that a game you like can live on or have extra content. *01:16:47* And I've I've started playing Fortnite recently. *01:16:53* Okay. *01:16:57* Over the last year because they have the no build mode in Fortnite now. *01:16:58* That and the Unreal 5 update almost. *01:17:04* We're very close to getting me to download and try it out because I watched Digital Foundry's video on all the Unreal Five stuff. *01:17:07* It's like, oh my gosh, four *01:17:13* Fortnite's actually beautiful. *01:17:15* It does. *01:17:18* It looks beautiful now. *01:17:19* And I started playing that in part *01:17:21* Because the last year was very tough for me on a personal level. *01:17:27* I had m my mom passed away and then my brother passed away. *01:17:31* And I looked to games like so many people do as sort of a *01:17:35* escape and uh Fortnite actually like became my regular evening game kind of my kind of wind down game. *01:17:39* my comfort game, honestly. *01:17:49* Because it's not necessarily a in Fortnite I found it's not about winning. *01:17:51* You know, you're one of a hundred people in the lobby. *01:17:57* Your your odds that you're gonna win are pretty low. *01:18:00* But you can still run around, have fun and shoot at things, and the way that they've structured like the *01:18:04* quests and things in that game. *01:18:12* Just make it fun to play as a as a casual player. *01:18:14* And they do this, they do a great *01:18:18* job with skill-based matchmaking where I'm not up against people who are super good. *01:18:21* So I feel like *01:18:27* I can win in a firefight, cause there's so many people playing of any age group, and yeah, I'm probably killing six-year-olds, but *01:18:29* It still makes me feel pretty good when I win win a firefight, right? *01:18:36* Yeah. *01:18:41* So uh but like that game *01:18:41* The fact that there's always something new coming out and there's always something new almost every week to look forward to, like I really appreciated that in over the last year and *01:18:45* So I appreciate that about any game that I play now. *01:18:55* And I feel like you know, working on a game, hopefully you will be somebody's favorite game. *01:18:59* Hmm. *01:19:08* You know, that's that's incredibly rewarding. *01:19:08* You put out a game and somebody says that they love it, that's the best, right? *01:19:12* Like *01:19:18* And then to be able to like deliver them more content is even better. *01:19:18* Or like have a conversation with somebody who's a real fan of whatever game you're working on. *01:19:23* Like that's so rewarding. *01:19:28* And yeah, ever since I started in this half of the industry, like looking at like somebody's, you're gonna be somebody's favorite game *01:19:32* It's like that's that's awesome to think about. *01:19:42* Like I wanna I wanna meet that person, I want to talk to them about the game. *01:19:44* That is cool. *01:19:49* Yeah. *01:19:51* That's awesome. *01:19:52* I love it. *01:19:53* I love it so much. *01:19:54* Well, thank you so much for your time, CJ. *01:19:55* I really, really appreciate you coming on the show and talking to me. *01:19:58* Yeah, thanks very much, Max. *01:20:02* This was this was great. *01:20:04* We talked about a lot of things that I've never talked about on uh in other places, so this is great. *01:20:05* That's a little actually surprising considering *01:20:11* Well your show has over eight hundred episodes. *01:20:13* Why well that's true. *01:20:17* But nobody uh nobody asked me about the first uh uh the first issue of EGM that I worked on in the letters section. *01:20:21* Like that I think that's *01:20:28* Interest for sure interesting to talk about. *01:20:30* So I I appreciate the questions. *01:20:32* One more question actually, just going way back to the to the EGM stuff. *01:20:36* In my research looking for all this stuff, it's I've got these PDF scans of not honestly a lot of them aren't really great quality. *01:20:41* I know the video game *01:20:49* History Museum, I think that's the name of it. *01:20:51* Like they have every issue of EGM and they're doing actual nice scans and you know they're trying to preserve this stuff. *01:20:53* How do you feel about your written work, reviews, news, whatever? *01:20:59* Kind of *01:21:04* It's not lost, like I could go find it, but it's not searchable or necessarily attributed to you. *01:21:05* It's just *01:21:13* in the EGM ethos. *01:21:14* Like what is how does that feel? *01:21:17* Having your work kind of just not lost to time, but lost to time in a way. *01:21:19* Right. *01:21:25* Yeah, and uh most of the EGM issues that I worked on were before the internet really picked up. *01:21:26* And so like there's *01:21:32* Uh when people think of EGM they often think of the era that was like just after I left which is fun. *01:21:37* Uh but to me, I'm just happy that I have a tangible representation of what I've worked on. *01:21:46* Yeah. *01:21:53* Like uh that has been important to me and *01:21:54* Yeah, like I think I think that's what it is. *01:22:00* It's great to have a tangible representation. *01:22:03* You know, I did a lot of online *01:22:05* writing for GameSpot also, and all that is definitely lost to time because that's not even searchable anymore. *01:22:07* Like even if it was attributed to me, you can't find that anymore. *01:22:17* So like *01:22:20* Having that tangible time capsule of these EGM issues is actually very I'm very happy that it exists and I'm happy that I have copies of all the issues that I worked on. *01:22:21* Good *01:22:34* Uh I think yeah, a year a year ago my storage locker got broken into. *01:22:35* I remember talking to you about that. *01:22:40* That was super psych *01:22:41* And all of my video games, uh my entire collection is gone, which is uh something I'm still dealing with today, just like the grief over that. *01:22:43* But uh they didn't take the magazines. *01:22:55* Which is so I mean I get it, the monetary value of all the video games. *01:22:58* And I'm sure you had an impressive collection. *01:23:02* I can only imagine over the years, I'm I'm sure you had all the old stuff, all the good stuff. *01:23:05* And some of the uh 3D O fan over here, you may have had one of those. *01:23:10* The white whale. *01:23:14* Oh my gosh. *01:23:16* Do you have Way of the Warrior? *01:23:16* That's my Of course. *01:23:18* That's what I want, man. *01:23:20* That's what I want a three for. *01:23:21* I need I need that naughty dog. *01:23:22* It's a terrible game. *01:23:26* I loved it at the time. *01:23:27* It's terrible though. *01:23:28* But the story of how they made it in their little college dorm with *01:23:30* I love that, yeah, yeah. *01:23:40* But they didn't take the magazines and I'm very thankful for that because I now I don't have to track those down. *01:23:41* At the very least. *01:23:47* But uh yeah, that's sort of I'm holding on to that as yeah, a physical representation of like the work that I did back in the late 90s, 2000s and that *01:23:48* is great to have. *01:24:00* Like I I do occasionally look back at that stuff and it's hard to read stuff that you worked on. *01:24:03* So many years ago, as I'm sure you know, like looking back at old writing, like sometimes it can be a little cringy. *01:24:09* Oh yeah, for sure. *01:24:19* I my review of The Last of Us, like my original back in 2013 review, I'm *01:24:20* Whew, I needed to calm down a little bit. *01:24:27* Yeah. *01:24:30* I mean it's a great game. *01:24:30* It's I love it and what it's become and all that stuff, but *01:24:31* I was acting like I had seen the light and was trying to preach the gospel to people over here. *01:24:36* It's like, everybody, you must play this. *01:24:42* Um *01:24:45* Yeah. *01:24:46* Sometimes but but that is still up. *01:24:46* No matter how embarrassing or or cringy any of that is, I've definitely made it a priority to preserve my work. *01:24:50* I even That's good. *01:24:56* I found *01:24:57* I had this old red hard drive and I have the original like Windows Movie Maker files and videos and recordings of all of my original stuff that I was doing for Smash Bros. *01:24:59* Brawl. *01:25:10* on YouTube, like what would have been my first steps into this type of work and industry. *01:25:11* I have it all. *01:25:17* And I don't know why I was a digital pack rat, but *01:25:19* I was and I still have it today and now it's backed up to like 37 different places. *01:25:22* So I'll never lose it unless everything blows up at once. *01:25:26* Right. *01:25:30* But it was That's important though. *01:25:31* Yeah. *01:25:33* And I went *01:25:33* And I actually just used it for the first time. *01:25:34* I have the original recording and I used it in a clip of this Super Smash Brothers Brawl anniversary special we did. *01:25:36* on the show a couple um episodes ago and I was able to use that. *01:25:43* The real file. *01:25:47* The real I was like, that's kind of cool. *01:25:48* I sure I sound like I didn't it hadn't hit puberty yet, but I had the file. *01:25:51* There you go. *01:25:57* That's so awesome. *01:25:58* I love that. *01:25:59* Yeah. *01:26:00* Preserve your work, people. *01:26:01* It's important. *01:26:02* You will thank your future self, I promise. *01:26:03* You definitely will, yes. *01:26:05* Definitely preserve all that stuff, even if it's cringy. *01:26:07* Yes. *01:26:12* You can k preserve it privately, but keep it because it it will help you down the line. *01:26:12* Being able to look back is essential, I think. *01:26:18* So it's true. *01:26:20* Well thanks again, CJ, for joining me on the show. *01:26:21* Uh where can the people find you online, both personally and uh professionally over at Enhance? *01:26:26* But where can the people go? *01:26:32* Well, um superpac on Twitter, although I'm not really posting too much on Twitter anymore. *01:26:35* But I am on Mastodon. *01:26:41* I'm on uh there as superpac at mastodon. *01:26:42* social *01:26:47* Okay. *01:26:47* And I do post there. *01:26:48* And then let's see. *01:26:49* Oh, yeah, I do a podcast every week about video games that you can check out on player1podcast. *01:26:51* com. *01:26:58* It's called the Player One Podcast. *01:26:58* Have been doing that show since 2006 and yeah, we have 850 some episodes of that. *01:27:00* I couldn't when I saw that I couldn't believe it. *01:27:08* What an impressive just *01:27:10* Amazing run. *01:27:13* And it it's not like it's over. *01:27:14* It's just like I can't. *01:27:15* I've been podcasting for I think fifteen years almost this year or something, and that's been over the years and multiple shows and just one show for *01:27:17* Ten years? *01:27:27* Yeah, yeah. *01:27:30* Crazy to think about, but it I I it's a show where I'm talking with uh former *01:27:32* journalists as well, like Greg Seward used to work at EGM as well. *01:27:38* He was a reviews editor and previews editor. *01:27:42* And then Phil Theobald used to work at uh EGM and *01:27:45* Game Now and EGM2, an expert gamer, and Nintendo Power. *01:27:50* He also worked at Nintendo Power. *01:27:55* And so we hop on a call every week and talk about video games. *01:27:57* And it's it's great fun. *01:28:02* So player one podcast anywhere you get your podcasts. *01:28:03* And then Enhance is uh Enhance EXP on Twitter. *01:28:06* There's also at Humanity Game for humanity stuff. *01:28:11* And we're enhanced experience on YouTube and all the other places as well. *01:28:15* So people can check that out. *01:28:19* And then uh look forward to humanity coming out. *01:28:21* in May on PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, and Steam, and it's as you say, uh VR compatible, so PSVR1 and PSVR two. *01:28:25* Yes. *01:28:35* Everyone go check humanity out in May. *01:28:36* I know there's like some game called like Zelda or something coming out, but *01:28:39* Check out human. *01:28:44* Yeah. *01:28:45* Definitely worth it. *01:28:45* Forget that Zelda game. *01:28:46* Tears of the Kingdom, whatever. *01:28:48* Who needs to fuse things together? *01:28:49* No. *01:28:52* Lead a bunch of tiny humans places as a Shiba Inu. *01:28:52* That is the real game *01:28:56* right there. *01:28:57* That's what you want to be doing. *01:28:58* Yes. *01:28:59* So everyone look forward to that in May. *01:29:00* If you'd like, you can find my writing and work over at maxfrequency. *01:29:03* net. *01:29:06* Uh you can check out my other show, Chapter Select, seasonal podcast where we bounce back and forth between a series exploring its evolution, design, and legacy. *01:29:07* Season five. *01:29:13* Right now, Resident Evil. *01:29:14* I'm in the thick of it, man. *01:29:16* I'm playing Resident Evil 4 remake. *01:29:17* I'm getting ready to start Resident Evil 5 co-op with Logan. *01:29:20* So I'm just immersed in Resident Evil Land these days. *01:29:23* So you can go check that out as well. *01:29:27* But thank you all for listening. *01:29:30* And until next time, adios. *01:29:32*