# [[MFP32 - “Building the Ephemera” with John Linneman]] Transcript
This transcription was completed on March 4, 2026 with the application MacWhisper on macOS. This was done automatically, without human input during the transcription process. The transcription used the Parakeet v3 model.
My hope is that by offering this transcription – however accurate it may be done by a machine learning/AI – will help you, the listener. I’d love to offer full, proper transcription some day, but that is not feasible at this time. Thank you for listening and reading. I hope you enjoy the show and that this document was helpful. Enjoy.
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Hello everybody and welcome to the Max Frequency Podcast.
*00:00*
I am your host, Max Roberts, and I am joined this time.
*00:02*
I have the distinct pleasure of being joined by John Lenneman from Digital Foundry.
*00:05*
Hi John, how are you?
*00:09*
Why hello there, Max.
*00:11*
Thanks for having me on today.
*00:12*
I'm excited to be here because uh yeah, I like what you're doing over there with the podcast.
*00:13*
I listened to it recently uh with Corey.
*00:18*
Yeah.
*00:20*
On there from My Life and Gaming.
*00:21*
Good friend of both of ours, I guess, you know.
*00:23*
So yeah, it's my turn now.
*00:25*
It is.
*00:27*
I've been it's it's been a it feels like a long time because it I asked you to be on the show
*00:28*
Right before I had to go on a work trip, which probably wasn't the smartest thing from my end.
*00:35*
And then you had Gamescom and a trip to Japan.
*00:42*
So it's just been a
*00:47*
It's just not been a um it's not been the best time so far.
*00:48*
So now, right before probably one of the busiest Octobers in a long time, I've been able to get you on.
*00:53*
So I really appreciate you taking the time.
*01:01*
to talk to me.
*01:03*
Oh, absolutely, my friend.
*01:03*
I'm happy to be here.
*01:04*
So let's get into it.
*01:06*
Yeah, I uh in doing and digging into to you and your work, I've been watching
*01:08*
Gosh, I don't know I c how long I've been watching Digital Foundry.
*01:14*
It feels like a very long time.
*01:16*
Uh but your your voice has always been a constant that I've been listening to and it makes sense because you started back in May
*01:18*
May of twenty thirteen, so it's been ten years, which happy anniversary for you.
*01:26*
That's a locked back.
*01:30*
Yes, thank you.
*01:31*
Thank you.
*01:32*
Yes, it has been a long time.
*01:32*
And I noticed that it seemed at least the first article.
*01:34*
I I couldn't even find a video.
*01:39*
So I guess it was of an art of the puppeteer, a tech analysis.
*01:41*
Yeah, I can't
*01:45*
I can explain that.
*01:46*
It's simple.
*01:47*
I mean, when I joined DF, well, we weren't really doing videos like this, right?
*01:48*
You remember the the turn of phrase pivot to video that was all the rage during that era?
*01:53*
Well that's kind of what I helped do in 2015 was, you know, like it's time to pivot to video.
*01:57*
Richard wanted to do it as well, and we just did it, but before that everything was mostly just articles written out.
*02:04*
with supporting video files as in just here's the raw data in a video, check it out.
*02:10*
Not very interesting, but it shows the work, so to speak, right?
*02:16*
Like the real meat was in the article.
*02:19*
It which is so
*02:21*
Interesting to think of that that was how at very technical information was covered instead of it just being a video.
*02:23*
Because when you think of a frame rate analysis or resolution or you know pixel counting or whatever you were doing
*02:30*
Reading about it doesn't sound like the logical place to dig into it.
*02:37*
Well I mean, you know, the internet was a different place back then, I would say.
*02:43*
Yeah.
*02:47*
And like consuming video content, especially high fidelity content, wasn't even really
*02:47*
It wasn't very good on YouTube, I would say.
*02:52*
In fact, most of the videos we did post during that era were hosted locally on Eurogamer servers because we could actually spit out higher quality video files through that.
*02:55*
on-site player as opposed to YouTube itself, uh, which, you know, that was useful for us, but I mean that's just how it was.
*03:05*
That's how Richard started it when he when he really kicked off the whole DF thing.
*03:12*
Uh although DF itself started out as something else first before it turned into this sort of game tech analysis, whatever it is now, kind of channel.
*03:16*
Um but
*03:25*
Yeah, it was pretty much just a a site-based thing that you read about.
*03:27*
And I was a fan, by the way.
*03:31*
I I read Digital Foundry.
*03:33*
That's that's the whole reason I'm here really.
*03:35*
It's like, oh, I like this stuff.
*03:37*
And it was it resonated because this was the kind of stuff I was actually doing on my own or with a friend of mine where we would like
*03:38*
uh load up games across multiple formats and just compare uh including especially the retro stuff actually we would have multiple CRTs out and just like hooking up all this stuff and like literally directly comparing it in real time
*03:46*
And I love doing that stuff.
*03:59*
And I always have.
*04:02*
So it was a natural fit.
*04:03*
It does, it sounds like it.
*04:05*
I remember I don't remember when you specifically shared this.
*04:07*
There was the first video on your YouTube channel.
*04:12*
You recently, I think, tweeted about it and recently could be months, I don't know.
*04:15*
But it was uh it was Project Gotham Racing Loading Times.
*04:19*
And it's just this pure video of just this is how long it takes for this game to load.
*04:22*
And I it I it's distilled Digital Foundry.
*04:28*
Yeah, so I'm I can't remember the exact circumstances, but I suspect I was in a conversation on a message board.
*04:33*
Uh probably neo-GAF or if it was just regular GAF back then.
*04:41*
I don't know.
*04:45*
Uh
*04:46*
But we were probably talking about loading times and I probably made a point about it and filmed it and it was like here this is how long it takes with a full grid of cars
*04:47*
Yeah.
*04:57*
Yeah, exactly.
*05:01*
The description is just PGR3 loading times.
*05:01*
Yeah.
*05:04*
It's like
*05:04*
It's and I w you know I watch it.
*05:08*
It's a it's a minute and ten seconds just because it's it's so goofy.
*05:10*
I'm thinking about it today in today's context of the SSD and
*05:14*
You know, a game like God of War Ragnarok loads in like two seconds and it's
*05:19*
in you know, so much more detailed and larger than Project Gotham Racing.
*05:28*
Or comparing it to a car game.
*05:32*
I haven't played Forza Horizon yet, but if it's anything like Grand Turismo 7 in regards to load times, I mean
*05:34*
That's pretty it's pretty incredible.
*05:40*
You mean for some motorsport, not Horizon.
*05:41*
Correct.
*05:45*
Fort Fort's motorsport.
*05:45*
It's actually
*05:47*
noticeably slower than Grand Turismo 7, but it's still pretty it's pretty fast, I would say.
*05:48*
Okay.
*05:54*
Perf perfectly acceptable, but not like instant like GT7 is.
*05:55*
But it's pretty crazy still.
*05:58*
They're both they're both real fast compared to to prior games, I would say.
*06:01*
Honestly, PS3 360, that era was one of the worst for loading times outside of the old disc uh floppy disk days or the tape cassette days.
*06:05*
Mm-hmm.
*06:13*
That was bad.
*06:13*
That was real bad that era.
*06:14*
Loading times were not good in so many games.
*06:16*
Yeah, it was
*06:19*
There was a bit of that, but it's just by that point uh the amount of memory in those consoles grew to be too much where you couldn't actually pull the data off the disk fast enough.
*06:26*
Right?
*06:35*
Like the PS2 era, loading times, even though people sometimes complain, they're actually not very long in most cases.
*06:35*
Most games load pretty quick, I would say.
*06:41*
Uh and it's also true of PlayStation Saturn era as well.
*06:44*
Loading times are not that long.
*06:48*
They're s they're slower than cartridges, but they're really not that long.
*06:50*
It really was this PS3 era when you're having to fill
*06:53*
Signi like 256 megs of system RAM or 512 total on the 360, you know.
*06:57*
Um it's it takes a long time if you're running off an optical disc.
*07:03*
Yeah.
*07:07*
I'm kind of it's similar-ish in the in this vein of thinking about it from ten years ago.
*07:08*
Where things were running off.
*07:16*
The Blu-ray discs and hard drives and and loading and things like that.
*07:18*
Games were DVDs, like.
*07:22*
Yep.
*07:26*
I forget, I always forget that.
*07:26*
Uh but thing it feels like things have changed a lot and maybe they haven't.
*07:28*
Maybe they've been like this on PC for
*07:33*
f for a lot longer because it feels like things trickle down just from PC specs to the consumer level on on consoles, but a lot of things have changed on the tech front.
*07:36*
And I've imagined have increased the scope of what you have to know about and cover when you're looking at a game for Digital Foundry from
*07:46*
Resolutions to now we've got ray tracing and loading and sound and frame rate ranges out the wazoo, right?
*07:55*
Now with VRR being in the mix, so things are
*08:05*
are fluctuating but being covered up.
*08:08*
Like I'm curious how you stay on top of it because I feel like it's a lot for me to read about and learn about.
*08:11*
But you have to almost
*08:18*
be an expert in a way or at least know who to ask to find out.
*08:21*
That's right.
*08:25*
Yeah.
*08:26*
It is um it's a challenging situation, especially because the focus our coverage has changed.
*08:26*
Uh when Digital Foundry first started, it really was just mostly about the resolution and the frame rate, right?
*08:32*
That that was the main thing
*08:38*
And hasn't been that way for a long time.
*08:40*
We started shifting away from that back when I was pretty new and we were still doing articles.
*08:43*
I remember doing those big pieces on like the order 1886.
*08:48*
I did one for Rise, Son of Rome, you know, where you kind of look more closely at the visuals themselves beyond just uh the resolution and frame rate.
*08:54*
And, you know, with modern games, that stuff I think has become largely
*09:03*
Irrelevant in many cases, although with the rise of Unreal Engine 5 and its heavy demands, we're starting to see some pretty low resolutions again.
*09:08*
So maybe resolution is becoming slightly more important again.
*09:15*
Um, but you know
*09:19*
For I have to keep up all of us we have to keep up with just like what's going on and that that requires reading a lot of white papers, like looking at all the GDC and Sigraph presentations that developers are giving.
*09:21*
Talking to developers wherever we can, you know, the ones that are open, we can ask some questions.
*09:32*
You know, I dabble a lot still in in Unreal Engine myself just to familiarize my myself with
*09:37*
how certain things work and kind of gain an understanding of what it takes to do certain things, although I'm not building large scale projects, mind you, just small things.
*09:44*
But
*09:54*
It gives you an idea of how certain things are implemented or the performance costs or what it takes to to make this work.
*09:54*
And trying to take all that knowledge and then distill it down into an entertaining video presentation.
*10:01*
Um it's really hard.
*10:09*
I try my best.
*10:11*
I think uh it's it's yeah, it's tough.
*10:12*
You know, I do what I can, but I always I feel like I'm not doing enough, but
*10:16*
I still I I try to get all that information in there without it being too much.
*10:20*
Because it's not a it's not a tech presentation.
*10:26*
And furthermore, in a lot of cases, we're still uh have to hypothesize things
*10:29*
Because we don't especially pre-release, we don't have access to all this information, right?
*10:33*
They haven't shared how things are done yet.
*10:38*
So you kind of have to look at other things and kind of
*10:41*
extrapolate from what one developer or certain type of technique is using and uh figure it out from there.
*10:44*
Or you just get used to certain telltale signs of like, oh yeah, this
*10:50*
this type of effect or this style of reflection or this type of thing looks a certain way that is reminiscent of this other thing
*10:54*
And it sends you down that road.
*11:03*
So there there is a lot of research that goes into writing the scripts, I would say.
*11:04*
In in many cases.
*11:11*
I was just thinking about because you you mentioned Unreal, but then my brain started going to
*11:14*
proprietary engines, in-house engines.
*11:19*
Yep.
*11:22*
And that I that's gotta be even more guesswork.
*11:22*
So I my brain, as I'm a huge fan of Naughty Docs games.
*11:26*
I've I've read a lot, done a lot of research and things.
*11:30*
And so my brain goes to how do you how do you dig into that?
*11:32*
And I guess you're you're looking at previous releases.
*11:38*
So on The Last of Us Part One comes out.
*11:41*
Right.
*11:44*
So then you're looking back at part two and uncharted four and I guess you're Sort of, yeah.
*11:44*
But there's also just there's you can see, even if you don't understand how something is done yet.
*11:50*
You can still point it out and recognize, oh, I rec this thing that they're doing here is really interesting and or impressive.
*11:56*
And even if we don't yet know how they've accomplished me accomplished it.
*12:04*
uh it's worth pointing out and basically highlighting it for the viewers to say like okay take note of this thing because this is actually really interesting and here's why it's interesting.
*12:08*
Even if you can't explain
*12:19*
how it's doing it or why it's doing it.
*12:21*
Yeah, exactly.
*12:23*
In a in a proprietary engine in a pre-release state, you can you can hypothesize and point stuff out, but you won't necessarily know a hundred percent how it works.
*12:24*
Uh I mean
*12:34*
And usually you know I've gotten pretty I think one of the better examples is uh you remember the Spider-Man Puddle Gate in 2018.
*12:35*
Right?
*12:43*
Uh I was happy to learn that I laid out my hypothesis of what was happening and then I think quite some time later in a presentation somebody from Insomnia confirmed that it was exactly right.
*12:44*
So I was uh I was happy
*12:56*
That's a I feel like that's a thing that does this happen a lot when you go back to say a GDC pres presentation about a game years later where the developer's finally opening up about, well, this is how we
*12:58*
did certain puddles and reflections or ray tracing in Spider-Man, you know, what was that was 2018?
*13:10*
It was Spider-Man?
*13:17*
Yeah, that would have been the the PS4 one.
*13:18*
Right.
*13:20*
So
*13:20*
Say there's a GDC talk about that years later.
*13:21*
Is that is that something then you go back you'll end up watching and retroactively realizing?
*13:24*
Absolutely.
*13:30*
I love to go back and watch those.
*13:31*
Yeah.
*13:33*
One of the more interesting ones recently was actually Final Fantasy 16 because they were doing something really wild with the shadows.
*13:33*
They kind of behaved like ray traced shadows, but at other times they didn't.
*13:40*
And I was like, wait, are these are they using ray tracing or not?
*13:44*
Like what are they doing?
*13:47*
And it was some some really weird s I can't remember exactly what it was, but
*13:48*
the it's not actually ray trace shadows, but they're doing something to allow them to produce close range shadows on characters and stuff that actually
*13:54*
behaves a lot like a retraced shadow would.
*14:04*
So they get those super fine shadows on like, you know, small details on the character model.
*14:06*
Uh so you know and they they finally shared a whole presentation just about that, which was great.
*14:12*
That's so cool.
*14:18*
It uh That sounds so
*14:19*
niche, right, to dig into just the way a shadow works in Final Fantasy.
*14:23*
Yeah.
*14:28*
But it also sounds really cool from a tech perspective by not tapping into ray tracing, which
*14:29*
is I would imagine more technically expensive.
*14:36*
Like taxes.
*14:39*
Not always.
*14:40*
Okay.
*14:41*
Absolutely.
*14:41*
Operations um where one example if we're still talking Spider-Man, it's fresh in my brain since I just covered that.
*14:47*
Uh in Spider-Man 2, for instance, in my video, there was this section about
*14:56*
building interiors.
*15:01*
So they did this wild thing where if you look inside any of the skyscrapers, like the buildings or the the rooms inside the buildings have actual 3D space now.
*15:02*
Okay.
*15:10*
So it was a flat texture that was designed to be decorated like it was an interior.
*15:13*
It was like an in like a basically a projected cube map inside the buildings, and it was a clever parallaxing trick, but
*15:17*
You could tell the limitations pretty easily.
*15:23*
Where here it's like you look at every room, and not only are they actually moderately detailed, but there's sometimes animated characters inside the rooms.
*15:25*
And the shadows from outside the room are projected perfectly into the room, like exceptionally clear, and you're just like, what the heck?
*15:36*
Like, how are they doing this?
*15:44*
But if you look really closely, you can actually spot some artifacts and I noticed, wait a minute, there's like these um checkerboard style patterns inside there.
*15:46*
Which look a lot like the the same checkerboard pattern with the ray trace reflections, right?
*15:56*
So what I think they're doing there is actually
*16:01*
uh drawing these rooms in the BVH structure, the acceleration structure, which is where you know they would trace the rays into, right?
*16:04*
That's how ray tracing is feasible.
*16:10*
They're using like a facsimile of whatever the scene is, like the whole city world and trace into that and it's simplified versus the act what you actually see.
*16:12*
Uh I think they're tracing into boxes that are then projected onto the textures on the sides of the buildings.
*16:20*
And I think that's actually faster in this case because
*16:25*
Uh if they were to actually do real shadow maps and all the stuff through transparent glass and all this all that geometry rendered, I think it would be super freaking expensive in the more traditional way, like using like portals and stuff like that.
*16:28*
So I think by using the ray tracing features that they already have implemented for reflections, they found a really fast way to generate create the illusion of there being real rooms behind all the glass.
*16:41*
That sounds dope.
*16:55*
That's a case where I think ray tracing is faster uh than you know some traditional rasterized techniques, which that that rules.
*16:56*
I love that stuff.
*17:05*
Yeah, that's so it's so neat.
*17:06*
And it's interesting to see what in in the context of Spider-Man, which at least Spider Man 2 at least at this time is a PS5.
*17:08*
only game.
*17:16*
I imagine within two years it will come to PC, which seems to be the the current cadence for for PlayStation exclusives, maybe even less time.
*17:17*
I think Horizon was only
*17:24*
eighteen months or so.
*17:26*
But it's interesting to see what they come up with to work within the limitations of the console hardware, which or at least currently for PlayStation are all the same across the board until
*17:27*
Some sort of pro model comes out given the rumors.
*17:38*
Exactly.
*17:41*
It's cool to see what they come up with within these um
*17:42*
Restrictions, which is crazy to think about restrictions for uh what are we, three three, four years into the console's life cycle?
*17:46*
I mean yeah, but it's twenty it was twenty twenty, but you know, it's just the
*17:56*
With the way hardware is and and you know that what they're trying to do, there's always gonna be limitations, but a lot of the best stuff comes from working around those limitations.
*18:01*
So another aspect of
*18:11*
Your work at Digital Foundry is like the whole retro it feels like the whole retro section, DF retro, is is very John Edman.
*18:14*
That's that's mostly me.
*18:22*
That's right.
*18:23*
It's John's baby.
*18:24*
Alex likes to dip his toes in there with some some time capsule PC stuff, which is awesome.
*18:24*
But I got I got those I convinced I convinced him to get it back into the CRT game, and I think he uh he's very happy.
*18:29*
Everyone should come back to the CRT game.
*18:38*
Let's keep them alive.
*18:40*
I agree.
*18:42*
I agree.
*18:43*
So
*18:45*
In looking at this, because I've been, you know, I wa when the new ones come out and stuff, but I don't remember watching DF Retro from the beginning.
*18:46*
So I went back to find out what the beginning was, and it it seems to have been Quake on Saturn, which is a port.
*18:52*
But then a little digging deeper, you actually had like the the port corner with uh uh what was that game called?
*18:59*
Uh Hexen.
*19:05*
Hexen on your own show, yes.
*19:06*
So uh but clearly a lot of love for the Saturn here in the early
*19:09*
what would become DF retro and then is DF retro and it was like a five minute video.
*19:13*
But today
*19:18*
A DF retro video is an hour if not longer.
*19:21*
And you're
*19:27*
You said in the beginning of the Quake one, it's a great way to archive clean direct footage from classic games running on real hardware.
*19:28*
Yes.
*19:36*
But now it's so much more than that with you filming the products and magazines and CRT shots and
*19:37*
giving like deeper historical context for the game you're covering and why it is the way it is and what that means and implications later on.
*19:46*
So
*19:57*
You're basically a documentarian.
*19:58*
Yeah, that's well, that's my goal anyway, yes.
*20:01*
How
*20:04*
I there's so many questions of you know from how you capture it, which I want to talk about a little bit later, to just how do you sit down and you you plan out a video?
*20:06*
Like you're
*20:15*
You're like, I want to cover this.
*20:17*
And it seems to me to balloon up to way larger than I would imagine.
*20:18*
I love it.
*20:24*
I love watching it.
*20:25*
But I how do you just approach a DF retro video?
*20:26*
Yeah, it it has actually kind of changed because it did start out fair fairly simple and focused on like single games and uh but yeah now it's more when I w when I talk about something
*20:31*
It's mainly because I'm also obviously very interested in that topic.
*20:43*
And once I start researching, or if I already have knowledge from prior research
*20:48*
There's just so much there.
*20:55*
And I find that stuff so interesting.
*20:56*
And my idea is like when I talk about a a game series, a a a type of game, you know, whatever topic.
*20:59*
I want to present I want to take the viewer on a journey to try to help them experience that feeling of of being there at the time and sort of recreate some of the emotions around it.
*21:06*
uh, you know, build the ephemera, if you will, around it.
*21:18*
And then eventually it's like, all right, once you once you've got that, it's like now we need to go into like the nitty-gritty about about the game itself and then we look at the versions and I just wanna be this like complete
*21:22*
I want to provide a complete experience to answer all the questions that I would want answered about certain topics, basically.
*21:33*
Like uh the Road Ranch video, uh, which I spent way too long making for a couple different reasons.
*21:42*
That'll come out in public soon.
*21:49*
I know.
*21:51*
It's just
*21:52*
Richard Waits because of scheduling and I haven't had time to do more big DF retros, but that started out as like a simple thing.
*21:53*
Like this won't be too too much.
*22:00*
And then it just kept growing, like the more I investigated this stuff and the more I really dug into like and it turned into this whole retrospective looking back at like
*22:02*
the grun scene in Seattle and like kind of comparing that to how uh the rise of EA on the Sega Genesis with their yellow tab and I kind of tried to link the two together where it's like
*22:12*
EA rebelling against the publishing giant Sega, which is funny to say from twenty twenty three, of course, but at the time, you know, EA was smaller and uh
*22:24*
that was like their way of rebelling and doing something different with their unlicensed or not truly licensed, you know, games in the Genesis
*22:34*
And tried to like link all this stuff together, like the the attitude of the of the grunge era and like EA's play into the Genesis space and then what eventually gave rise to Road Rash.
*22:43*
And then that loops back around when you get to the 3DO era and like all those kind of like bands come together within Road Rash on on the in Road Rash ninety-four and like the whole aesthetic, it's just like this perfect fusion of all that stuff.
*22:54*
And you know, and then eventually you gotta take people through through the whole thing into the nineties as the as the series changed and shifted and explore why.
*23:09*
I mean I get into the
*23:18*
some of the 3DO history itself and why it is the way it is and and what they were trying to do there and it just becomes this whole story thing because if it's if I just jump like, oh yeah, and then Road Rash came out for the 3DO and I start talking about it.
*23:19*
I also want to provide the context of like what the 3DO is, but also more like what
*23:31*
why is it interesting?
*23:40*
Put what what was going on at the time?
*23:41*
I want to put people in the headspace of it.
*23:44*
It's not just about saying this is what the 3DO is.
*23:46*
It's about this is what
*23:49*
it was like to be around at that time when those games were coming out and try to create that not that you needed to be you can still do awesome stuff without actually being there but
*23:50*
I do like to leverage my own memories as well as, you know, data that I've since learned to create that experience.
*24:01*
And I don't know, I find that stuff really fun to make myself.
*24:09*
And I think people like like it.
*24:14*
So that that makes me happy.
*24:16*
I like it, so you at least know one person does.
*24:19*
I I think context is so vital to
*24:22*
understanding the why and the how of something.
*24:28*
Um I I have a journalism degree, so naturally just telling the story and getting to the truth of something is is built into the way I am.
*24:32*
But you know the three DO is a really interesting example just cause it was this console that was trying
*24:43*
to do something different and I honestly don't know a whole ton about it.
*24:50*
I just bought my own 3DL actually because of um Way of the Warrior, Naughty Dog again.
*24:54*
And um I picked up a copy of that that was super clean and was like, well now I need a way to play it.
*25:01*
So that was so I'm excited to dig into that and learn even more about it.
*25:07*
But
*25:13*
then you understand that why you know what consoles were doing and what markets were they trying to tackle or features they were trying to leverage.
*25:14*
Another game that I just learned was a 3DO game was this the plumbers.
*25:23*
Was it Plumbers Don't Wear Ties?
*25:27*
Oh yes.
*25:30*
The infamous one.
*25:31*
But I just learned about that because Limited Run is doing a re-release of it.
*25:33*
I know, I'm in the doc I'm in the documentary.
*25:37*
I saw you in the trailer.
*25:39*
And my good buddy Audi is uh one of the main producers on that.
*25:41*
So uh yes, I I can't believe that exists.
*25:44*
See, and then but I feel like if you just look at this is a really br bad game, you know, really cheesy bad type of game at the time.
*25:49*
And you just r without the context of why it is the way it is, how it entered into this meme pop culture state in the with things like the angry video game nerd
*25:57*
Which are then I was watching that video, so it's like my own rabbit hole journey.
*26:09*
It's I think context is very important.
*26:12*
So I appreciate that you you take the time to take a viewer on there.
*26:14*
Cause you could just throw up
*26:19*
This is what Road Rash looks like on the Genesis.
*26:21*
This is what it looks like on the 3DO and so on and so forth.
*26:23*
But you even go into the book, the novelization of it, which I think is
*26:26*
Really silly.
*26:31*
So context is important.
*26:32*
I like it.
*26:35*
Keep it up.
*26:35*
Thank you.
*26:37*
That's what makes it worth doing for me at least.
*26:38*
'Cause I I love going through that stuff as well.
*26:41*
Mm-hmm.
*26:43*
Cause I I learned a lot of things while researching this stuff as well.
*26:44*
And I just like to go down these deep rabbit holes and it just
*26:47*
I love that stuff.
*26:50*
So it's just me sharing what I find interesting about game history, basically.
*26:51*
Do you do you ever have to pull yourself out of the rabbit hole and go, I can't go that deep for this video?
*26:57*
Um Or you just go as deep as you you end up going.
*27:03*
I'm actually trying to work to reduce to to to pull back a little bit in some ways.
*27:07*
It doesn't always work, but like I think I realized I went
*27:12*
It was a little bit of a different project, but there was a time when I was like, you know what?
*27:16*
I should just do the do a video covering all the games that were 1080p on the PS3.
*27:20*
That would be fun.
*27:25*
The PS3.
*27:26*
I actually thought this would be a pretty easy video.
*27:28*
But then, because I was like, oh yeah, Beyond 3D has a list of games that are 1080p.
*27:30*
Except for it turns out that list is
*27:35*
hasn't been updated very much for a while and it was great, but it's missing so much.
*27:39*
So it turned out there was a lot more games than I expected that were 1080p and the figuring out
*27:44*
All of them.
*27:51*
Like I probably missed some, but the amount of work I did to like try to figure stuff out was super time consuming.
*27:52*
I think I ended up covering 88 games in one video.
*27:59*
Oh my god.
*28:02*
And it was all like four hours long.
*28:02*
I remember that.
*28:04*
That that went way too long.
*28:05*
And I should have known better, but I was happy I did it because
*28:07*
It it turned out to be a very fun rabbit hole to go down, but my goodness, that that was definitely one where I was like, yeah, I may have gone too far this time.
*28:11*
May have.
*28:19*
I trying to cover 88 games
*28:20*
in in a video and also doing things like frame rate analysis and version comparisons on every one of them.
*28:23*
It really was like making 88 sm
*28:30*
If I look back on my early DF videos from like 2015 when I was actually doing videos, it was literally like doing 88 of those in one video.
*28:32*
Oh my goodness gracious.
*28:41*
And no, Rich wasn't like, maybe this is too much.
*28:46*
Well, he's he really he supported that one and he actually helped me w capture a few of them, which is great.
*28:51*
Get some frame rate data where I needed it.
*28:56*
So
*28:58*
It was you know, it was the it was the PS triple.
*29:00*
We had to go all the way.
*29:02*
For Chad Daddy, you know, what are you gonna do?
*29:06*
Well, speaking of the PS triple and capturing 1080p games and stuff, you know, I was telling you and and listeners may will know that I just had Try and Corey on from My Life in Gaming, back-to-back episodes.
*29:10*
And, you know, talked about their setups and and all that stuff.
*29:24*
And your setup is quite is quite the thing.
*29:27*
I was trying to analyze this picture that you shared.
*29:31*
of the the tink 4K and how you were matching the brightness with your your CRT and your BBM and stuff.
*29:33*
And I was I was trying to figure out what you had and all this stuff and what was this I spy.
*29:40*
I've I've wrote it down.
*29:46*
There's a lot of consoles in here.
*29:47*
I see like an analog NT and the Wii U.
*29:49*
I assume there's a doc, a switch doc somewhere and
*29:51*
your tower of power with Genesis.
*29:54*
Okay.
*30:02*
Up where the controllers sit.
*30:03*
You know, I see a PS1 and uh your Xbox and all this stuff.
*30:05*
So I'm uh you have quite the setup, but it's it's just one of the setups too.
*30:09*
That's the thing.
*30:13*
I got like three or four setups in the house.
*30:13*
My wife does not like that, but she tolerates it.
*30:16*
But now
*30:28*
I have a detached garage that's I've turned into the office and game room.
*30:28*
So everything except her switch and dock is out here.
*30:32*
So I have a dock in the house and then everything else outside.
*30:37*
Which is nice.
*30:41*
It's been pretty great.
*30:42*
But capture is so vital to what you do.
*30:44*
And I've just rewired everything.
*30:48*
I'm preparing the way for the Tink four K.
*30:50*
I just got like an extra on switch and all that stuff.
*30:53*
But like, how how do you do it?
*30:56*
Cause I feel like your setup has to be so
*30:59*
I complicated maybe not the right word, but there's gotta be a lot of stuff going on.
*31:05*
I tried to make it pretty elegant.
*31:09*
It's not as complex as Cory, who has more space than I do, and
*31:11*
The man just went insane and I I love I love his setup, it's great.
*31:16*
Yeah.
*31:20*
Um but uh yeah, so
*31:20*
The main thing is I I kind of have to split it between modern consoles and retro consoles.
*31:23*
Okay.
*31:29*
They're both important to capture and they kind of work a little differently.
*31:30*
So I guess you could say, oh let's see here.
*31:35*
So the heart of everything really is uh my AV receiver.
*31:39*
Because that splits out all the HDMI inputs or that accepts all the HDMI inputs and sends it to where I need it to.
*31:43*
So that I guess you could say so I'll actually start at that end of the chain.
*31:52*
So you get the AV receiver.
*31:55*
Uh it has multiple outputs on it.
*31:57*
One of them goes to my main TV.
*31:59*
Uh the other runs to uh an an Atomos Ninja 5, which then has its own output, which then runs into
*32:02*
my one of my PC capture cards, which then has its own output, which then runs into another sort of a preview monitor as well.
*32:11*
So that's all so basically
*32:18*
Everything gets fed into the receiver and then it's fed through those multiple capture devices.
*32:22*
And I can capture either on my PC, which is what I need for frame rate analysis, or just directly on the Ninja 5 if I just want B-roll
*32:27*
So it's all about piping it there.
*32:35*
The Ninja 5 captures video?
*32:38*
I'm looking at it right now.
*32:40*
Absolutely.
*32:41*
That's what it does.
*32:42*
It's like a little screen.
*32:43*
Yeah.
*32:44*
It's got HDMI input and output.
*32:45*
And you use SSDs in the in the back.
*32:46*
You slice slide them in and you just capture in ProRes, which is perfect for editing.
*32:48*
Oh my gosh, this seems amaz Oh no.
*32:53*
That seems really So does the is the A V receiver it does simultaneous output then?
*32:57*
It would it would be the way you do it.
*33:02*
Yes.
*33:04*
Uh you can clone the signal basically three times if you want.
*33:13*
Especially.
*33:17*
Okay.
*33:18*
That feels like it answers one of my questions like that I've had in my that I was thinking about, which was how how do you tap into
*33:19*
using modern features like VRR or black frame insertion or something like that without messing it up the capture end of it
*33:28*
Well, that's because uh this this A B receiver, the way it the way it works is that, you know
*33:37*
It auto automatically limits the input based on what current displays are turned on.
*33:45*
So when I fire up the receiver in my uh OLEDs TV,
*33:52*
And leave the Ninja 5 turned off, I get full HDMI 2.
*33:56*
1, 120 Hertz, 4K, VRR, all that.
*34:00*
As soon as I turn on the Ninja 5, however, the receiver knows that.
*34:02*
And that then sends a signal to the device.
*34:06*
So like if I'm if I got a PS5 just running, VRR is on everything, turn on the Ninja 5, it'll literally instantly switch back to a
*34:09*
HDM to an HDMI 2.
*34:16*
0 mode.
*34:19*
So like the PS5 then changes itself to be just 4K sixty, VRR goes off, all that stuff.
*34:20*
Right, and it's all automatic based on which monitors are turned on.
*34:27*
So basically anytime I need to capture it, it's turned on the Ninja 5 and everything just sort of uh jumps over to work properly.
*34:31*
Right.
*34:39*
It just like downgrades this the signal output to be what it needs to be for the capture device.
*34:40*
And when I turn it back off
*34:45*
Everything goes back.
*34:47*
And that's thankfully the console's auto detect.
*34:47*
It used to be more annoying with the PlayStation 4 because it would always reset itself and you had to go in every time and manually choose the settings.
*34:50*
But
*34:57*
With the new consoles, they're pretty good about not doing that.
*34:57*
So uh they just kind of adjust themselves based on what the receiver is telling them.
*35:01*
Because basically when I turn on the Ninja 5, then the AV receiver is basically reporting that, hey, I can't do HTMI 2.
*35:07*
1 right now
*35:14*
And the console then would know that and it it'll it'll see that, oh, this thing doesn't support HDMI 2.
*35:15*
1, so it sends the lower signal.
*35:21*
Gotcha.
*35:23*
Right.
*35:24*
That's so smart.
*35:25*
But it's it's pretty elegant now, I think.
*35:25*
So I don't have to do any fiddling or cable changing or anything.
*35:27*
So then what about your retro stuff?
*35:31*
So then
*35:35*
That also feeds into the AV receiver by way of uh the Tink 4K right now, which is I'm still using.
*35:36*
I'm using a prototype unit at the moment.
*35:42*
And um to get to that
*35:45*
So I have a G SCART SW and a G Comp as well.
*35:49*
And
*35:57*
You know, with my shelf, I don't have every console on it.
*35:57*
I have some upstairs as well, but I have most of the consoles I would care about on that setup.
*36:00*
And they're either running SCART or they're running component.
*36:05*
And it goes to one of those.
*36:09*
From there, then the output splits.
*36:11*
So for the SCART, G SCART, of course, has dual SCART outputs.
*36:15*
Uh I have the older one, so it has an uh an a DE fifteen output and a full size scart.
*36:20*
Okay.
*36:26*
And the way I split that is
*36:26*
Uh the full size scart goes straight to my B and O, the Bangin' Olecen screen that I recently added.
*36:29*
So that just has direct scart input, so that's just scart to scart
*36:35*
And for the the the BVM and the Tink, however, I have one of the a small, I got a small version of one of the Xtron distribution amps.
*36:38*
I didn't want the gigantic one because it takes up so much space.
*36:49*
So I found a smaller one that they sell.
*36:52*
And I run the DE15 from the G SCART into the Xtron.
*36:54*
And then the Xtron then outputs uh to both the BVM and then to the Tink 4K.
*37:00*
Okay.
*37:08*
That makes sense.
*37:09*
And then you can get it on
*37:10*
And on the tink, I'm actually not using the SCART input now.
*37:16*
I'm actually using uh a uh BNC to HD or H
*37:19*
Ugh, whatever, the the DE fifteen connector.
*37:24*
So it's like the VGA style plug.
*37:28*
So I have a cable that runs that to that and
*37:30*
That talking with Bob and all them, I actually wanted to make sure of this because with the way a BNC is, like sometimes it's like the the voltages or whatever it can be a little bit too high.
*37:33*
Things are
*37:45*
Depending on what it's intended for, and the Xtron does a good job at sort of uh regulating all of that and sending out a signal that's safe
*37:46*
for the retro tank.
*37:53*
As those probe monitors, you can send you can send some crazy stuff into them and they're fine, but like more consumers hardware.
*37:55*
You can fry it if you're not careful.
*38:01*
So uh the Xtron device does exactly that and it sends a nice clean signal to the Ting 4K.
*38:04*
uh which then outputs its own thing for HDMI which you know for capture and then to so I have both of those CRTs running and if I wanted and I've done it before I can then daisy chain more CRTs in
*38:09*
via BNC on on the Pro Monitor or also through the last Xtron output.
*38:22*
But I don't have enough room here for that.
*38:30*
So I I only have the two the two CRTs currently and I think that's enough
*38:32*
Yeah.
*38:36*
And component video works similarly where uh I actually don't send component video to the B and O because that does not support component.
*38:37*
That's RGB SCART only, and I've not found a way
*38:46*
I I I haven't actually bothered with it because it's it's fine.
*38:49*
If I'm using component video, it's usually uh sending it to the tink and then the BVM, and that's fine anyway.
*38:53*
So uh right.
*38:59*
That is I love it.
*39:02*
I love because I just I just with the Xtron that I got and I got the I got an eight four.
*39:04*
So it's got eight um
*39:09*
I have components, so just up to eight component in and then I think four out.
*39:12*
And I'm I used to be daisy chaining and just unplugging and replugging in, you know, swapping these cables all the time.
*39:16*
And so it's it's such a relief to just have it.
*39:22*
work and they go into the I have a the I have the five X tank and hoping I'm saving up to try and for the the 4K as well so then I could have it go to the
*39:26*
the TV but also stream with the five.
*39:37*
It's a it's gonna hopefully be great.
*39:39*
So I'm just I love hearing about how people hook all their stuff up because it's
*39:41*
Interesting.
*39:47*
I learn a lot and it's it can be tricky.
*39:48*
It is tricky and but it's fun.
*39:51*
I I like doing that and the way I have it set up now I can just
*39:53*
Turn on any device and it just works.
*39:56*
I don't have to turn any change any settings.
*39:59*
Uh it's all automatic.
*40:02*
I mean I guess if I want to switch between component and RGB, I have to press one button on the VPM to select the input and that's fine.
*40:03*
Uh the B and O is all automatic detection via SCART.
*40:10*
So when when it detects a SCART signal, it just goes.
*40:14*
That's great
*40:17*
And then upstairs I also have more, so in the in the one area I have uh two more Sony PVMs up there.
*40:18*
One is in vertical mode for Tate, and the other is Yoko
*40:27*
and horizontal and they are side by side uh and that allows that's mainly where i use the mr
*40:31*
Okay.
*40:39*
But I also have a couple other things up there like uh Laserdiscs, uh the the CDI is up there, the Nuon is up there.
*40:40*
you know, important stuff like that.
*40:50*
I also have one one of my super guns, the super gun, the main super gun is up there.
*40:53*
And I have like a table so I can use arcade boards uh directly through that super gun.
*40:57*
So that all goes to that setup.
*41:03*
And then in the other room in the guest room, I have another setup where I have the uh
*41:06*
FW900 hooked up with a VGA input.
*41:11*
And right now I just have the a modded Xbox 360 on there, but you can use other stuff as well.
*41:14*
Because obviously that's you know you get native output 720p right to the to that monitor.
*41:19*
It looks amazing.
*41:24*
It's the best way to play like 360 and PS3.
*41:26*
And then if you turn around, I also have another PVM up there with just uh it's got a twin family com on it and a few and a PC engine.
*41:28*
It's just it's just like an extra place to chill if you want.
*41:37*
Uh and it's there for any guests that stay that just happens.
*41:41*
Staying at your place sounds like a lot of fun.
*41:45*
Yeah, you got that.
*41:47*
And then
*41:48*
I have other I have two other 20 inch PVMs and two nine inch ones that are not currently like in use.
*41:49*
They're like in the area, but
*41:57*
One of them needs repair.
*41:59*
Actually two of them need repair and just, you know, I have enough.
*42:01*
Uh I can't I don't have more room for more setups.
*42:05*
They're just they're basic backup.
*42:08*
I don't I don't know if your wife would
*42:10*
Sounds like the maybe not allow more setups.
*42:12*
No, I there's no more there's no more room to go from that point.
*42:15*
So between all of that, and then you know, I even have like another second portable mister setup mounted on my wall where I had some extra space just because why not?
*42:21*
Is that where you have the little the arcade stick?
*42:30*
Yeah, I have an arcade stick there and now I'm using a an OLED screen with a magnetic back so I can rotate it just by you know pulling it off the magnet.
*42:33*
And uh
*42:41*
That's also pretty good for Mr.
*42:44*
Because yes, I have two Misters in here rocking them out.
*42:46*
Um I'm using upstairs, I'm actually using the Mr.
*42:49*
Multi system at Retro Man Cave.
*42:52*
And uh
*42:55*
the the company I'm forgetting on the name put together and that is so awesome consolizing the Mr.
*42:56*
Experience into something like that.
*43:02*
uh is a huge huge deal.
*43:05*
It makes it much easier to deal with because the the standard old school Mr.
*43:07*
Case is just like, yeah, you got ports on every side of this thing and it just looks horrible.
*43:11*
Yeah, that's one of my I have I have a traditional Mr.
*43:16*
like that.
*43:20*
I I do have it in the aluminum case for the heat, so I don't have a fan or anything, but that's good at least.
*43:21*
Yeah, the
*43:26*
the the like one side is up against the the shelf so there's just no USB I think that's where I put all the short little USB dongles for like Wi-Fi or Bluetooth kinda so that they're but it's you know I've got the
*43:27*
the cord going to my keyboard, like it's just out and dangling.
*43:40*
And if I hook up uh the snack adapter and it's just yeah, it's not very elegant.
*43:43*
But mist Mr.
*43:49*
's very uh
*43:52*
Just uh DIY in that way of just like it just exists.
*43:55*
I mostly just use it for arcade stuff at this point.
*43:59*
That's that's my favorite use case by far.
*44:02*
That and X68000 and MSX, because I don't have originals of those, so that's uh that's really great.
*44:05*
It's been my tool for uh
*44:15*
playing analog consoles that I don't have digital solutions for and it just feels like the Mr.
*44:19*
is getting better all the time with the the PlayStation core from what was that a year or two ago and now we're getting the N64 core, which I believe.
*44:25*
That's that's honestly nuts.
*44:33*
It's bonkers.
*44:35*
So that's that's been a a nice just fun thing to have as another way to play these things or play stuff.
*44:37*
Because I don't, for example, I don't have uh like a ODE for the PlayStation, so I can just play things that I don't have necessarily that way and things like that.
*44:44*
So the Mr.
*44:53*
's great.
*44:54*
Mr.
*44:55*
's fun.
*44:56*
I wanted to ask quickly just how's the Tink 4K been?
*44:57*
I talked to Try about it a little bit, but you're the second person I've been able to talk to that's able to, you know, has a prototype and is using it.
*45:00*
I'm just how has it been to have a true 4K scalar like that?
*45:07*
Um I would say for the lower res 240p consoles, it's very nice for all the masking and everything you can do.
*45:14*
And the Blackframe insertion that it has built in.
*45:21*
I mean, it's it's really, really good.
*45:23*
But I wouldn't say it's a complete game changer on that over the 5X.
*45:26*
The 5X is still great.
*45:29*
Yeah.
*45:31*
Where it really makes a difference for me is its support of things like VGA input and HDMI input, because it allows for much very flexible high-quality scaling of the types of sources that the Tink 5X really wasn't designed for.
*45:31*
Uh so like you know, retro PC capturing, for instance, is something that's really important to me.
*45:45*
And the Tink 4K does it beautifully.
*45:51*
Uh it's it's a huge it makes a a big difference.
*45:54*
It's really, really useful.
*45:58*
And then being able to scale like, you know, 720p games from like older HD consoles.
*45:59*
nearest Amers scaling them to 4K.
*46:05*
It's gorgeous.
*46:07*
It's exactly what I've wanted.
*46:08*
TVs don't do it, but it w man is a good.
*46:10*
Yeah, I'm
*46:13*
I'm looking forward to it for things like the PS TV or the Wii U or the PS3 and stuff.
*46:14*
So basically all of that stuff.
*46:19*
It basically covers a broader range of of use cases that weren't possible on the Tink Vivex.
*46:20*
Uh and I've wanted for a very long time and now it's here, which is phenomenal.
*46:27*
But yeah, I mean even if you are using it for the same stuff as the 5X, like just
*46:33*
the upgrade in terms of output quality and when you add in stuff like those uh all the the new masks and filters and the tweakability of all of that
*46:37*
It's pretty nuts.
*46:46*
It's a really great device so far.
*46:48*
Mike just really he's out he's outdone himself.
*46:51*
It's truly uh the man is a genius.
*46:55*
He is.
*46:59*
It's absolutely absurd to see the stuff that he's been able to pull off and even the things that he's been able to retroactively go back and add to the 5X.
*46:59*
Even before the four K started full development, just he what he's been able to squeeze out of the five X.
*47:09*
And beyond that, he also
*47:15*
picks the right people to work with.
*47:17*
Like he brought in uh Mark from Blurbusters to help out on several features.
*47:19*
Yeah.
*47:23*
And Mark is an absolute expert when it comes to anything motion related on displays.
*47:23*
Nobody knows more about this stuff than him.
*47:28*
And Mike went right to him and they helped he helped uh share some of his uh algorithms and techniques for things like implementing Black Frame Insertion.
*47:30*
The uh
*47:39*
the pull down, the two by two pull down uh technique, which actually allows like say 30 frames per second interlaced content to behave as if it were actually progressive.
*47:40*
In a nutshell, very simple explanation.
*47:51*
Yeah, break it way down.
*47:54*
But it's it's really, really cool, uh all those features.
*47:55*
So the tink is just in a great spot.
*47:58*
Yeah.
*48:01*
I'm looking forward to it.
*48:01*
I'm very, very excited to uh save up and get one eventually and add it to the setup and then have it
*48:02*
for now be what I want until I get something else that makes me want to do something.
*48:10*
It's hard to imagine like them going much further than this though.
*48:15*
That's the thing.
*48:18*
On the scaling side, yeah, I can't
*48:19*
It's gonna take something else to to cre like there's not much more you can do.
*48:22*
I think the only thing I would add on top of it is what uh
*48:26*
uh Dan and them are doing with the direct HTMI mods.
*48:29*
Yeah.
*48:33*
Uh on consoles.
*48:34*
Like that stuff is combining that actually is really interesting.
*48:36*
But basically being able to get that perfect uh
*48:39*
digital output from a console that eliminating eliminating the analog from it completely is really awesome.
*48:42*
I remember you shared
*48:50*
a picture of Metal Gear Solid 2.
*48:53*
You were using the gem on the PS2 into the tank.
*48:55*
And it's exactly I think you had shared that right around the time
*48:58*
that Konami confirmed that it was basically uh just ten eighty p I think for Mergsaul 2 and 3 in the collection.
*49:03*
It's seven seven twenty.
*49:10*
Oh, it's seven twenty I thought that was just switch.
*49:11*
It's seven twenty across the board.
*49:13*
It's seven twenty.
*49:14*
It's scale they actually have a little asterisk where it's uh scaled up to seven uh ten eighty p.
*49:15*
I rem okay.
*49:22*
So that was what was happening.
*49:23*
I've seen the foot I've seen direct capture from PS5 and it's just 720.
*49:24*
Oh boy.
*49:28*
It's the same it's the same as the PS3 and 360 HD collection, which tells me that they, you know, they just had
*49:29*
what Blue Point produced and they couldn't modify it much.
*49:35*
Yeah.
*49:40*
And maybe they just built a wrapper around that port.
*49:40*
Makes me
*49:44*
That makes me wonder what they're going to do with four.
*49:45*
Assuming there is a Master Collection Volume 2, and it's has Metal Gear Solid 4 in it.
*49:49*
What how they would get that off PS3, I guess.
*49:56*
It's the only one.
*50:00*
Exactly.
*50:02*
Yeah.
*50:03*
But anyway, the Metal Gear Solid 2
*50:04*
screenshots that you shared of off of a PS2 pure digital signal into a 4K upscale, it looks immaculate.
*50:06*
It's amazing.
*50:14*
So I guess that's what's next.
*50:17*
Digitize everything.
*50:19*
Absolutely.
*50:20*
Oh man.
*50:21*
There was kind of one more ranging topic I wanted to talk to you about because
*50:22*
I I think I feel a lot the same way as you do, I think.
*50:28*
And I've been a little frustrated lately.
*50:33*
And I think you have been too, but it just
*50:36*
The physical media feels like it's going away.
*50:40*
And just more and more stories come out and happen and bum me out.
*50:45*
Like
*50:51*
Alan Wake 2 or the Like a Dragon Guiding games, those are digital only.
*50:52*
So they're gonna be straight digital to home consoles without physical releases.
*50:57*
Up until Limited Run, for example, just announced their physical versions of Persona 3 and 4, those were digital only from Atlas.
*51:02*
But then
*51:10*
We have consoles shutting down digital stores.
*51:12*
Like the 3DS and Wii U just shut down this year.
*51:14*
360, I think, is next year.
*51:17*
Things are just disappearing, it feels like.
*51:19*
And
*51:22*
I don't w how how are you feeling about all this?
*51:23*
I mean, I I don't like it obviously.
*51:28*
It's not great.
*51:30*
I mean I mean I think so the thing about
*51:31*
It's more than just preservation, right?
*51:35*
I wouldn't say physical media really by itself is actually what I would consider true preservation.
*51:38*
True preservation is actually digital, but
*51:44*
a non-DRM version of of the game that can be saved and stored and archived.
*51:47*
Yeah.
*51:53*
That is what we need for actual preservation.
*51:53*
But of course
*51:56*
Not gonna get that with console stores because they are proprietary.
*51:57*
Uh unless the the console is hacked, that's also uh a problem.
*52:01*
So like the Xbox stuff, uh Xbox One, for instance, and up has not been hacked as far as I know.
*52:05*
Which, you know, good on their security, but for the future, it could be bad.
*52:12*
Yeah.
*52:18*
But yeah, that's uh I I do worry about that kind of stuff just disappearing, the closure of
*52:18*
these sort of like bespoke console stores.
*52:28*
Like so far it hasn't been a disaster simply because of, well, the pirates.
*52:30*
They've had to once again save save the day as as always.
*52:35*
in terms of uh you know downloading this stuff and making it available.
*52:39*
It sucks that that's the only way that we can kind of get there, you know?
*52:44*
Mm-hmm.
*52:48*
But that's kind of where we're at right now.
*52:48*
And it shouldn't have to be that way.
*52:51*
And but there's a risk of that becoming more difficult as we go forward.
*52:53*
And that's uh that's the concern.
*52:56*
Yeah.
*52:58*
It
*52:59*
There are some, like, at least temporary glimpses of hope.
*53:01*
Uh recently PlayStation just revealed the the revision to the PS5.
*53:07*
Slim, I suppose.
*53:13*
I guess it's PS5 Slim is what the community will call it, I supp.
*53:14*
But the I've I think
*53:18*
Maybe everyone assumes this, I'm not sure.
*53:22*
Uh I assumed at least that that detachable drive that was rumored was going to be external.
*53:24*
And uh in fact it's seems to be an internal sort of
*53:30*
You just kind of plug it in on the inside and then put a plate over it, which turns it into a PS5 with a disk drive, which seems really cool.
*53:34*
Yeah.
*53:41*
But
*53:42*
You know, they clearly it's just one skew that they're producing and stuff, right?
*53:43*
And I in this case, after seeing the way they implemented it, I get the feeling it's more about simplifying manufacturing than anything else.
*53:48*
Like they just have one skew they're making.
*53:55*
Yeah, they make one one box and one drive and you can either sell them together or not, but like there's no it's not two separate machines.
*53:57*
that need to be made.
*54:07*
And I think that is obviously going to be a money saving on the manufacturing side.
*54:08*
We'll see what actually happens because it is still effectively being sold the same way the current PS5 is
*54:14*
Where you have the the the main version with the disk drive built in.
*54:21*
Only it's you know now detachable, but it's effectively built in, and then you have the digital one.
*54:25*
And the difference now is you can add the drive to the digital one.
*54:30*
So
*54:34*
I have some concerns, but it doesn't seem as bad as I had feared.
*54:35*
Compare that to the leaks from Microsoft with the FTC files.
*54:40*
And there's at least at one point, a vision of digitizing the Series X completely adorably all digital.
*54:47*
Making it look like just a a cylinder.
*54:59*
There was a quote in those slides I went through them yesterday.
*55:02*
And obviously this is just internal marketing speak.
*55:05*
It's not an actual quote from
*55:07*
a user but it's the quote was Xbox has made buying games digitally as easy and affordable as disc plus I can play those games on multiple devices I already own XCloud streaming blah blah blah uh I don't miss my disk drive at all
*55:09*
Which I don't feel like I don't feel like anyone would talk like that in the sense of Nope.
*55:23*
People have been able to buy their collections digitally basically from the dawn of the PS4 and Xbox One, so
*55:28*
If someone wanted to go digital all the way, they've been doing that for the last decade.
*55:34*
Uh I don't know about as affordable as this.
*55:39*
Um it would I would think be
*55:45*
It depends on uh the timing, I guess, because eventually digital games just get so cheap and on sale all the time.
*55:47*
I don't believe that.
*55:53*
You don't?
*55:55*
No?
*55:55*
I've got to do that.
*55:56*
Not the big ones, that's fair.
*56:02*
Like you don't see that many.
*56:04*
Like
*56:06*
And this is probably why they would want them uh physical to go away, because these these things get cheap.
*56:07*
You know, basically physical console games sort of have this like curve to them where they start out expensive, they sink down to like dirt cheap and then they get expensive again in many cases.
*56:12*
Not all of them, right?
*56:21*
But like you buy a lot of these things used or just, you know, after they've been out for a while and it's super low price and you go to the actual official store and
*56:22*
The price is not so good.
*56:32*
I just saw uh someone post, it was actually Jez Corden, uh post that Battlefield 2042 is
*56:34*
$69.
*56:41*
99 on the Xbox store right now.
*56:42*
Oh my gosh.
*56:44*
And Bad Four 2042 is $7 on Amazon right now
*56:44*
I mean that you're you're absolutely right about that.
*56:49*
Physically, the physical disc version, right?
*56:52*
So like why is that still $69.
*56:54*
99 on the Xbox store?
*56:57*
Like you that's not gonna happen with the in-game disc version.
*56:59*
It's it's it has been sold for it's obviously on sale right now, but it's been sold for so much less for so long.
*57:04*
And like if you you take that away, and what incentives do they ever have to really drop prices outside of very specific sales?
*57:11*
This is this is true, yeah.
*57:18*
So about that though, these you know, these physical
*57:21*
Physical games being cheaper, right, at for certain periods of d and then years later it'll become more expensive.
*57:25*
Like I saw a copy of Wii Sports for forty dollars one day
*57:31*
It's like what why why?
*57:35*
So it's they were everywhere.
*57:38*
But then you have examples, I think of Halo Infinite, and I'm actually very curious if for Forts of Motorsport.
*57:40*
is actually on the disc all the way, but gosh.
*57:48*
See, so then then you're still dependent on a digital version essentially, and the disk is just acting like a key.
*57:52*
Yeah.
*58:00*
So frankly at this point, I'll just say like it when it comes to Xbox, I feel like the battle is lost.
*58:00*
Like they are their services company.
*58:06*
Most of the fans that are into Xbox, they don't care about discs and they push back against it anyway.
*58:08*
They're happy with Game Pass, they're happy with uh with everything else there, and that's totally fine.
*58:14*
I have nothing against that at all.
*58:19*
But given that that is the primary audience it seems on the Xbox, I don't think there's that many people left that actually even care about this stuff.
*58:21*
They have successfully made it so that
*58:30*
Most people aren't gonna really care about getting discs on their platform.
*58:32*
Yeah.
*58:37*
Which is, you know, I think that's what they've wanted, you know.
*58:37*
That's they'll make more money that way for sure.
*58:39*
Oh yeah.
*58:42*
But uh
*58:43*
I think it's a you know, it does suck and it definitely for some of us like I have a lot of you know Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One games on disc.
*58:44*
You know, things like backwards compatibility, most of my backwards compatibility uh playtime, it's dependent on these disks, right?
*58:53*
So like all of their platform suddenly goes all digital.
*59:02*
It's like, well, I can't use this anymore.
*59:05*
Uh, which feels like a step back.
*59:07*
It's just I understand them not focusing on it, but getting rid of it entirely really annoys me.
*59:09*
And I think that's gonna have an impact because I do still think to some degree, at least
*59:16*
Having a presence in stores does matter.
*59:20*
Like it does sort of color people's impressions of these things in a way that I think is important.
*59:23*
Uh if you're completely digital and you basically chased out of stores or barely present in them, I don't know.
*59:29*
I don't think that that's gonna be great for them either.
*59:35*
Especially, you know, just coming back from Japan where like physical media is huge and it's not about collecting, it's just availability and pricing more than anything, I would say, because games are everywhere, they are really easy to find.
*59:40*
And and you know, uh the prices do drop more on the physical stuff pretty quickly.
*59:52*
Especially if you buy used, you know, Japanese used is basically like, you know, American GameStop.
*59:58*
Well, it's actually bet it's a
*01:00:03*
Japanese use is better than the unshrink wrapped GameStop New, I would say.
*01:00:05*
Uh but I can imagine.
*01:00:10*
But um yeah, like I don't know, I feel
*01:00:12*
It just feels like cutting off some of their audience for no reason.
*01:00:16*
Like, yes, the majority are probably happy with digital, but
*01:00:20*
I don't know.
*01:00:24*
It's once they go down this path, it feels like that's it.
*01:00:25*
There's there's no going back, and the discs are just dead for the Xbox at that point, if that happens.
*01:00:28*
Uh but thankfully this was a leak.
*01:00:34*
This thing, you know, it's three years or four years, however long ago this thing was being discussed.
*01:00:35*
I guess it wouldn't it would be less than that given when the Series X came out.
*01:00:41*
But uh
*01:00:45*
Maybe this gives them pause.
*01:00:47*
Yeah.
*01:00:49*
They haven't officially announced it, right?
*01:00:49*
Like maybe they like, oh, maybe we should actually not do the all digital thing.
*01:00:51*
Who knows?
*01:00:56*
But
*01:00:57*
We'll see.
*01:00:58*
I'm hopeful that they can pivot at least in some way.
*01:00:59*
Maybe maybe an external detachable drive at the very least, like provide
*01:01:02*
an option at for now.
*01:01:07*
We'll see.
*01:01:09*
I am kinda I am happy to see Sony, at least for now, sticking with it.
*01:01:10*
You know, f Horizon Forbidden West is coming on two discs, the complete version of it and
*01:01:16*
Final Fantasy VII, same deal, so they're at least keeping the disc based versions alive, which is is
*01:01:21*
Yeah.
*01:01:29*
At least when they release the disc version it's uh it's like a complete game that you can install and play.
*01:01:29*
And yeah, some games need patches, absolutely, but I think that's actually not true for the majority.
*01:01:36*
Like the patches can be like quality of life things, but what you have on the disc is perfectly fine.
*01:01:42*
And if years later you need to get back into it and play play it.
*01:01:48*
It's it's ready to go.
*01:01:51*
I hate dealing with the digital stuff on if you had a console in a closet for like two or three years and you pull it out, it's just a nightmare.
*01:01:53*
Yeah, it ain't good.
*01:02:05*
Ugh.
*01:02:06*
I was surprised to hear you you remark that physical seems is very alive over in Japan.
*01:02:08*
I just
*01:02:14*
Oh yeah.
*01:02:15*
I I always hear about it.
*01:02:15*
I've never been, but I always hear the space is so valuable, so I guess I've just inferred that
*01:02:17*
physical would be less popular oh in in that market, but you were just there and it it sounds like stuff was everywhere.
*01:02:23*
Yeah.
*01:02:31*
The the the sheer number of them it's uh
*01:02:32*
It's it's impressive.
*01:02:36*
And like I said, I don't think it's mostly about collecting games.
*01:02:37*
I think it's more about like availability because it's like
*01:02:40*
You just walk you just walk anywhere and you're just gonna pass a shop that has a game that you might want.
*01:02:44*
Like it's all over the place.
*01:02:49*
It's very easy.
*01:02:51*
Like even the day I flew out is when Ease 10 came out and
*01:02:51*
Sure enough, just that the game comes out that morning.
*01:02:55*
I just go to a store at the airport and they had it.
*01:02:58*
They had all the versions.
*01:03:01*
They had the extra merch, all that stuff.
*01:03:01*
It's like, all right.
*01:03:03*
Uh you normally don't find that at airports in the US where you just can find all the like a game comes out and on release day it's at the airport store, right?
*01:03:05*
You you can barely find that at a Target here
*01:03:15*
That's what I mean.
*01:03:19*
So like that that's how it goes on that front.
*01:03:20*
And I think it really is just that availability factor.
*01:03:22*
And then that's why there's a big use market there as well, because people are buying games, selling them back, and you know it's cheaper in the long run.
*01:03:25*
Uh than just buying digital and eating the cost.
*01:03:32*
Mm-hmm.
*01:03:35*
Yeah.
*01:03:35*
I'm I'm hopeful that it'll stuff will stay around for
*01:03:36*
maybe another generation, but it does seem like it's we're just staring down the barrel of a an all-digital platform going forward.
*01:03:41*
I hope I hope whatever Switch 2 Super Switch, I hope it has
*01:03:49*
a physical component.
*01:03:53*
I do too.
*01:03:54*
I think Nintendo would be extremely dumb to uh get rid of that.
*01:03:55*
Because their their physical market is big.
*01:04:00*
not just the consoles but the games on the shelves or whatever.
*01:04:10*
But the Nintendo section is always full.
*01:04:13*
Yeah, I found it's interesting how that varies.
*01:04:16*
Like, you know, 'cause I visited these shops in Japan, Europe, and multiple countries in Europe.
*01:04:18*
and the US and the US is the worst in this regard.
*01:04:22*
We're like the console sections are are mostly pitiful.
*01:04:25*
Uh Switch has the most for sure, but there's barely anything left it feels.
*01:04:30*
It's it's really like shocking.
*01:04:34*
Europe, the stores are still like here in Germany especially like the stores are still pretty packed with stuff.
*01:04:36*
Uh Switch and PlayStation definitely have the largest sections for sure.
*01:04:41*
Uh Xbox has definitely shrunk in recent years with the rise of the digital stuff.
*01:04:45*
PCs has a surprisingly large uh retail presence here.
*01:04:51*
Germany's like one of the only countries left where PC games have a big retail presence.
*01:04:56*
That's cool.
*01:05:01*
That's really cool.
*01:05:02*
Like it's really wild.
*01:05:03*
Like it's it's surprising actually how much
*01:05:04*
it has going on.
*01:05:07*
Now, you know, some of them are special German disc versions, others are just codes in a box.
*01:05:09*
But either way, there's still retail stuff happening, which is cool.
*01:05:15*
Yeah.
*01:05:19*
Makes me happy to hear it.
*01:05:20*
At least it's in other places.
*01:05:22*
And if you like simulators, you know, bow simulators, you like your farming simulator, all that kind of stuff.
*01:05:23*
Like they it's no joke, they actually do have like dedicated sections just for that stuff.
*01:05:30*
It's they're very popular here.
*01:05:36*
Okay.
*01:05:38*
Explains those Nintendo Directs where it was just farming simulator after farming simulator.
*01:05:39*
Well, those are more like farming games like Harvest Moon.
*01:05:44*
I'm talking about the hardcore like the simulators.
*01:05:48*
Like the simulator.
*01:05:51*
Like, you know, the
*01:05:52*
F uh farming simulator, construction simulator, train simulator, you know, like fire truck simulator, uh all that kind of stuff, like airport simulator, it's that type of thing.
*01:05:55*
Oh, the the sim sim.
*01:06:05*
The big sim.
*01:06:07*
That's so d so are there like rigs and stuff to you to buy with it?
*01:06:09*
Like here's your tractor controller or your semi-trucks to
*01:06:13*
Hundred percent.
*01:06:17*
They do they they do have the uh the the farming simulator controller.
*01:06:19*
It's got like a wheel with the little peg sticking out so you can kind of wheel it around quickly.
*01:06:23*
Uh it straight up has that those are actually in the shops.
*01:06:29*
And it's it's it's hilarious and awesome.
*01:06:33*
That is so cool.
*01:06:36*
That's basically the German equivalent of like dencha to go.
*01:06:37*
You know, where it's like you got the train controller there.
*01:06:40*
It's like here we've got the the farming simulator controller.
*01:06:43*
That's so cool.
*01:06:46*
I I never would have thought that or done that.
*01:06:47*
That's
*01:06:50*
That feels like a story of like someone should explore.
*01:06:51*
It's big enough where I've been to like a media mark before they had a giant multi-screen setup and a like a big cockpit chair to sit into, and then they have the tractor controller and like
*01:06:53*
You climb in and basically driving their giant tractor set up at the store.
*01:07:04*
Wow.
*01:07:09*
That's that's so cool.
*01:07:09*
I would totally hop in that.
*01:07:13*
If I was at the shop, I would definitely sit down and try it out.
*01:07:15*
'Cause w I'm not gonna have that at home.
*01:07:18*
I don't have the room for that.
*01:07:20*
That's so neat.
*01:07:23*
Ugh.
*01:07:24*
Well, thank you so much, John, for for taking time out of your day to talk to me about all this stuff.
*01:07:25*
I've I've had a real blast.
*01:07:31*
chatting with you today.
*01:07:33*
So thank you so much.
*01:07:34*
Oh, I'm happy to join.
*01:07:35*
It was a good time.
*01:07:37*
Where can the people I mean the people can find your work at Digital Foundry?
*01:07:39*
I mean, that's not really a question.
*01:07:43*
Uh correct.
*01:07:44*
Spider Man video just came uh just came out.
*01:07:45*
Other things.
*01:07:51*
So yeah, I mean, you know, I'm on all the social medias.
*01:07:52*
At the Dark One X still.
*01:07:55*
Um also be sure to go on Steam and Wish list R Z and the Jewel of Faramore.
*01:07:57*
Yes, the CDI looking game.
*01:08:03*
Yes, I got to do some some design work on that, and it's my buddy Seth's first full big game production, and it's really cool.
*01:08:06*
Okay.
*01:08:15*
So show some love, people.
*01:08:15*
We need to make it a success.
*01:08:18*
Well there there will be links to that and everything else in the show notes.
*01:08:21*
If you'd like to find more of my work, you could head over to maxfrequency.
*01:08:25*
net for my writing.
*01:08:30*
You could check out my other show, Chapter Select.
*01:08:32*
uh where we take a series and and bounce back and forth through its entries, exploring their evolution design and legacy.
*01:08:34*
Right now we're in season six, which is covering the mainline Pokemon games.
*01:08:40*
So those episodes are coming out
*01:08:44*
And then we've got Metroid Prime and Castlevania coming up for next year as well.
*01:08:47*
So you can uh go check that show out as well.
*01:08:52*
But until next time, thank you all so much for listening and adios.
*01:08:54*