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Max Roberts: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Max Frequency Podcast. 00:00
Max Roberts: I am your host, Max Roberts, and I have the honor and privilege of being joined by Cortex and Relay co-founder, Myke Hurley. 00:02
Max Roberts: Hey Myke, how's it going? 00:10
Myke Hurley: Hi, Max. 00:11
Myke Hurley: Very good. 00:12
Myke Hurley: Thank you so much for having me on the show. 00:13
Max Roberts: Thank you for coming on. 00:14
Max Roberts: We've been back and forth for a little bit, so it's very exciting to get someone else from Relay on the show. 00:16
Myke Hurley: Yes. 00:19
Max Roberts: I want to open up. 00:22
Max Roberts: with a selfish question, which is not in the show notes. 00:24
Max Roberts: I want it to come in. 00:26
Max Roberts: A few years ago, oh gosh, I don't even know when. 00:30
Max Roberts: I actually did look up which connected thanks to Pod Search and uh David Smith. 00:32
Max Roberts: Um 00:37
Max Roberts: But I remember on Connected one time you mentioned how much you were loving Vampire Weekend's Father the Bride. 00:37
Max Roberts: And then a couple of years ago they put out a new album, Only God Was Above Us. 00:44
Max Roberts: And I did not hear what you thought about that. 00:47
Max Roberts: And so I just want to know what you thought about that album. 00:49
Myke Hurley: Oh man. 00:52
Myke Hurley: See, um s this is where I'm so bad of album names, so I'm now having to Google this one. 00:53
Max Roberts: Look it up. 00:58
Max Roberts: It's the one with the subway picture on the bus in the newspaper. 00:59
Myke Hurley: Only God was a bother. 01:00
Myke Hurley: Oh, I really liked this album. 01:03
Myke Hurley: It didn't stick with me in the same way that Father the Bride did, but I really enjoyed it. 01:05
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:05
Myke Hurley: I I don't think there is a 01:11
Myke Hurley: vampire weekend album that I have not enjoyed. 01:14
Myke Hurley: Like many of my favorite bands have produced albums where I'm like that one I can skip. 01:17
Myke Hurley: And that is like talking as an Arctic Monkeys fan. 01:23
Myke Hurley: That is the Arctic Monkeys fans whole thing. 01:26
Myke Hurley: Of like there are just multiple albums in their back catalogue which you can be like 01:28
Myke Hurley: I think I'm gonna give that one a pass. 01:33
Myke Hurley: It's not going into the playlists. 01:35
Myke Hurley: But I don't feel that way about Vampire Weekend. 01:36
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:37
Myke Hurley: And and I think one of the reasons is they 01:39
Myke Hurley: They've never really tried to change their sound in a significant way, I feel like. 01:42
Myke Hurley: Like everything that they've done, to me at least, feels like an adaptation of what they've been known for. 01:47
Myke Hurley: And so, you know 01:53
Myke Hurley: It does all m kind of mold together for me. 01:54
Myke Hurley: But yeah, I enjoyed this one a lot. 01:57
Max Roberts: Okay, good. 01:58
Max Roberts: I've just been dying to know for two years, and I'm like, eh. 01:59
Myke Hurley: You're a big vampire weekend fan then? 02:02
Max Roberts: I am. 02:04
Max Roberts: Uh I've been listening to them since my buddy introduced me to them in college. 02:05
Max Roberts: Not ironically, nonstop. 02:09
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 02:09
Max Roberts: And Abby and I actually got to go see them uh on tour for this album. 02:11
Max Roberts: I guess a couple of years ago for our anniversary, they were up in St. 02:16
Max Roberts: Augustine, I'm in Florida. 02:18
Max Roberts: So then an amphitheater and that was a great show. 02:20
Max Roberts: And actually we paid more in merch than we did for the tickets, um, which I think is probably a concert experience. 02:23
Myke Hurley: Oh yeah. 02:27
Myke Hurley: Yes. 02:29
Max Roberts: But it was funny because she she doesn't listen to them unless I'm playing it in the car and she left the concert going, I knew all of those songs. 02:29
Max Roberts: I didn't realize you played this so much. 02:38
Max Roberts: I'm like, yes, I play it all the time. 02:40
Myke Hurley: Their music is also just so um widely used. 02:41
Myke Hurley: There's a band that I love called Jungle, which if you've never heard any of Jungle's music, I recommend it. 02:46
Myke Hurley: Uh but you've probably heard Jungle's music because it is used in so many ads. 02:52
Myke Hurley: Um I wouldn't really know how to describe them so much as they're like 02:58
Myke Hurley: kind of like a jazzy band, but it's very like poppy. 03:03
Myke Hurley: I really love their work. 03:09
Myke Hurley: Um I was introduced to jungle at Pitchfork Music Festival in Paris. 03:11
Myke Hurley: This is uh probably ten years ago now. 03:17
Myke Hurley: And it's the only gig I've ever been to where 03:20
Myke Hurley: No one really knew who they were, but everybody was dancing. 03:25
Myke Hurley: Because they were one of the lower acts on the card 03:29
Myke Hurley: Um, and it was just absolutely fantastic. 03:33
Myke Hurley: They're they're brilliant. 03:36
Myke Hurley: Like I I really recommend checking out John Gall. 03:37
Myke Hurley: Like go and listen to their like 03:40
Myke Hurley: playlists, you know, that like m Apple Music make or whatever of the essentials and you'll have a good time. 03:43
Max Roberts: Duly noted. 03:50
Max Roberts: I'm gonna look that up later today. 03:51
Myke Hurley: Yeah, you trust me, it's good. 03:52
Max Roberts: That's gonna be a fun time. 03:52
Myke Hurley: I want to know what you think, but I think you're a dig it. 03:54
Max Roberts: Okay, I will do that. 03:56
Max Roberts: Now what we're really here to talk about, which is podcasts. 03:59
Max Roberts: Is it podcast about podcasts? 04:03
Max Roberts: That happens every now and then. 04:05
Max Roberts: It's podception. 04:06
Myke Hurley: I feel like I haven't done that. 04:07
Myke Hurley: Well actually I was gonna say I haven't done that in a while. 04:08
Myke Hurley: I'll do it on a monthly basis and member shows. 04:10
Myke Hurley: But I like to talk about podcasts. 04:12
Max Roberts: This is true. 04:13
Myke Hurley: I have feelings. 04:14
Max Roberts: Yeah, I have feelings too, and I thought, who better than a co founder of a podcast network? 04:15
Max Roberts: Uh going on, is it sixteen, seventeen years this year of relay? 04:22
Max Roberts: It's somewhere in there. 04:26
Myke Hurley: Oh, uh no, surely not. 04:26
Myke Hurley: I've you said that information. 04:29
Myke Hurley: It's twelve. 04:30
Max Roberts: Twelve. 04:31
Myke Hurley: Twelve. 04:31
Myke Hurley: Yeah, but it's it's it's that is my time. 04:32
Myke Hurley: So sixteen years. 04:37
Myke Hurley: I've been producing podcasts for sixteen years. 04:38
Max Roberts: That's what it is. 04:40
Myke Hurley: But relay has been around for twelve years this year. 04:41
Max Roberts: Twelve years. 04:43
Max Roberts: Okay. 04:44
Max Roberts: There we go. 04:44
Max Roberts: The math has been corrected. 04:45
Myke Hurley: Mm-hmm. 04:46
Max Roberts: And to kind of get in the groove of talking about podcasts, since you're on 04:47
Max Roberts: quite a few. 04:53
Max Roberts: I wanted to know there's a saying and I don't know who originally said it, but basically to be an author you have to read. 04:53
Max Roberts: Uh I do remember Stephen King talking about this in his book on writing. 04:59
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 05:00
Max Roberts: You know, he reads all the time and Stephen King writes a lot. 05:03
Max Roberts: And so I kind of think that's true of podcasting as well. 05:06
Max Roberts: To be a podcaster, you've got to listen to podcast. 05:09
Max Roberts: And I'm curious 05:13
Max Roberts: what you listen to, I know you're a kind of funny fan. 05:14
Max Roberts: Um I obviously the rest is history, which derailed me for a little bit during the research phase of the show. 05:18
Myke Hurley: Yep. 05:18
Max Roberts: I'm like, Oh, I should listen to the show so I get a sense for what Myke likes and I went down the uh 05:24
Max Roberts: I chose JFK as the assassination. 05:28
Max Roberts: It was like seven episode derailment of my whole queue. 05:32
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 05:32
Max Roberts: I was like, well, I'm cooked. 05:34
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 05:35
Myke Hurley: Oh, I had like a three to four month around. 05:36
Myke Hurley: I didn't listen to it. 05:39
Myke Hurley: Once I discovered the rest of his history at the end of 2024 05:40
Myke Hurley: I didn't listen to any other podcasts uh in overclass for months. 05:46
Myke Hurley: Um, with the exception you mentioned kind of funny. 05:50
Myke Hurley: Um I 05:53
Myke Hurley: Would say I more listen slash watch their shows. 05:54
Myke Hurley: Like they do produce podcasts in the traditional way, but they have a really nice studio and do video and they're always in person. 05:58
Myke Hurley: So I actually will listen to those in YouTube with the YouTube app. 06:05
Myke Hurley: So I can go between video and audio. 06:10
Myke Hurley: Um it would actually probably be a real nice use for Spotify 'cause they do publish their stuff on Spotify. 06:13
Myke Hurley: But I'm so ingrained into YouTube right now. 06:18
Myke Hurley: that that it makes a lot of sense for me. 06:21
Myke Hurley: Um by and large, the vast majority of my podcast listening is to kind of funny 06:22
Myke Hurley: Uh they are a mostly video game um focused podcast network. 06:28
Myke Hurley: They are based in San Francisco. 06:33
Myke Hurley: It's an eleven-person team. 06:35
Myke Hurley: Um they have a studio there and they're all in person. 06:37
Myke Hurley: Um I started listening to their work during COVID, so they were distributed. 06:40
Myke Hurley: They had been in person before, then they were just doing them over Discord, then they went back in person again. 06:45
Myke Hurley: Um and I listen to kind of funny for a few reasons. 06:51
Myke Hurley: One, uh, it's not tech they're talking about. 06:55
Myke Hurley: They're talking about games and media, and so it doesn't feel like work. 06:57
Myke Hurley: um when I'm i listening to their shows that I'm not having to think about things that I would otherwise be talking about um on an almost daily basis. 07:01
Myke Hurley: But really they could talk about literally anything and I would listen because at this point I'm in for the personalities and because they are all in person, I think it enhances their ability to have close relationships 07:10
Myke Hurley: Um and so I'm, you know, I'm super in on that. 07:24
Myke Hurley: And I really enjoy being one of the people that listens to basically all of the podcasts that they make. 07:26
Myke Hurley: So I get all the references. 07:32
Myke Hurley: Um and so like I probably on a daily basis listen to at least two to three hours of kind of funny content every day. 07:35
Myke Hurley: Uh 'cause that is the kind of output that they produce. 07:44
Myke Hurley: But I listen to lots of stuff uh just in Overcast. 07:47
Myke Hurley: And so, you know, I obviously listen to shows that my friends and co-hosts produce. 07:51
Myke Hurley: They're basically 07:55
Myke Hurley: Well I wouldn't say they're the they're not the only tech shows. 07:57
Myke Hurley: They were for a while they were the only tech focused shows I was listening to. 07:59
Myke Hurley: Um stuff like App Stories, MacPower Users, shows like that. 08:03
Myke Hurley: Um but I've also recently started listening much more to the Verge Cast, um, Hard Fork. 08:07
Myke Hurley: And waveform, and these are all for different reasons. 08:16
Myke Hurley: Waveform I enjoy in the same way that I enjoy kind of funny stuff because it's 08:19
Myke Hurley: a group of guys who really enjoy each other's time and they have fun talking about the thing they're talking about. 08:25
Myke Hurley: Um but waveform, vergecast and hard fork are all because 08:31
Myke Hurley: Uh uh for a lot of the time they are talking about aspects of technology that I am not diving into in the same way that I do Apple. 08:36
Myke Hurley: So I I I still I care about tech and I want to know. 08:46
Myke Hurley: And especially with the with with where tech is now with AI. 08:49
Myke Hurley: I feel like I need to kind of keep abreast of it a little bit, of like just understanding what are the broad trends. 08:55
Myke Hurley: Um, and I feel like those shows, like The Verge Cast and Hard Fork especially, give me that kind of 09:01
Myke Hurley: top level of like what is going on, which is a lot of the time that is my question. 09:09
Myke Hurley: What is going on here? 09:14
Myke Hurley: Like I see headlines and I don't understand it and I don't want to read like 09:15
Myke Hurley: a bunch of posts on X and so I get people who I respect to to give me those. 09:21
Myke Hurley: But yeah, then the rest is history. 09:28
Myke Hurley: I love the rest is history. 09:29
Myke Hurley: And then there's 09:31
Myke Hurley: There's just like a bunch like a smattering huge list of other shows that that I listen to, you know, like across uh uh some in tech, mostly in kind of like entertainment is how I think of them. 09:32
Myke Hurley: Oh, uh, The Town is one of my other favorite podcasts. 09:44
Myke Hurley: Um, this is Matt Bellony of Park and it's a Hollywood uh show. 09:47
Max Roberts: That's a lot. 09:51
Max Roberts: That's a lot of listening, actually, when you s 09:53
Myke Hurley: I listen to to tons of podcasts. 09:55
Myke Hurley: I look, I am a podcaster because I love podcasting. 09:57
Myke Hurley: Like and and I 10:00
Myke Hurley: You know, I discovered podcasts in I don't know, but probably like 2007-2008. 10:01
Myke Hurley: Like I was I was loading video podcasts onto a video iPod. 10:07
Myke Hurley: Like that was how I mainly listened to and watched podcasts. 10:11
Myke Hurley: I I really cared more about video podcasts than audio podcasts. 10:15
Myke Hurley: That's when I started because it was so difficult to do both that it didn't really matter what people did, it was like so technically complicated to do either 10:18
Myke Hurley: So you know, like this is uh Dignation was my first podcast, but stuff like Twit. 10:26
Myke Hurley: Like I was listening to Twit from like Twit episode two or something like that. 10:31
Myke Hurley: I started listening to that show. 10:34
Myke Hurley: Um, like you know, the i i and it goes through a lot of the stuff that Twit did and into five by five and like this is the stuff that I cared about and have continued to care about and I cared about it so much 10:36
Myke Hurley: I felt like I wanted to do it and then I cared about it so much more, I felt like there was absolutely nothing else that I could do with my professional life than to be a podcaster. 10:49
Myke Hurley: And then I made it happen. 10:58
Max Roberts: Yeah, I I discovered podcasts around the same time uh for Super Smash Bros. 11:00
Max Roberts: Brawl. 11:05
Max Roberts: It was the hype cycle for that game was so huge in my life, especially when they were doing like daily updates on the dojo and it was just really they 11:06
Myke Hurley: Yep. 11:11
Max Roberts: They did something I think a lot of game developers try to capture today, which is this sort of zeitgeist before the launch and like updating and keeping in touch. 11:18
Max Roberts: But really Nintendo and Sakurai did it so well and the community just latched onto it so hard. 11:25
Myke Hurley: Yep. 11:29
Max Roberts: And still to this day, I mean, a new Smash Brothers game, the cycle for it is infectious. 11:31
Max Roberts: And so that inspired me to make 11:36
Max Roberts: a show which then uh you know was on YouTube. 11:39
Max Roberts: It was basically me going through the updates like a like a PowerPoint slide. 11:42
Max Roberts: I was using Windows Movie Maker, you know, the whole thing. 11:46
Max Roberts: And then that led to other shows and here we are, I can still do it, for fun and all this stuff. 11:48
Max Roberts: And they just kind of have this I don't know, they can be infectious. 11:54
Max Roberts: They have this 12:00
Max Roberts: It's more it radio, right? 12:02
Max Roberts: It's intimate. 12:04
Max Roberts: You feel like you're connected, and then there's this on as long as the show goes on, there's a relationship between the listener and the the host or hosts. 12:05
Myke Hurley: I think that there's a 12:13
Myke Hurley: Couple of things. 12:14
Myke Hurley: One, that is it, right? 12:15
Myke Hurley: Like that y you feel like you're a part of a conversation because you're hearing a conversation in such intima such an intimate way. 12:16
Myke Hurley: But there was a long time ago uh 12:23
Myke Hurley: I I don't remember the exact title of the article, but there was a an article that I read about the popularity of pro wrestling podcasts. 12:25
Myke Hurley: Pro wrestling podcasts are so popular. 12:33
Myke Hurley: Um like and and they've there are so many of them and they're all so successful. 12:36
Myke Hurley: And the reason that this article this article was giving as to why pro wrestling podcasts are as popular as they are. 12:41
Myke Hurley: Is because pro wrestling fans usually do not have people in their life that want to hear them talk about pro wrestling. 12:48
Myke Hurley: Like it tends to be like a 12:54
Myke Hurley: you like it and maybe a family member and maybe that one coworker likes it but you don't want to talk about it in public because you don't want people to know you're a pro wrestling fan. 12:56
Myke Hurley: And so Pro Wrestling Podcasts were successful because you would get to hear people talking about and having conversations about something you cared about. 13:05
Myke Hurley: And I've always applied that to the type of stuff that I make that typically 13:14
Myke Hurley: People in their lives don't have others that are really well versed in good opinions about technology 13:19
Myke Hurley: Usually you'll say to someone, I like this, and they're like, Oh that, don't you know it at planned obsolescence? 13:28
Myke Hurley: You know, like you know, you say you like an iPhone, they're like 13:34
Myke Hurley: Oh, but Apple just makes all the iPhones break after three years. 13:36
Max Roberts: It's this all my Android friends. 13:38
Myke Hurley: You know, like I can't have a conversation with you anymore because we're into a whole new world. 13:39
Max Roberts: Yeah 13:44
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 13:44
Myke Hurley: And so 13:45
Myke Hurley: You you want to have these conversations, but you don't get to have them. 13:46
Myke Hurley: And so it's incredible to get to listen to them. 13:50
Myke Hurley: Uh and the great thing about podcasting is there is literally a podcast for everything. 13:53
Myke Hurley: And I think that's why the medium works, but I also think that's why it is so successful in niches where maybe some other types of content before it hasn't been. 13:58
Myke Hurley: Obviously YouTube has now taken that. 14:07
Myke Hurley: and run with it and it's a whole different ball game, but I think that's why podcasting works and still works too. 14:09
Max Roberts: Yeah, it's it's pretty remarkable. 14:15
Max Roberts: That 14:17
Max Roberts: I feel like the current, you know, we discovered in 2007, 2008, you know, Apple's like, podcasting's gonna be big. 14:19
Max Roberts: We're gonna integrate it into iTunes and put it on the iPod. 14:27
Max Roberts: I watched that introduction 14:30
Max Roberts: that Steve did and he was, you know, pod, iPod, you know, he was all the whole thing. 14:32
Max Roberts: He was loving it. 14:37
Max Roberts: And they put 3,000 podcasts on iTunes and you could download them and have a great time. 14:38
Max Roberts: But today 14:43
Max Roberts: Today you see stuff like um oh my gosh, the only only murders in the building, that show was very fun. 14:46
Max Roberts: I've and they get podcasts because 14:53
Max Roberts: Each chapter card in the episode is at the timestamp in the episode itself. 14:56
Max Roberts: It's pretty fun. 15:01
Max Roberts: Um You know, we're making shows. 15:02
Max Roberts: There are now Golden Globes. 15:04
Max Roberts: When does Relay get nominated for a Golden Globe? 15:06
Max Roberts: When does that happen? 15:08
Myke Hurley: I wished it could. 15:09
Myke Hurley: There there is a the I don't remember what it was, but there is a way in which you have to 15:10
Myke Hurley: There's something that you need to do to be able to get into the nomination and it's something about charts. 15:17
Myke Hurley: It's like a whole thing. 15:22
Myke Hurley: It's a nightmare. 15:23
Myke Hurley: It it's just a way to get more celebrities at the Golden Globes. 15:24
Myke Hurley: And it's why it's Amy Polar, wasn't it? 15:28
Max Roberts: Sure. 15:28
Max Roberts: Yeah. 15:30
Myke Hurley: And it's also like the Amy Polar thing. 15:30
Myke Hurley: Good hang is a great show, but like I think Time put it in their top fifty podcasts of all time after like three months of it existing or something. 15:32
Myke Hurley: It's like, alright, we need we all need to calm down a little. 15:40
Myke Hurley: little bit I think. 15:42
Max Roberts: Just calm a little bit. 15:43
Myke Hurley: It's a good time, but like let's let's it's not the greatest podcast that's ever been made. 15:43
Myke Hurley: Like let's let's all just relax a little. 15:48
Max Roberts: And there's just money, just uh silly Hollywood money being thrown around. 15:50
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 15:53
Max Roberts: I mean, I I still remember the news that Joe Rogan was gonna go exclusively to Spotify. 15:54
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 15:55
Max Roberts: Now he's back, you know, anywhere, but he's still 16:00
Max Roberts: a Spotify show in that sense and I mean are the Kelsey brothers, I guess Amazon gave them a a truckload of money. 16:02
Max Roberts: Netflix is in the game now. 16:10
Myke Hurley: Yeah, now now Netflix. 16:10
Myke Hurley: Yeah, yeah. 16:12
Max Roberts: I'm curious as someone to your career, when you see these stories, and a lot of it is celebrities and a lot of it is video, I think. 16:13
Max Roberts: And then 16:21
Max Roberts: the industries behind that, the techs. 16:22
Max Roberts: What what do you see as someone who's been doing primarily audio shows for the last sixteen years personally, twelve years of relay? 16:24
Myke Hurley: I mean, it it actually tie these these big boom moments tie into the bust moments for me. 16:33
Myke Hurley: So 16:40
Myke Hurley: I've said this a bunch of times now and I think I can increment it by one now. 16:41
Myke Hurley: So I've seen the death of podcasting four times in my career. 16:45
Myke Hurley: Um and it's and typically the death of podcasting happens after one of these things. 16:48
Myke Hurley: occurs. 16:55
Myke Hurley: So podcasting died last after all of the Spotify deals started falling apart. 16:56
Myke Hurley: That was the last death of podcasting. 17:02
Myke Hurley: Uh and now Netflix is spending similar amounts of money, so podcasting now is booming again. 17:04
Myke Hurley: And now everyone's trying to get on Netflix and everyone's trying to do video in the hopes that Netflix will come and get them a truckload of money. 17:11
Myke Hurley: But what's gonna happen is 17:17
Myke Hurley: Anywhere between twelve to twenty-four months from now, uh Netflix is either gonna let these deals lapse or they're gonna change the model and then podcasting would be dead again. 17:19
Myke Hurley: Um I I don't I don't really have any r desire to chase the trends that occur in this medium. 17:30
Myke Hurley: Um partly because, you know, obviously Netflix is not going to buy one of my shows. 17:41
Myke Hurley: But e uh it it's but I have no desire to try and turn my shows into something that could potentially be 17:46
Myke Hurley: tasty to a a big deal like this because it's just not why I do this and I also just think it's it's all kind of ridiculous honestly 17:54
Myke Hurley: I believe that there well, I know there is a lot of money in this industry. 18:02
Myke Hurley: Um, there's less to go around now, that's for sure. 18:06
Myke Hurley: But there's a lot of money in this industry in just advertising. 18:09
Myke Hurley: And I feel like 18:12
Myke Hurley: A lot of the time, if we all just left alone a little bit, we would all be doing fine. 18:14
Myke Hurley: I think part of the problem is 18:20
Myke Hurley: different people try and get involved in the process of the business of podcasting and make it worse for everyone. 18:22
Myke Hurley: Yeah, and this is like dynamic advertising uh is another example of this. 18:29
Myke Hurley: where it is just the worst experse experience for everybody. 18:34
Myke Hurley: It's a worse experience for the podcasters because they make less money. 18:38
Myke Hurley: And a lot of them don't know they're making less money than if they were doing ads that were just baked into the episodes. 18:42
Myke Hurley: Not everyone. 18:47
Myke Hurley: Some shows can make more money this way, but you have to have a very, very large scale and very large volume. 18:48
Myke Hurley: Um, I think it's harder on the podcasters because they're having to manage things, including their listeners being mad at them because they don't know what ads are going to be put into their shows. 18:55
Myke Hurley: And it's worse for the listener because the ads are lower quality. 19:04
Myke Hurley: And if ads are lower quality, they're also performing worse, which is again worse for 19:08
Myke Hurley: the podcaster and the advertiser. 19:14
Max Roberts: Right. 19:17
Myke Hurley: So like I just, you know, they I kind of look at these things as much and much the same. 19:18
Myke Hurley: It's people trying to 19:23
Myke Hurley: Make some kind of investment, get in and out of the business without actually ever contributing to it in any way. 19:26
Myke Hurley: Um, so that's kind of how I look at these deals now 19:33
Max Roberts: Hmm. 19:33
Max Roberts: It makes a lot of sense because I just it does feel like a lot of trend chasing and um 19:37
Max Roberts: celebrity I guess clout might be the right word. 19:43
Max Roberts: Like it's it's uh, you know, well, Taylor Swift's boyfriend now has a podcast on Amazon. 19:48
Max Roberts: Let's go listen to it and things like that. 19:54
Myke Hurley: Yep. 19:55
Myke Hurley: Yep. 19:56
Max Roberts: And it's well 19:56
Max Roberts: I'm sure I me I've never listened to it. 19:57
Max Roberts: Maybe the conversations are fine, but it it doesn't feel additive necessarily. 19:59
Myke Hurley: No. 20:03
Max Roberts: Uh I don't know. 20:04
Myke Hurley: Why does the Smartless Podcast have an MVNO mobile network? 20:04
Myke Hurley: Why why would the sm why would you want your cell provider to be the smartless podcast? 20:08
Myke Hurley: Like that is a thing that exists. 20:14
Max Roberts: Is it oh my gosh? 20:15
Myke Hurley: They started an MVNO. 20:16
Myke Hurley: Like Ryan Reynolds, you know, like Mint Mobile. 20:18
Max Roberts: Okay, oh okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. 20:20
Myke Hurley: They s Smartless started one of these. 20:21
Myke Hurley: Why did they do that? 20:23
Myke Hurley: Who is like I love the Smartless podcast, so I would also like to pay them for my phone data. 20:25
Max Roberts: It's a mess. 20:32
Max Roberts: It's 20:34
Myke Hurley: Well who wants that? 20:34
Max Roberts: No one. 20:35
Myke Hurley: I'm su I hope they're doing well. 20:35
Max Roberts: No one wants it. 20:36
Myke Hurley: You know, good good luck to them. 20:37
Max Roberts: Oh my goodness. 20:37
Myke Hurley: Good luck to them 20:38
Max Roberts: It's crazy. 20:40
Max Roberts: Now, I I feel like video and podcast is kind of having 20:42
Max Roberts: a moment a resurgence or what have you. 20:47
Myke Hurley: Yep. 20:48
Max Roberts: I mean you were talking about downloading video podcasts and Steve talked about it, you know, way back in the day. 20:49
Max Roberts: And it feels like 20:55
Max Roberts: it's kind of coming back in a way. 20:56
Max Roberts: And I think two things about this I find very interesting. 20:58
Max Roberts: And one of them makes me sad and one is just more analytical, I suppose. 21:01
Max Roberts: It feels like video, and I think you and Jason have talked about this 21:06
Max Roberts: on upgrade, but video to me feels like it's trying to get rid of the edit. 21:10
Max Roberts: It's trying to remove the audio edit and the quality of it because it's the 21:15
Max Roberts: It used to be difficult to do video. 21:21
Max Roberts: Now it's easier to just have the conversation and upload it as it is. 21:23
Max Roberts: It's raw or whatever. 21:27
Max Roberts: And um 21:29
Max Roberts: Shows can be longer, it doesn't really matter, and I don't know. 21:30
Max Roberts: And b if you have a different audio edit than a video edit, you can't take advantage of 21:34
Max Roberts: um necessarily uploading to YouTube and having the same episode in your feed or the features now in now in Apple Podcasts and I know it's been in Spotify. 21:39
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 21:44
Myke Hurley: And and it's in Spotify too, yeah. 21:47
Max Roberts: Yeah, the sync 21:49
Myke Hurley: Where you can switch between. 21:50
Max Roberts: Which sounds cool, but if you value the edit, then it's gone. 21:51
Myke Hurley: Yep. 21:51
Myke Hurley: It is cool. 21:53
Max Roberts: And different moments happen in video versus audio, you know, different cues and all sorts of things. 21:57
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 21:57
Myke Hurley: Yes. 22:00
Myke Hurley: Um so I don't I don't believe that the push for video is to degrade the audio 22:03
Myke Hurley: But I think it is a function of the push to video is that the audio will inherently needs to be degraded. 22:12
Myke Hurley: Um 22:20
Myke Hurley: Because video editing is probably more expensive than audio editing and and dealing with video is is complicated. 22:22
Myke Hurley: But I 22:29
Myke Hurley: Essentially, you cannot make the same amount of cuts in a video as you can in audio because you can't hide them. 22:30
Myke Hurley: You know, like w 22:38
Myke Hurley: with a lot of the with a lot of the editing that I do, um, if you were to watch a video cut that way, it would be very distracting. 22:40
Myke Hurley: Uh you would see st you know, it would be constant. 22:48
Myke Hurley: like different you could see all the cuts happening as you know, especially some of the ones where I'm, you know, say with Cortex where I'm splicing two words together uh two halves of the same word together, stuff like that from different texts. 22:51
Myke Hurley: things like that, right? 23:05
Myke Hurley: So like you you can't do that with video and have the video viewable. 23:06
Myke Hurley: And so if you want video, you have two things you can do. 23:10
Myke Hurley: You can either A have a separate video edit, which is actually what we do for upgrade, for these reasons. 23:14
Myke Hurley: We have a separate audio audio and video edit. 23:21
Myke Hurley: So the audio edit can be more precise and the video edit is less so. 23:24
Myke Hurley: um or you sacrifice the audio edit because you either A want to take advantage of the video like the video audio features that some of these apps have 23:28
Myke Hurley: or because it's just a function of I'm editing the video and I'll just export the audio. 23:41
Myke Hurley: I think it's a shame. 23:47
Myke Hurley: Um I think that there are a lot of shows that I mean I have 23:49
Myke Hurley: The town actually is a show that the the audio quality got way worse recently because they started doing video for Spotify. 23:54
Myke Hurley: Um, it seems like they've actually taken some of the feedback they were getting to heart and they've they're fixing that. 24:02
Myke Hurley: Like I think they're making specific tweaks to the way that the video is edited to make sure that the audio is better because it has been much better the first couple of weeks were very rough. 24:08
Myke Hurley: But this it's a it's a workflow thing. 24:17
Myke Hurley: But video I also I'm also not a big fan of video for audio primarily audio podcasts because it changes 24:21
Myke Hurley: the way that you speak. 24:30
Myke Hurley: Um and I think it makes it worse. 24:32
Myke Hurley: I think you're more likely to say like, look at this, let me show you this, rather than let me describe this to you. 24:35
Myke Hurley: Uh and if you are producing a show that is primarily audio, I think you should do what me and Jason do. 24:41
Myke Hurley: So me and Jason produce audio for upgrade and neither of us have the video viewable while we're recording. 24:47
Myke Hurley: So we hide the the video player. 24:53
Myke Hurley: Uh like that we use Riverside um for f to to record our audio and video and we both just minimize the window and so it's like we're not there. 24:56
Myke Hurley: Um I th I find that to be actually a nicer way to record um bic I find video uh video podcasting, video calls to be more draining. 25:04
Myke Hurley: So I've recently started um doing a full video call for the Cortex interviews that I've been doing. 25:15
Max Roberts: Yeah 25:15
Myke Hurley: And I'm doing this because I think that it is more expected now. 25:21
Myke Hurley: Um and I'm also wanting to do some social clips for that because that is the thing that you do today. 25:27
Myke Hurley: But I'm doing video for that because I think the show 25:33
Myke Hurley: I think people fight maybe find it a little more comforting in some scenarios to actually have a video call with someone, especially if you know we don't really know each other. 25:37
Myke Hurley: I think it actually does help with the rapport building. 25:46
Myke Hurley: But then I I I make sure to edit the show in such a way that I don't think you would know. 25:49
Myke Hurley: Um like by and large 25:55
Myke Hurley: I I I think I've only maybe had one or two instances where someone has referenced something visually, but there's nothing I can do to edit around it. 25:56
Myke Hurley: But most of the time I will edit around that stuff. 26:04
Myke Hurley: Um, because I 26:07
Myke Hurley: I just don't want people to really be conscious of the fact that they're not getting the a and the experience that I'm getting in that moment. 26:08
Myke Hurley: So I I I think that there are things you can do, but I do think that video does make 26:15
Myke Hurley: the audio worse unless you make specific trade-offs for it. 26:20
Myke Hurley: And I think that by and large people are not willing to do the specific trade-offs for the reason they're doing video in the first place, which is to m try and maximize revenue. 26:25
Myke Hurley: So you wouldn't spend more money on the production than you have to. 26:33
Max Roberts: Yes. 26:34
Max Roberts: That was I think that leads into this other angle. 26:38
Max Roberts: And you talked about this on State of the Workflow with Becca. 26:41
Max Roberts: Um, is it f Farsace? 26:44
Max Roberts: I I never say it right. 26:46
Max Roberts: Uh Farsace. 26:47
Myke Hurley: Fasace. 26:47
Myke Hurley: I had to yeah, I I did a uh uh I watched a bunch of videos to make sure I was saying her name correctly uh before I had her on the show. 26:49
Max Roberts: I love that episode. 26:56
Max Roberts: It was very when I saw that she was the guest, I was very excited because I've been watching her stuff since she left the Verge. 26:57
Max Roberts: I mean, I watched her at The Verge as well. 27:02
Max Roberts: But um 27:04
Max Roberts: Her channel's great and I love it. 27:05
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 27:06
Max Roberts: But you you talk about I'm not gonna read the whole quote here in the show notes, but you know, podcasting doesn't have an algorithm because it's all just RSS feeds and it just kind of exists. 27:07
Myke Hurley: Yep 27:16
Max Roberts: And it the industry, I think, tries to inject the algorithm, dynamic ad insertion through, you know, the tracking and all that stuff. 27:18
Max Roberts: But this push to video again, this resurgence and getting on platforms with 27:25
Max Roberts: algorithms like YouTube or TikTok or Instagram. 27:30
Max Roberts: And you talk about these social clips for state of the workflow. 27:33
Max Roberts: I was actually surprised when I went to your Instagram just while researching things, I saw clips from 27:36
Max Roberts: you know, um your interview with Simone. 27:42
Max Roberts: I was like, oh, uh, there's a video of this. 27:44
Max Roberts: And I go to the channel, the YouTube channel for Cortext, and there's no video version. 27:46
Max Roberts: I was like, ah, this is interesting. 27:50
Max Roberts: Um 27:53
Max Roberts: Do you think this push to like this injection of the algorithm where it is, but podcasting seems resilient to it? 27:54
Max Roberts: It kind of stands the test of time. 28:02
Max Roberts: How how do you feel about that? 28:05
Max Roberts: And I guess in your shows as well, like what's the upgrade now as a video version, all this sort of stuff? 28:07
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 28:10
Myke Hurley: I don't feel like I'm seeing from myself any specific um 28:14
Myke Hurley: Benefit to doing some of the things that I do. 28:20
Myke Hurley: But similarly, I know that I'm not following the best practices 28:24
Myke Hurley: for these things. 28:28
Myke Hurley: Like we are now at this point, say with upgrade. 28:29
Myke Hurley: We produce the video version because there are now people that just like to listen to the show that way. 28:32
Myke Hurley: And so we're producing it for those people. 28:37
Myke Hurley: You know, the like 28:39
Myke Hurley: fifteen hundred to two thousand listeners, that is a very small percentage of our audience, but they prefer to have the show that way. 28:40
Myke Hurley: So we are now doing it just for them. 28:48
Myke Hurley: And I think that that's fine because at this point we've got a real good process going and our costs are very manageable with the editing, and so I'm happy to continue doing it. 28:50
Myke Hurley: Um for for that reason. 29:02
Myke Hurley: And it's also getting me used to doing more video stuff because there are other parts of my life where I want to be doing a little bit more video. 29:04
Myke Hurley: And it's helping me kind of get used to that and get set up properly for that. 29:12
Myke Hurley: So that you know it's beneficial in that way. 29:16
Myke Hurley: The clips for Cortex are they exist 29:18
Myke Hurley: as a way to show who the guests are. 29:21
Myke Hurley: I think I think it is helpful for people that are following me and maybe following the show in any way to see who's on the show. 29:24
Myke Hurley: Um and also I've been 29:31
Myke Hurley: very lucky to be able to attract some really interesting people. 29:33
Myke Hurley: And so it's also a thing that's fun for me to be able to show 29:37
Myke Hurley: um uh who I've been able to have on the show. 29:41
Myke Hurley: And so I actually quite like posting those uh to my Instagram for that reason. 29:44
Myke Hurley: It to me it's uh 29:49
Myke Hurley: You know, my Instagram has always kind of been uh has become for me over time like a uh a thing that I look back on and can see various important moments in my own life. 29:50
Myke Hurley: And I think that 29:59
Myke Hurley: this does actually fit into that because it's been a it's been a good year of these interviews. 30:01
Myke Hurley: Um 30:07
Myke Hurley: You know, basically I I I think people are doing this to try and get into the algorithm because they want to be able to find a new audience. 30:10
Myke Hurley: Because podcast discovery is a real problem and it has always been a real problem. 30:18
Myke Hurley: So I don't begrudge people 30:25
Myke Hurley: from making decisions that try to get their show in front of other people. 30:28
Myke Hurley: I just think as long as you're continuing to ensure that 30:34
Myke Hurley: the primary way that people are listening to your show or consuming your content is the one you're best serving. 30:38
Myke Hurley: And so, you know, there are there are many um podcasts on YouTube. 30:44
Myke Hurley: Where I'm sure the way that people are mostly consuming that content is on YouTube. 30:48
Myke Hurley: And so lean into YouTube then if that's what you're 30:54
Myke Hurley: audience wants from you, provide the content to them in the way that they want. 30:56
Myke Hurley: I just think it's important that people keep that in mind and remember that. 31:00
Myke Hurley: Do the thing that ends up serving your audience best, as well as trying to help yourself. 31:06
Max Roberts: Hmm. 31:14
Max Roberts: I think that all kind of comes around to 31:15
Max Roberts: the design of the show, which is kind of the core of what I really want to talk about and 31:21
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 31:26
Max Roberts: You know, if you're approaching a show that way where, well, our audience is here on video, like kind of funny, for example, all of their stuff is video because they do it live. 31:30
Max Roberts: uh ninety percent of the time it feels like. 31:39
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 31:42
Max Roberts: I mean they do pre-record things, but it's always live, so it's a it's a video show. 31:42
Max Roberts: Yeah. 31:46
Max Roberts: And I had this idea of I wanted to talk about the design of a show broadly. 31:48
Max Roberts: And then with you, since you're back in the interview-specific scene, one-on-one interviews, I wanted to talk about how you approached. 31:53
Max Roberts: designing and making state of the workflow. 32:00
Max Roberts: And so while I was researching, I went back, I listened to the Ten Years of Cortex episode. 32:03
Max Roberts: And you and Gray kinda had this conversation about well, Gray talks about basically a podcast, uh, eats things. 32:09
Max Roberts: It can eat the news, it can eat 32:16
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 32:17
Myke Hurley: Yeah 32:18
Max Roberts: the guests, like this show. 32:19
Max Roberts: It eats guests, I suppose, um, or state of the workflow, and then it can eat the lives of the host. 32:20
Max Roberts: Uh like um 32:26
Max Roberts: Cortex, for example. 32:28
Max Roberts: That's that's probably the example, the best one there. 32:30
Myke Hurley: Yep 32:30
Max Roberts: Um and then you talked about it as well with like uh you described it as two buckets that can be influenced by the world or the show creates its own content. 32:32
Max Roberts: How does the meal influence the design for you? 32:44
Max Roberts: Like what the show is going to eat? 32:46
Max Roberts: How do you you have new shows, you have host shows, you have interview shows. 32:48
Max Roberts: How does that influence for you? 32:54
Myke Hurley: Yeah, the that the phrase what a podcast eats is a thing that m Gray has been, you know, getting in my head for uh 32:55
Myke Hurley: like ten years now and it's over time the things that Cortex has added to its menu has changed and so we s you know we added in books. 33:04
Myke Hurley: as a part of what the show talks about. 33:14
Myke Hurley: So business books. 33:17
Myke Hurley: And then also some of our more special episodes. 33:18
Myke Hurley: So state of the work, or state of the apps, state of the hardware. 33:21
Myke Hurley: And again, state of the hardware got added in because people really loved to consume state of the apps. 33:25
Myke Hurley: And so we added that in too, and that also became a very successful part of the show. 33:31
Myke Hurley: Which was why when Gray decided he needed to take a breakaway, I was like, Well, I guess the thing that I can do is give people more of what I know they love, which is talking about 33:35
Myke Hurley: The tools and devices that people use that we use. 33:48
Myke Hurley: And so I was like, well, what if I extend that out to others? 33:52
Myke Hurley: But the 33:55
Myke Hurley: Basically the idea behind this like the meal thing or for me, the like, you know, you've got your your buckets of what shows are. 33:56
Myke Hurley: They're either, you know, news focused or people focused. 34:02
Myke Hurley: But then once you've decided which bucket you're in 34:06
Myke Hurley: You've got to choose like what do you want your content to be about? 34:08
Myke Hurley: Like what is it that you're driving for? 34:12
Myke Hurley: Are you following news? 34:15
Myke Hurley: Are you seeing what people like? 34:16
Myke Hurley: Are you just sharing stories about your own life? 34:18
Myke Hurley: And the thing is you've got to keep amending that over time. 34:21
Myke Hurley: And that's one of the things that he really taught me when we were as we have built that sh this show out to be what it is now. 34:25
Myke Hurley: of like you can't just keep eating the same exact same meal forever. 34:32
Myke Hurley: It has to kind of adapt and grow. 34:36
Myke Hurley: And I think it's a very smart way 34:39
Myke Hurley: of considering how a podcast can live for a really long time. 34:42
Myke Hurley: And I have adapted this and have used this. 34:47
Myke Hurley: I think the the the other show that I would say I have the most 34:51
Myke Hurley: hand in the production of is upgrade where by and large I set the show um like I I would be kind of the main producer of the show 34:55
Myke Hurley: I set the topics and set the flow and then, you know, when Jason will read the document before we begin the show and he'll make tweaks and stuff. 35:07
Myke Hurley: But he can do that because Jason always knows what we're going to talk about because he's already been covering it and already been thinking about it. 35:16
Myke Hurley: So, you know, it the show works that way. 35:23
Myke Hurley: But then the two of us over time have 35:26
Myke Hurley: really landed on segments of something for for upgrade. 35:30
Myke Hurley: It's a very segmented show and we are able to realize like, oh 35:34
Myke Hurley: we can start doing this now. 35:40
Myke Hurley: And so like r we do like a a rumor segment called rumor roundup where we just talk about rumors. 35:42
Myke Hurley: And then as as Apple moves into different worlds, right? 35:47
Myke Hurley: We one of them was actually up uh upstream 35:50
Myke Hurley: But we don't do that anymore because Jason went and created a spin-off podcast for that. 35:54
Max Roberts: Yes 35:54
Max Roberts: Yeah. 35:58
Myke Hurley: Right? 35:59
Myke Hurley: Uh, so downstream. 35:59
Myke Hurley: And then, but we have we have ask upgrade, we have Snelltalk. 36:01
Myke Hurley: We have lawyer up. 36:05
Myke Hurley: You know, like these are and and as times change. 36:07
Myke Hurley: We add new things and drop things from the show. 36:10
Myke Hurley: because the the the the the the kind of the overall plateau that is available to us changes. 36:13
Myke Hurley: And so like I've taken what I've learned from designing, issue poach is a really lovely way to think about it, designing Cortex into the way that I design upgrade. 36:18
Myke Hurley: Because my other shows, they're different. 36:28
Myke Hurley: So Connected, it's a three-person collaboration. 36:30
Myke Hurley: Steven does the majority of the driving of the notes, but we then will all collaborate. 36:34
Myke Hurley: The Pan Addict, that's all Brad. 36:38
Myke Hurley: And then I come in and do it. 36:41
Myke Hurley: Analog is is what it is. 36:43
Myke Hurley: Me and Casey are just like, we're vibing. 36:45
Myke Hurley: You know, we're just like, we're see we don't know where we're gonna go. 36:47
Max Roberts: Oh yeah 36:48
Myke Hurley: You know, so each show is different, but I think 36:50
Myke Hurley: the one that I've been able to apply kind of my um the skills that I've learned with Cortex to most of the upgrade. 36:54
Max Roberts: That makes sense. 37:02
Max Roberts: I the segmentation of upgrade, it makes it 37:03
Max Roberts: very digestible. 37:07
Max Roberts: Not that like the show itself, but you can you like know what you're getting into. 37:09
Max Roberts: And I remember 37:13
Myke Hurley: And people can skip the ones they don't like as well, which which I think is a really nice way of structuring a show. 37:14
Myke Hurley: Um is that you can just choose. 37:19
Max Roberts: Yeah. 37:19
Myke Hurley: Like I it's like I'm not interested in the rumors or I'm not interested in the legal stuff. 37:21
Myke Hurley: It's like great, y you can jump to the next chapter and like 37:25
Max Roberts: I remember when Lawyer Up was almost a weekly segment and I I think the both of you were a bit 37:29
Myke Hurley: Oh yeah. 37:34
Max Roberts: Exasperated with this like, oh, we gotta talk about this again. 37:35
Myke Hurley: Yeah 37:37
Max Roberts: I think even one time you said you guys could just skip it. 37:38
Max Roberts: It's like we have to do it. 37:41
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 37:42
Myke Hurley: It's like this one's not nice, just jump ahead. 37:42
Myke Hurley: Yeah, that that the lot it can be sometimes y you know 37:45
Max Roberts: It's a bad mood 37:45
Myke Hurley: I I like computers. 37:51
Myke Hurley: Uh that's what I like and I've always loved computers, but the problem is as the industry has grown 37:54
Myke Hurley: uh it's not just the computers anymore. 38:00
Myke Hurley: And sometimes that's harder than other times to talk about. 38:02
Myke Hurley: Um and in it, you know, and I think over time I'm finding it much more complicated. 38:06
Myke Hurley: Um and so the way that we manage that is changing and that is like mostly from my direction, I feel like. 38:12
Myke Hurley: It's just 38:20
Myke Hurley: Uh there's only so many European Union uh rulings that I can read, you know 38:21
Max Roberts: I I think most people except the lawyers, there are only so many that we can read and deal with. 38:28
Myke Hurley: Yes, exactly. 38:33
Max Roberts: It is 38:34
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 38:35
Max Roberts: It was exhausting there for a little while. 38:36
Myke Hurley: Yep. 38:38
Max Roberts: Uh seems to have evened out. 38:38
Max Roberts: Um 38:40
Myke Hurley: Uh I don't know. 38:40
Myke Hurley: So like as we are recording this, you know, it break the time uh the timeline. 38:41
Myke Hurley: I am expecting that there will be lawyer up on Monday. 38:45
Myke Hurley: Um 38:49
Max Roberts: Okay. 38:49
Myke Hurley: We'll see where we end up. 38:51
Max Roberts: Everyone gavel up. 38:52
Myke Hurley: To be honest, that could be any week. 38:53
Myke Hurley: Right? 38:56
Max Roberts: True. 38:56
Myke Hurley: Like really. 38:56
Myke Hurley: It doesn't matter. 38:57
Max Roberts: Mm-hmm. 38:57
Myke Hurley: This show could come out three months from now. 38:58
Myke Hurley: And and Monday might be lawyer up. 38:59
Myke Hurley: We'll find out. 39:01
Max Roberts: We'll keep it everyone in suspense. 39:03
Max Roberts: Um I think I wanted to ask you about um 39:06
Max Roberts: Kind of like the the features or maybe as Greg Miller might say, the accoutrement of a show. 39:15
Max Roberts: And 39:22
Max Roberts: You we talked about it just like super briefly there, but like you can skip a chapter and you build that into the show by using chapters. 39:24
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 39:29
Max Roberts: Whoa. 39:33
Max Roberts: And that's a great feature and it's super helpful. 39:35
Max Roberts: But I think there are show notes, which you know, we're talking about this. 39:37
Max Roberts: Um 39:42
Max Roberts: Transcripts have really become a super, I think, common thing, or table stakes now with the thanks of LLMs and AI and all that stuff. 39:43
Max Roberts: I'm you know 39:53
Max Roberts: When you as your shows have evolved, how do you look at show notes? 39:55
Max Roberts: How do you look at these other things that are kind of coming in? 40:00
Max Roberts: Obviously your ads are baked in. 40:03
Max Roberts: We don't have to worry about dynamic ad insertion, which makes chapters possible, right? 40:04
Max Roberts: Uh 40:08
Max Roberts: Um in the the traditional sense. 40:09
Myke Hurley: AI also makes chapters possible though. 40:09
Myke Hurley: So like Apple Podcast is adding and Spotify does this too. 40:13
Max Roberts: That's right 40:13
Myke Hurley: They create chapters. 40:17
Myke Hurley: Um based on transcripts. 40:19
Myke Hurley: Spotify actually is the only way you can get chapters in Spotify. 40:21
Max Roberts: Yes 40:24
Myke Hurley: If you provide an MP3 with chapters in it, they ignore that and they make their own. 40:24
Myke Hurley: And they're actually surprisingly good. 40:29
Myke Hurley: Like they they do t they they always make more chapters than I would make, but they do tend to also include the ones that I have. 40:31
Myke Hurley: And now Apple is doing that for shows that don't provide their own chapters as well. 40:38
Myke Hurley: Um, and they can do that for shows that have dynamic ads or not, which is very very clever actually. 40:42
Max Roberts: Mm. 40:48
Max Roberts: I hadn't considered that that it w it would just be able to work around the dynamic ad because it's it's built in there. 40:48
Myke Hurley: Yep. 40:52
Myke Hurley: Yep. 40:55
Myke Hurley: Yep. 40:55
Myke Hurley: It's very clever. 40:56
Myke Hurley: It's a clever system. 40:57
Myke Hurley: But okay, so for me, again, I'm I'm old school 40:58
Max Roberts: Yeah 41:02
Myke Hurley: Um and so my show notes are full of stuff. 41:03
Myke Hurley: Um my show notes are not just like here's a piece of text, go find out about our ad policy, and also here's one link, which was one of the five links that we said we'd put in the show notes. 41:06
Myke Hurley: Uh and for me this comes from the way I produce a show, which I I don't know if it's 41:17
Myke Hurley: Old school or what? 41:27
Myke Hurley: I don't know. 41:28
Myke Hurley: But I just know the way I make a show and I make a show with an incredibly detailed outline 41:29
Myke Hurley: um every segment so w let's take um I'll take upgrade here 'cause I actually think is a it's a better uh show for that. 41:34
Myke Hurley: Every segment has got its own heading. 41:43
Myke Hurley: It's a full rundown chronologically of where the show is gonna go. 41:45
Myke Hurley: Every story that I'm talking about has got a link in it in an outline and any quotes that I want to read will be in there. 41:49
Myke Hurley: I write out my thoughts in bullet points for things I'm gonna talk about 41:58
Myke Hurley: Some stuff is just there to remind me, some I'm gonna read verbatim. 42:02
Myke Hurley: I think I try my best to not make it super clear when I'm doing that, but you never know how it comes across. 42:06
Myke Hurley: Um, but I have like the full show planned out. 42:12
Myke Hurley: There is an expectation uh that my co-hosts will add their own thoughts too, which they do. 42:15
Myke Hurley: So Jason will go in and add notes of his own where needed. 42:20
Myke Hurley: And it runs the entire show. 42:24
Myke Hurley: Now as we are recording the show, it moves around and some things get cut, some things get moved. 42:26
Myke Hurley: But then what that enables me to do is as we are recording the show, I add the links of everything we talk about to our CMS into we have a custom CMS that makes it possible for me to do this. 42:32
Myke Hurley: We add our links via bookmark lists that I click and it just gets added to the most recent episode of said show. 42:44
Myke Hurley: Um that is actually influenced by the 5x5 CMS. 42:50
Myke Hurley: That's how that works. 42:53
Myke Hurley: And so me and Steven got very used to doing that when we were producing shows by F on 5x5s when we built our own. 42:54
Myke Hurley: We added that feature into. 42:59
Myke Hurley: It's a very nice way of adding uh links to show notes. 43:01
Myke Hurley: rather than having to like put them all in Markdown or whatever. 43:04
Myke Hurley: It's a it's a really lovely way of doing things. 43:07
Myke Hurley: And so that enables me to be able to to produce a link a list of links for the audience. 43:10
Myke Hurley: that is a reference to everything we talk about. 43:17
Myke Hurley: So if there's something you want to read more about or if we talk about, you know, as you can go find the images at the link in the show notes. 43:19
Myke Hurley: You'll be able to go in there. 43:25
Myke Hurley: It's got the title of the article and you can click it and open it up 43:26
Myke Hurley: I think that stuff is really good. 43:29
Myke Hurley: Um and it it's very good for the listener. 43:31
Myke Hurley: I also think it's good for just like if you're referencing something, um, I think you should give people the link, right? 43:33
Myke Hurley: So they can you can people can go find out more and give the click to the person who came up with the news or shared the news. 43:38
Myke Hurley: Um I try my best actually to to keep the Baton quotes to a minimum because I I think at a certain point you're kind of just 43:44
Myke Hurley: ripping off the author if you're just reading half of the article or whatever, you know. 43:53
Myke Hurley: And so like I just try and keep that to the pertinent stuff. 43:58
Myke Hurley: Um, but we know 44:02
Myke Hurley: Uh Mark Gurman gets the most clicks, but I also pay Bloomberg, so I feel okay about it. 44:04
Myke Hurley: Um because Bloomberg is very expensive 44:08
Myke Hurley: Uh chapters you mentioned. 44:11
Myke Hurley: I this is something I was really hesitant about adding chapters to podcasts at first for a few reasons. 44:13
Myke Hurley: One, I didn't at the time we were a hundred percent ad supported. 44:20
Myke Hurley: And I really didn't like the idea of people just having an easy way to skip an ad. 44:25
Myke Hurley: It functionally that does still enable that, and it's been okay, but I was really nervous about that. 44:31
Myke Hurley: Um and I and I also kind of bristled at the idea that basically I could tell that's what listeners were asking for. 44:37
Myke Hurley: Like I want an easier way to skip your ads. 44:43
Myke Hurley: And it's like 44:45
Myke Hurley: You you're also telling me you want an easier way for me maybe to make no money for doing the work that I produce for you for essentially for free? 44:46
Myke Hurley: So I've bristled at that for a long time, but uh I ended up doing it because there were a lot of people around me who were doing it 44:53
Myke Hurley: And by and large I'm very happy that I made that decision because I think the shows are are th it works really well. 45:00
Myke Hurley: Um and we do some things that, you know, I've seen other people do, like the chapter starts and you hear the end of the ad and 45:07
Myke Hurley: I think people are mostly okay with that. 45:13
Myke Hurley: And it and and I think it actually provides a service because then people know who the advertisers are, they know the URL, so they can go and click it and do what they need to do if they want to later on. 45:15
Myke Hurley: Um, but I really like Chapsays. 45:26
Myke Hurley: Transcripts went backwards and forwards on transcripts for a long time. 45:28
Myke Hurley: Uh we tried doing it and ultimately I found them to not really be very good. 45:31
Myke Hurley: Um and I didn't think that they were serving the purpose that people thought they were asking for as like an accessibility thing. 45:36
Myke Hurley: Like for people 45:43
Myke Hurley: um that were, you know, were unable to listen to the show that they could read it. 45:44
Myke Hurley: But a transcribed conversational podcast is an unreadable thing. 45:48
Myke Hurley: It's 45:52
Max Roberts: Oh yeah 45:53
Myke Hurley: It's re it is unreadable. 45:53
Myke Hurley: And so to get that to be better, it had to be really cleaned up and it was just absolutely not a cost-effective thing that we could do. 45:55
Myke Hurley: But now now that transcripts are essentially free for us, because say like Apple do them for free. 46:05
Myke Hurley: We don't pay for that. 46:12
Myke Hurley: Um, I think there is a real utility in being able to find something that someone was talking about 46:13
Myke Hurley: I think that is the much greater utility of transcripts than providing just a written thing that someone can read. 46:19
Myke Hurley: I I I just, you know, I don't I don't know that I've ever seen 46:26
Myke Hurley: somebody have a good experience reading a 90 minute podcast. 46:32
Myke Hurley: Um I I don't I don't think that that is something I think it's something that you think you want until you start to see what it looks like and then you realize 46:36
Myke Hurley: That's not what I want. 46:45
Myke Hurley: Like I actually want something different. 46:46
Myke Hurley: I want an article. 46:47
Myke Hurley: And so then you go read an article, you know? 46:48
Max Roberts: Yeah, I agree. 46:50
Max Roberts: I've I've always used uh transcripts for my shows to search for something. 46:51
Max Roberts: It's like, I know we kinda talked about that, like, but where? 46:57
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 46:58
Max Roberts: Where was roughly this word? 47:00
Myke Hurley: Yep. 47:01
Max Roberts: And that's how I found 47:02
Max Roberts: You know, when you talked about Father the Bride in that connected episode, which I will find. 47:03
Max Roberts: Uh again, the tab is open on my phone. 47:07
Max Roberts: I just don't have my phone. 47:09
Max Roberts: Um 47:11
Max Roberts: You know, I can find it and be like, oh, he talked about it here. 47:12
Max Roberts: And that's great and super duper helpful. 47:15
Max Roberts: But I can't imagine anyone just sitting there and reading, uh, reading anything. 47:18
Myke Hurley: No, I don't think it's a great experience. 47:21
Myke Hurley: But the the utility of it has has uh become apparent to me. 47:23
Myke Hurley: But I also like that I don't have to arrange that really. 47:27
Myke Hurley: Like they exist in multiple places. 47:30
Myke Hurley: People can go and find the transcripts if they want to. 47:33
Max Roberts: Yeah. 47:36
Max Roberts: It's they're table stakes now, which is pretty great. 47:37
Max Roberts: Also wild that something that was so difficult and had to be done by people now is just done. 47:41
Myke Hurley: Yep. 47:46
Max Roberts: on a server somewhere. 47:47
Myke Hurley: Yep. 47:48
Max Roberts: That's pretty cool. 47:49
Max Roberts: An interview show. 47:51
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 47:53
Max Roberts: You uh Gray goes on sabbatical. 47:54
Max Roberts: Obviously, we need to keep the Cortex feed active for work purposes and just the audience, you know. 47:57
Max Roberts: It's a lot of people for Cortex, I imagine. 48:03
Max Roberts: And so you decide to revisit a format that you really hadn't done. 48:06
Max Roberts: uh predominant like you hadn't done exclusively, I should say, or like a show around it in a long time. 48:11
Max Roberts: Um 48:18
Max Roberts: the interview show. 48:19
Max Roberts: You did, you know, Command Space, Inquisitive, which by, you know, props for those still being accessible. 48:20
Max Roberts: I went back and listened to the first episode of Command Space. 48:26
Myke Hurley: Oh, that's Stephen. 48:28
Myke Hurley: Don't thank me. 48:29
Myke Hurley: I w i if this was my decision, you would not be able to access those shows. 48:30
Myke Hurley: I I am not a person for like keeping old work around in that way, but Steven very much is, so he makes sure that that happens. 48:34
Max Roberts: Yeah 48:39
Max Roberts: Well, Steven and I are kindred spirits then. 48:42
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 48:44
Max Roberts: Um I love it. 48:44
Max Roberts: And that that first episode with Merlin Man is something. 48:46
Max Roberts: And it's it's cool to see the evolution of 48:49
Max Roberts: your skill and ability and style as a host. 48:54
Max Roberts: Um both of you. 48:56
Max Roberts: Steven is uh very it feels reserved and almost shy 48:57
Max Roberts: Um, which is so interesting to hear, you know, after years of listening to you all on Connected and other things. 49:02
Myke Hurley: Yep. 49:02
Max Roberts: It's cool. 49:07
Max Roberts: It's cool growth. 49:08
Max Roberts: Uh um, but when you sat down, you're like, I want to do this, I want to reach out to 49:10
Max Roberts: people I look up to, admire, uh I find fascinating, whatever your motive might be. 49:16
Max Roberts: I want to do an interview show, but how do I, how did you want to do it different? 49:21
Max Roberts: How did you want to do it the same? 49:25
Max Roberts: What was the thought process into making and designing and state of the workflow? 49:27
Myke Hurley: So one of the I mean, I did I was in I was doing interview shows for a really long time. 49:34
Myke Hurley: Like my very first podcast. 49:38
Myke Hurley: became like having a guest on and we talk about the news but it was interview show and then that became command space and then that became much more just interview and then into Inquisitive which was a similar thing but then Inquisitive also had a few other lives that it lived 49:40
Myke Hurley: Um and one of the reasons I stopped doing it is because I didn't want to do an interview show anymore because interview shows are very complicated. 49:54
Myke Hurley: as you will know. 50:03
Myke Hurley: Booking guests is very hard. 50:04
Myke Hurley: Building rapport is very complicated and it's not an easy thing to do, but it's important to do. 50:07
Myke Hurley: And you have seconds in which you can do that with people. 50:12
Myke Hurley: Um there are technical challenges with interview shows because you you're not relying on someone who has a reliable environment that you can trust every time. 50:16
Myke Hurley: Well, also Grey didn't, but you know, so I uh I was burned in that fire for a l for many years still. 50:25
Myke Hurley: I still had that part of me uh uh kicking around. 50:30
Myke Hurley: Um I had many options available when when Grey told me that he needed to take this time away. 50:34
Myke Hurley: And there were many different types of things that I could do. 50:40
Myke Hurley: Um but the main thing him saying, like I want you to continue doing the show in my absence and it's your show. 50:44
Myke Hurley: Like you can do whatever you want with it during this time. 50:50
Myke Hurley: because we both want the show to continue. 50:53
Myke Hurley: There is no reason that it should not. 50:55
Myke Hurley: Uh and so I had the opportunity to do whatever I wanted. 50:58
Myke Hurley: And the thing that I thought would be that I absolutely did not want to bring in a temporary co-host. 51:01
Myke Hurley: That was like immediate strike. 51:07
Myke Hurley: Like I was not interested in doing that. 51:09
Myke Hurley: Um, there is no replacing Gray. 51:11
Myke Hurley: There is no replacing mine and Gray's relationship. 51:13
Myke Hurley: And it's one of the re reasons people come to the show. 51:16
Myke Hurley: So I thought the thing that I should go for is maximum utility as opposed to trying to find a relationship replacement. 51:19
Myke Hurley: Um and so I figured well maximum utility would be essentially the workflows of many interesting creative people. 51:28
Myke Hurley: And and that is what I'm going for is creative people. 51:37
Myke Hurley: I talking to people who make something. 51:40
Myke Hurley: Um I've had a lot of YouTubers on and will continue to, but I'm also starting now to to reach out to people in different creative fields and 51:43
Myke Hurley: Guest booking is the the thing that I find the most complicated and it's the hardest part. 51:51
Max Roberts: It it is 51:55
Myke Hurley: It's the thing that I enjoy the least. 51:56
Myke Hurley: Um I'm very pleased I just have to do one a month. 51:58
Myke Hurley: Um but 52:01
Myke Hurley: That is the the saving grace uh of this show. 52:02
Myke Hurley: I think if it was one and one a month, I don't know. 52:05
Myke Hurley: I d I think I would have had to have found a different uh thing to do in the meantime. 52:07
Myke Hurley: Um, but booking one a month is fine and and I can manage that, but it's hard. 52:11
Myke Hurley: Um it's it's been nice. 52:16
Myke Hurley: Yeah, w there hasn't been a nice thing about it. 52:17
Myke Hurley: There's been a personal validation for me. 52:19
Myke Hurley: Um that a lot of the people that I want to have on the show want to be on the show. 52:22
Myke Hurley: That has been really nice because it's been a long time since I've been in this game. 52:27
Myke Hurley: And so you kind of it 52:32
Myke Hurley: Now it's kind of like, oh, my kind of like peer group is bigger than I thought it was because these people are not people I interact with. 52:34
Myke Hurley: uh frequently, but they are keen to be on the show. 52:43
Myke Hurley: They're aware of the show, so they want to be a part of it. 52:47
Myke Hurley: They like the idea of it, that kind of stuff. 52:50
Myke Hurley: So that's been really nice. 52:51
Myke Hurley: But it's yeah, it's been um 52:52
Myke Hurley: It has been an experience getting back into that world. 52:55
Myke Hurley: Uh I find interviews to be equally 52:58
Myke Hurley: Nerve-wracking and anxiety-inducing, but also some of the most validating work that I've done in years. 53:04
Myke Hurley: And and it is that is a roller coaster. 53:14
Myke Hurley: And that roller coaster is before and after. 53:16
Myke Hurley: That is the before and after feeling, which I'm sure you I know you must know. 53:19
Myke Hurley: The like you're getting ready to do the show and you're like 53:23
Max Roberts: Um 53:23
Myke Hurley: I don't know how this is gonna go. 53:27
Myke Hurley: I do not have a long time to build a rapport with this person. 53:29
Myke Hurley: Like, you know, we may have interacted a little bit, or we may just interact over email or whatever, but we've got to sit and talk. 53:32
Myke Hurley: We've not done that very much. 53:39
Myke Hurley: And I have to do a good job, make them sound good, make them look good, give them, you know, hope that they think my questions are interesting, and then you're finished and you're like 53:41
Myke Hurley: That was great. 53:51
Myke Hurley: And I've on top of the world. 53:52
Myke Hurley: That is kind of my emotional journey of interviews. 53:53
Myke Hurley: So again, really happy I only have to go through that once a month. 53:57
Myke Hurley: Um, but it has been like 54:00
Myke Hurley: I have also uh I have gotten more compliments from people in my 54:04
Myke Hurley: kind of immediate uh circle about these interviews than I've had about anything I've done in a really long time. 54:12
Myke Hurley: Um people keep reaching out to me to tell me how much they're enjoying them. 54:20
Myke Hurley: And that feels really good. 54:25
Myke Hurley: That is very validating. 54:27
Myke Hurley: And it's nice to know that 54:29
Myke Hurley: I still have the skill that I developed. 54:30
Myke Hurley: The skill that brought me here, right? 54:33
Myke Hurley: Like interviewing people got me on the map to be able to 54:35
Myke Hurley: continue and build the long-term relationships that create some of the shows that I'm doing now. 54:43
Myke Hurley: Right. 54:50
Myke Hurley: I didn't know Jason when I interviewed him the first time. 54:51
Myke Hurley: I well, I knew Jason. 54:54
Myke Hurley: Jason didn't know me, you know, like that kind of thing. 54:56
Myke Hurley: And so like doing those and and being good enough at it that people thought that I was interesting and that they wanted to keep in touch with me, that brought me into where I am now. 54:59
Myke Hurley: And I hadn't done this for such a long time. 55:10
Myke Hurley: I was like, do I still have the stuff? 55:12
Myke Hurley: Um and I and I think I do because people seem to be enjoying it. 55:14
Max Roberts: Well, you do still have this stuff. 55:19
Max Roberts: And you're absolutely right. 55:21
Myke Hurley: Thank you. 55:21
Max Roberts: Every every interview episode is a roller coaster. 55:22
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 55:25
Max Roberts: Uh 55:25
Max Roberts: And that's it's part of why because this show is also the same thing as an interview show. 55:26
Max Roberts: I have a few annual episodes with longtime friends and things like that. 55:32
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 55:35
Max Roberts: um which is always a great time. 55:35
Max Roberts: You know, E3 predictions with Logan is one of my we've been doing that s since the mid teens, you know? 55:37
Max Roberts: And I'm like, well, I'm not stopping. 55:43
Myke Hurley: Yep. 55:44
Max Roberts: That will go on until I until I give it up. 55:46
Myke Hurley: Yeah, I'm I'm I'm thinking at some point I'm gonna have stuff 55:48
Myke Hurley: like that because the the the current plan is that when Grey does return, I'm probably gonna keep doing these, I think. 55:51
Max Roberts: That's what she said in the enthusiast on your blog. 55:58
Myke Hurley: I don't know if it yeah. 55:59
Max Roberts: You said that you want to keep doing the show. 56:01
Myke Hurley: I I hope that I can continue doing them on a monthly basis. 56:04
Myke Hurley: Um I think there will have to be some other changes I need to make to my life to be able to fit two episodes a month of Cortex. 56:08
Myke Hurley: Like that is gonna be a the 56:14
Myke Hurley: This is the thing is I don't know what that looks like yet, if I'm being honest. 56:16
Myke Hurley: Um 56:19
Max Roberts: You wrote in that same blog post as proving something to myself on The Enthusiast. 56:20
Max Roberts: You talk about how the episodes are a lot of work. 56:25
Max Roberts: And you say it's even more work than an episode with Gray. 56:27
Max Roberts: And the way that the two of you talk about the edit for an episode of Cortex sounds unbelievably daunting to someone like me. 56:30
Myke Hurley: Yes 56:31
Max Roberts: I'm like, I can't even wrap around how it's more so 56:37
Max Roberts: What what is it that makes this more challenging? 56:41
Max Roberts: Is it that roller coaster? 56:44
Max Roberts: Is it the edit? 56:46
Max Roberts: Is it all of it bundled up into one? 56:46
Myke Hurley: Um way more pre work. 56:49
Max Roberts: Hmm. 56:51
Myke Hurley: Uh i into I think interview questions uh is is a much 56:53
Myke Hurley: more complicated production process than having a topic and writing some thoughts about that topic. 57:00
Myke Hurley: Because you know, sometimes it includes a research. 57:09
Myke Hurley: Like I'm reading a book right now because of a future guest. 57:11
Myke Hurley: So it's like, well 57:16
Myke Hurley: I ha they this person is an author and I feel like I would be a bit of a fraud if I didn't if I asked them questions about their books, having never read one. 57:17
Myke Hurley: Uh and so I'm familiar with them throughout the work. 57:27
Myke Hurley: Um and so like th they're also a reporter as well as a writer and I read all their reports, but I haven't read one of their books. 57:30
Myke Hurley: So it's like, well I better read one of the books. 57:38
Myke Hurley: That is a that's a big and that is like I may not even reference anything in the book, right? 57:41
Myke Hurley: So like that is for me a lot of prep work. 57:47
Myke Hurley: uh but also just the general uh thinking of questions, writing them out, what are they gonna say, writing responses that are like doing that whole thing is is very time consuming. 57:50
Myke Hurley: But also, so like one of the hardest parts of Cortex has always been the edit because we are very particular with it from a content perspective, but also a quality perspective. 58:02
Myke Hurley: Um and it used to be um Gray would take a content pass and then I would do a content and a quality pass. 58:12
Myke Hurley: And that took a really long time. 58:19
Myke Hurley: It was like ten hours of edit work. 58:21
Myke Hurley: Um I say ten hours just for that part. 58:24
Myke Hurley: And then there is a multiple hours afterwards for getting the show prepared to go in all the places, but just the listen through edit was like a ten hour thing. 58:27
Myke Hurley: Then we brought in an editor who did that. 58:35
Myke Hurley: And then I just did one listen through, basically. 58:38
Myke Hurley: Um 58:43
Myke Hurley: to make sure that it was good. 58:44
Myke Hurley: And so that really reduced it. 58:45
Myke Hurley: But since I've been doing this series, I actually do another content pass, which I stopped doing. 58:47
Myke Hurley: Because Gray did the content pass. 58:52
Myke Hurley: That's I don't know if I mentioned that. 58:54
Myke Hurley: So uh our editor would do the edit, Gray would do the content, so they flipped it around. 58:56
Myke Hurley: Gray would do the content pass. 59:01
Myke Hurley: And then they would pass it to me to bundle it up, do a final listen through and post everything. 59:03
Myke Hurley: But now my editor is doing a content and quality pass, and then I am doing another content and quality pass 59:08
Myke Hurley: And then I'm doing another listen through, and then it's going out to post. 59:17
Myke Hurley: So there is a whole multi-hour stage that has been added back into Cortex that didn't exist. 59:22
Myke Hurley: And so there is a lot more pre and post-production work for me on State of the Workflow than there was on than there had been on Cortex for over a year, maybe more. 59:29
Myke Hurley: Um and so yeah, it's it's added in a lot more to the process. 59:41
Myke Hurley: But I am enjoying I am enjoying having done these. 59:46
Myke Hurley: Um and so 59:51
Myke Hurley: I uh imagine that I will be able to keep doing it. 59:53
Myke Hurley: And it will also be, I think it will take some of the pressure off me when it's not the only thing that it that Cortex is. 59:56
Myke Hurley: I think it will take some of the pressure away 01:00:04
Myke Hurley: Because it is a lot of pressure. 01:00:06
Myke Hurley: Like I I feel like I'm do uh really doing my best to remind the audience why they want to keep hearing me and keep hearing the show. 01:00:08
Myke Hurley: And so like I'm I'm 01:00:17
Myke Hurley: I'm kind of like holding everything together for us while my co-host is doing what he needs to do. 01:00:18
Myke Hurley: Um and because we support each other, like that's what I'm gonna do. 01:00:23
Myke Hurley: But it will be really nice when that's not all it is anymore. 01:00:28
Max Roberts: Yes, when when the team is back together, the duo. 01:00:31
Myke Hurley: When we're all back and everything's fine and then we're producing the show as normal, uh I think it will be it will be m it will be I will be able to be more chill about it, I think. 01:00:34
Max Roberts: Yeah, I get that. 01:00:44
Max Roberts: I get that feeling. 01:00:46
Max Roberts: I'm curious if sitting down and making this show, I mean a show within a show, show within the feed, I suppose, a very, very serial New York Times sort of move, putting a show inside your other show's feed. 01:00:48
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:00:54
Myke Hurley: Yep. 01:00:55
Max Roberts: Um 01:01:00
Max Roberts: Did it make you miss making new shows? 01:01:02
Max Roberts: I think when people start out in this hobby, especially when they're younger, they're like, oh, I want to do a podcast about this, this, this, and this. 01:01:04
Max Roberts: And and then when you're trying to make it your job, you're also out there hustling and making a bunch of shows 01:01:11
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:01:11
Max Roberts: You've obviously tamed that a lot back in. 01:01:15
Max Roberts: Relay itself, both you and Steven have talked about not adding new shows to the network. 01:01:19
Max Roberts: I'm curious, does it 01:01:24
Max Roberts: Do you miss any of that at all? 01:01:26
Max Roberts: Or is it because it's your job and there's ads and all the other pressure to it that it's like, ah, I'm good 01:01:28
Myke Hurley: I mean starting new things is like the best thing you can do as a creative person. 01:01:34
Myke Hurley: There's nothing more exciting than a new project. 01:01:38
Myke Hurley: Um and I'm still doing that in my life, right? 01:01:41
Myke Hurley: So, you know, we have Cortex Brand, which is a physical products business and 01:01:44
Myke Hurley: I'd love it to be every year, but it's not, but let's just say every year we have a new product that we add to our lineup. 01:01:49
Myke Hurley: But at least every year we feel like we're close to adding a new product to the lineup. 01:01:55
Myke Hurley: So it still has that feeling. 01:02:00
Myke Hurley: And then I also started doing some work with um David Smith and Steven Hackett uh CrossFord. 01:02:02
Myke Hurley: So kind of like they're, you know, very successful app developers. 01:02:09
Myke Hurley: Um 01:02:13
Myke Hurley: And um helping them with marketing. 01:02:15
Myke Hurley: So that's like a whole new part of my life. 01:02:17
Myke Hurley: And and that's really fun. 01:02:18
Myke Hurley: Like I I like learning and doing new things 01:02:19
Myke Hurley: And I didn't expect it would necessarily feel this way, but it absolutely felt like a new thing to me when I started Stay at the Workflow. 01:02:23
Myke Hurley: Um and still kind of has some of that think thing to it. 01:02:31
Myke Hurley: And I think it's helped by the fact that every episode is different. 01:02:34
Myke Hurley: There is a an element of it being like a new thing, which is very exciting because I am learning on the job. 01:02:37
Myke Hurley: Um, I think the show's getting better. 01:02:45
Myke Hurley: Um 01:02:47
Myke Hurley: And it's been really exciting to like have that feeling of of newness again, uh, which is something you're right, I I hadn't had that in a really long time because I'd stopped producing new podcasts. 01:02:48
Myke Hurley: uh because they just were not successful enough by and large because you know again the industry has kind of changed uh around us 01:03:01
Myke Hurley: Um it's like similarly with relays, like we're happy with what we have. 01:03:09
Myke Hurley: Um adding is really complicated now. 01:03:13
Myke Hurley: And so we're kind of doing the best that we can to super serve our current audience, then trying to find a new one. 01:03:15
Myke Hurley: Um 01:03:22
Myke Hurley: And so that's working for us. 01:03:23
Myke Hurley: So we're gonna keep doubling down on the people we have rather than trying to to change who we are to reach out to others. 01:03:24
Myke Hurley: Um so yeah, it it has had that newness feeling and uh and that is actually really nice. 01:03:32
Max Roberts: Yeah, I can imagine. 01:03:37
Max Roberts: It's it's it's a fun challenge, especially uh 01:03:40
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:03:42
Max Roberts: Especially since you hadn't done one like an interview show like that in so long, it's like, ah, this is this is good. 01:03:45
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:03:50
Max Roberts: It's it's a fun time. 01:03:51
Max Roberts: I saw a not terribly long ago, I don't remember when, uh on I I wanna say blue sky 01:03:52
Max Roberts: You put out like a hey, who would you like to see on State of the Workflow? 01:04:00
Max Roberts: And I knew I knew I was gonna have you on the show, so I figured I would uh just voice my pitches here. 01:04:05
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:04:05
Myke Hurley: Okay. 01:04:12
Max Roberts: Um 01:04:12
Myke Hurley: I'll tell you if I've reached out to any of them as well. 01:04:14
Myke Hurley: I'll let you know. 01:04:17
Max Roberts: Okay. 01:04:17
Myke Hurley: Uh that's that's you'll get that. 01:04:18
Max Roberts: Scott the Waz. 01:04:20
Myke Hurley: Scott's on my list. 01:04:21
Max Roberts: Okay. 01:04:23
Myke Hurley: I have not yet reached out to him. 01:04:23
Myke Hurley: I am not super familiar with Scott. 01:04:25
Myke Hurley: The way I became familiar with Scott is I did a collab video with Quinn Nelson. 01:04:28
Myke Hurley: And s and and Quinn explained to me who Scott was. 01:04:35
Myke Hurley: I looked him up. 01:04:38
Myke Hurley: I could see he was a successful content creator. 01:04:39
Myke Hurley: But every single post about this collab, every comment. 01:04:42
Myke Hurley: It's people talking about Scott. 01:04:46
Myke Hurley: So s I can tell that he has a incredibly engaged audience, not just a large one. 01:04:47
Myke Hurley: There is something about him that people love him. 01:04:57
Myke Hurley: I have yet to do the deep dive into Scott the Waz that I think is needed. 01:05:00
Myke Hurley: Um, but at some point I will reach out to him because I have his email address now because we were on that's that is how uh I booked Marquez for the show. 01:05:05
Max Roberts: Mm-hmm. 01:05:13
Myke Hurley: We had been on that collab together and we were on an email chain and so I reached out to him and said, Would you like to come on the show? 01:05:14
Myke Hurley: And he was 01:05:20
Myke Hurley: He he wanted to do it and so we we walked out of time. 01:05:21
Myke Hurley: Um so I you know I I I'd at some point expect to reach out to Scott. 01:05:24
Myke Hurley: Um 01:05:28
Myke Hurley: But again, I never want to make any presumptions. 01:05:29
Myke Hurley: I tend not to talk too much about who and who I'm not booking because, you know, th the the people have a lot of stuff going on in their lives and it it it 01:05:32
Myke Hurley: You know, it doesn't necessarily work. 01:05:41
Myke Hurley: But yes, I I will tell you though, because that's that's just fun. 01:05:43
Myke Hurley: But yes, Scott is on my list. 01:05:46
Max Roberts: Cool. 01:05:47
Max Roberts: That's great. 01:05:48
Max Roberts: I have tried reaching out to Scott and that's the you know, that's like googling for an email just hoping that that answer is correct. 01:05:49
Myke Hurley: Oh yeah. 01:05:54
Max Roberts: Yeah, it's so it's impossibly hard. 01:05:55
Myke Hurley: Oh yeah. 01:05:55
Myke Hurley: It's so hard. 01:05:56
Myke Hurley: Yeah, it's very, very, very difficult to to contact people. 01:05:57
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:05:57
Myke Hurley: I mean it's also been super interesting to me that I have gone through some agents. 01:06:01
Myke Hurley: now, which is that's different to me than before. 01:06:05
Max Roberts: Oh that's cool. 01:06:06
Myke Hurley: It's not cool. 01:06:09
Myke Hurley: It's not cool. 01:06:10
Myke Hurley: I I much prefer talking to the person. 01:06:11
Max Roberts: Sure. 01:06:13
Myke Hurley: Um but go going through agents has been uh a fascinating experience. 01:06:14
Myke Hurley: I will say they respond faster, even if it's a no. 01:06:18
Myke Hurley: The agents actually do say no, they don't just ignore you. 01:06:21
Myke Hurley: So I I like that at least. 01:06:24
Max Roberts: Thank you. 01:06:24
Max Roberts: A know is so much better than just not knowing. 01:06:26
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:06:29
Max Roberts: So yeah, Scott would be great. 01:06:31
Max Roberts: I would I would live vicariously through you if you got to interview him. 01:06:33
Max Roberts: That would be a blast. 01:06:36
Max Roberts: And then I kind of thought it would be fun. 01:06:37
Max Roberts: Both for you and obviously the audience, but I would personally love Greg Miller or Tim Geddes. 01:06:41
Max Roberts: I think that'd be fascinating to see Yeah. 01:06:46
Myke Hurley: I've reached out to both of them. 01:06:48
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:06:57
Myke Hurley: I just need to meet them at a time when I think that they'll be receptive to that. 01:06:57
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:07:01
Myke Hurley: Um, yes. 01:07:01
Max Roberts: That's the other angle of pitching guests is like, oh, are you not busy right now? 01:07:02
Max Roberts: Uh 01:07:07
Myke Hurley: I mean I emailed Greg just before 01:07:08
Myke Hurley: Tim so they're like co-founders are kind of funny if people don't know. 01:07:10
Myke Hurley: Then Tim announced he was having a baby and when a paternity leave. 01:07:13
Myke Hurley: So it's like, well, there's no point in me following this up now because he is currently running this business on his own. 01:07:17
Myke Hurley: So he's not going to have the time for that. 01:07:22
Myke Hurley: But I think at some point I will be able to have one of them on the show and I think we could have a really good conversation. 01:07:24
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:07:24
Max Roberts: I I remember when you were getting into Kind of Funny, because you you mentioned it on a show. 01:07:32
Max Roberts: I don't remember which one. 01:07:36
Max Roberts: I was like, oh that's funny. 01:07:37
Max Roberts: Because I had been falling 01:07:39
Max Roberts: Uh Greg specifically from his podcast Beyond Days at IGN. 01:07:40
Myke Hurley: Yeah, yep. 01:07:44
Max Roberts: I mean he is he is the reason that I started a blog. 01:07:44
Max Roberts: I wanted to work at IGN. 01:07:47
Max Roberts: I was a freelancer for them on their guides team for quite a while. 01:07:48
Max Roberts: Um like he's he's 01:07:51
Max Roberts: A huge part of why I do this. 01:07:54
Myke Hurley: He's absolutely an OG. 01:07:56
Max Roberts: Um Oh yeah 01:07:56
Myke Hurley: Like, he was one of those people at the beginning, kind of thing, but just in gaming rather than tech, but he's been doing it for that long. 01:07:58
Max Roberts: Yeah, he is he's classic and I'm so curious how his his workflow has changed. 01:08:06
Max Roberts: I'm um 01:08:11
Max Roberts: I've had Roger on the show. 01:08:12
Max Roberts: Roger and I are friends, so he was on a very early episode. 01:08:13
Max Roberts: And that was before he worked at kind of funny. 01:08:16
Max Roberts: He was just editing videos. 01:08:18
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:08:19
Max Roberts: And I was like, you will work there someday. 01:08:19
Max Roberts: And uh and it 01:08:22
Myke Hurley: Yeah, I saw I saw that in your in your because I was looking at your guest list uh a while ago and I saw that Roger was on the show and that's great. 01:08:22
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:08:25
Myke Hurley: I love Roger, he's the best. 01:08:28
Myke Hurley: I love him so much. 01:08:29
Myke Hurley: I love all those guys. 01:08:30
Myke Hurley: They're amazing. 01:08:32
Myke Hurley: Like they have such a good coralery and clearly like the the kind of funny management to there they have a good eye for picking people that will work in their team because 01:08:33
Myke Hurley: Everybody works. 01:08:43
Myke Hurley: Everybody fills a great spot. 01:08:44
Max Roberts: Yeah, they they're a great team and I would love and I'm I'm familiar with Tim of course too, but I 01:08:46
Max Roberts: I don't know how Tim works, I I feel like, is the thing. 01:08:52
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:08:55
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:08:56
Max Roberts: Like I feel like that part is mysterious. 01:08:56
Max Roberts: I know he does all the shows, the hype. 01:08:58
Max Roberts: I you know, I don't know if you've gone back and watched some of the kind of funny live events that they did. 01:09:00
Max Roberts: Like, you know, I okay. 01:09:06
Myke Hurley: Oh, I have 01:09:06
Max Roberts: Do you remember a proposal where someone proposed to their would-be wife there? 01:09:08
Myke Hurley: Yeah, I think so. 01:09:13
Max Roberts: Did you see that? 01:09:13
Max Roberts: That's my friend Myke. 01:09:14
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:09:14
Max Roberts: And he was there and proposed. 01:09:16
Myke Hurley: Oh no way 01:09:16
Max Roberts: Yeah, yeah. 01:09:17
Max Roberts: I talk to Myke every day. 01:09:18
Max Roberts: So we're really good friends. 01:09:19
Max Roberts: Um you know, I I went to their wedding from the proposal. 01:09:21
Max Roberts: So it's just like this small thing that like, oh 01:09:25
Max Roberts: all around. 01:09:28
Max Roberts: But I don't know how Tim works. 01:09:29
Max Roberts: And I did actually I did meet Tim once. 01:09:30
Max Roberts: They did a meet and greet here in Florida. 01:09:32
Max Roberts: I think they were visiting full sale university here. 01:09:35
Max Roberts: So I got to see Greg, which is great. 01:09:37
Max Roberts: And there's a huge crowd around Greg, right? 01:09:39
Max Roberts: Just like this 01:09:41
Myke Hurley: Well, because he's unavoidable, he's super tall too, right? 01:09:42
Max Roberts: He uh yeah, very tall. 01:09:43
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:09:45
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:09:46
Max Roberts: Uh you know, he just has this energy. 01:09:46
Max Roberts: Everyone loves him. 01:09:49
Max Roberts: And it was toward the end of the night and there weren't as many people around him, and I'm not 01:09:50
Max Roberts: But that let my wife and I talk to Tim a bit more intimately. 01:09:54
Max Roberts: It was great. 01:09:58
Max Roberts: And she was wearing like a really old school hella shirt. 01:09:58
Max Roberts: And he was like, oh, you're an OG. 01:10:01
Max Roberts: Like you've been you know, if you've got this merch, you know, you've been around a while. 01:10:02
Max Roberts: But I would love to know how Tim works as well. 01:10:06
Max Roberts: I think that's a fascinating thing. 01:10:08
Myke Hurley: Cause he runs the business, right? 01:10:08
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:10:10
Myke Hurley: So like I I I feel like I have a sense for some of the stuff that he does. 01:10:10
Myke Hurley: Um 01:10:15
Myke Hurley: But I would love to know a little bit more. 01:10:16
Myke Hurley: And also that they're clearly changing as an organization. 01:10:19
Myke Hurley: Like they brought Russ Frushtik in to kind of help them with advertising and stuff, which I thought was 01:10:22
Max Roberts: Yes 01:10:27
Myke Hurley: fascinating move. 01:10:28
Myke Hurley: Which then you realize, oh, it's because Tim was gonna become a dad. 01:10:29
Max Roberts: Team was leaving 01:10:32
Myke Hurley: It's like a thing you didn't know at that time. 01:10:33
Myke Hurley: It's like, oh he's not gonna be there. 01:10:35
Myke Hurley: So they should probably start like 01:10:37
Myke Hurley: I mean also I think you know the the landscape changes and I think that the the company that sells their ads is is gone a little bit haywire so I think it helps to have their own stuff. 01:10:39
Myke Hurley: Um but yeah, the the pieces start to to pull together. 01:10:49
Myke Hurley: But uh yeah, I would love to talk to both of them and I I hope that I can at some point. 01:10:52
Max Roberts: Me too. 01:10:56
Max Roberts: Those would be really, really fun. 01:10:57
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:10:58
Max Roberts: Before we go, I want I had one more question. 01:11:00
Myke Hurley: Okay. 01:11:03
Max Roberts: And I looked back in my original like pitch email to you and I mentioned that we might maybe talk about dad life a little bit. 01:11:03
Max Roberts: And I wanted to kind of frame it in this conversation and I had an idea. 01:11:11
Max Roberts: So I have a three-year-old daughter, your daughter Sophia, she just turned one. 01:11:17
Max Roberts: It was great. 01:11:21
Max Roberts: We talked a little bit before the show. 01:11:21
Max Roberts: And something I think about a lot with my daughter Eloise is 01:11:24
Max Roberts: Is she gonna even like look at the stuff I wrote or said? 01:11:30
Max Roberts: Like is she gonna care about these things? 01:11:33
Max Roberts: And you are in a very unique position to have upwards of 01:11:36
Max Roberts: 16 years and by the time Sophia could listen to any of this and understand what you're talking about, many, many more, not to make you feel older anything. 01:11:40
Max Roberts: But I'm curious if you've thought about that and how it makes you feel that like you're 01:11:49
Max Roberts: you know, your twenties, your thirties, and and so on and so forth are like preserved in a way where your your voice, your thoughts, and she might be interested in that someday. 01:11:53
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:11:59
Myke Hurley: Yeah, I th I thought about it a little bit. 01:12:04
Myke Hurley: I think it's one of these things like I have no idea 01:12:07
Myke Hurley: If she'll care. 01:12:12
Myke Hurley: I think she won't care until she's older. 01:12:14
Myke Hurley: Like much older. 01:12:16
Max Roberts: But 01:12:16
Myke Hurley: Because I think she's gonna grow up with me doing certain stuff and it's not gonna be interesting to her. 01:12:17
Myke Hurley: Um 01:12:24
Myke Hurley: But I could imagine that as she gets older she might get a bit more nostalgic, um, that that these things could be of interest. 01:12:24
Myke Hurley: And I think that 01:12:32
Myke Hurley: I don't know how she'll feel about this, but I think if I had the ability to listen back to before I was born and could hear how my mum and dad would speak about the excitement of the 01:12:33
Myke Hurley: that. 01:12:46
Myke Hurley: I think that would be very special. 01:12:46
Myke Hurley: Um and I, you know, I got to tell the world about Sophia on Cortex and it was such a 01:12:48
Myke Hurley: Such an a a wonderful moment for me to be able to share that news. 01:12:56
Myke Hurley: And like and it was a thing that I had specifically chosen to do. 01:13:01
Myke Hurley: You know, like I'm a I'm a person who lives their life in public. 01:13:04
Myke Hurley: And so uh everybody thinks about their birth announcements now. 01:13:08
Myke Hurley: But I you know, people think about it. 01:13:13
Max Roberts: All the time. 01:13:14
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:13:16
Myke Hurley: It's a thing that people think about. 01:13:16
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:13:17
Myke Hurley: And I knew that I got to be able to have one that would be to tens of thousands of people, right? 01:13:18
Myke Hurley: Mm more even. 01:13:25
Myke Hurley: Like I 01:13:26
Myke Hurley: you know, I would get to have a an actual thing that I could share with people that I knew people would be very excited about. 01:13:27
Myke Hurley: And so I thought about it a lot and made the decision that like obviously my my theme for the year was going to be very focused around that 01:13:34
Myke Hurley: that. 01:13:42
Myke Hurley: So the time to share was with our Yearly Themes episode, which was actually eight weeks before she was born. 01:13:42
Myke Hurley: And also that felt right to me too. 01:13:49
Myke Hurley: You know, we had we had had, like many people, a a a complicated process. 01:13:51
Myke Hurley: to get to Sophia and I was very hesitant of sharing news before something could go wrong because that would have been incredibly difficult to be able to manage that. 01:13:56
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:14:04
Myke Hurley: Um, and so, you know, being able to share it right at that point worked out. 01:14:10
Myke Hurley: But so I have these moments that she may care about, going back and listening to. 01:14:14
Myke Hurley: And I yeah, I I do think that it's wonderful that there is 01:14:19
Myke Hurley: some record of my life that she will be able to dip into if that is of interest to her later. 01:14:25
Myke Hurley: I hope it will be. 01:14:32
Myke Hurley: But similarly I I'm not really um 01:14:34
Myke Hurley: I don't really want to force it on her in a way. 01:14:38
Max Roberts: Oh no, no, never. 01:14:40
Myke Hurley: Like I you know, for example, I if my mum said to me, here's my diaries, I don't think I would care to read them. 01:14:42
Myke Hurley: So as such. 01:14:49
Myke Hurley: Like I don't know how I know other people would feel differently about that, but like I don't think it would I don't I'm not sure I would want to know everything. 01:14:51
Max Roberts: Yeah 01:14:51
Myke Hurley: But like I and I guess the benefit is I don't share everything about my life on my podcasts. 01:14:59
Myke Hurley: But you know, I there there's lots of things that I think it's it's lovely that they're there and that she will be able to 01:15:04
Max Roberts: Right 01:15:04
Myke Hurley: to to dip into that and it's yeah it's it's another reason to continue doing some of the stuff that I do I think you know. 01:15:11
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:15:19
Max Roberts: I think of it like when I stumble across pictures or old videos from my parents. 01:15:20
Max Roberts: Like 01:15:26
Max Roberts: Like the time I found I got the the video of their wedding back in 92, I was like, oh, this is cool. 01:15:26
Max Roberts: Like I can see people and places and things. 01:15:34
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:15:34
Max Roberts: But you just have, you know, thousands of hours of your voice. 01:15:36
Max Roberts: The chronology of Myke Early and his coverage of Apple. 01:15:41
Myke Hurley: Yeah. 01:15:43
Myke Hurley: Unfortunately it is a lot. 01:15:45
Max Roberts: It's well, not unf uh it doesn't have to be unfortunate. 01:15:47
Myke Hurley: For her, I think it would be unfortunate. 01:15:50
Max Roberts: There's if she becomes a completionist 01:15:51
Myke Hurley: There is a lot there. 01:15:53
Myke Hurley: Impo an impossible task, I think. 01:15:55
Max Roberts: I think so. 01:15:57
Max Roberts: Well, thank you so much, Myke, for joining me on the show. 01:15:59
Max Roberts: I really, really appreciate it. 01:16:02
Max Roberts: Um folks can go find your work over, I think the best place to point them would be relay. 01:16:05
Max Roberts: fm and then is it is it cortec cortexbrand. 01:16:10
Myke Hurley: Yep. 01:16:11
Max Roberts: com or what's what's the URL for okay. 01:16:14
Myke Hurley: Yes. 01:16:14
Myke Hurley: Cosaxbrand dot com, yeah. 01:16:15
Max Roberts: Those two places and um way forward, widget smith. 01:16:17
Myke Hurley: Yes, cross forward. 01:16:21
Max Roberts: Cross forward, that's it. 01:16:23
Myke Hurley: Uh yeah. 01:16:23
Myke Hurley: So um the work that I'm doing at Widgetsmith right now is mostly marketing and a lot of it is preparation for stuff that will come later. 01:16:25
Myke Hurley: Like trying to get a good good social media presence made, which is very hard for an app with an audience that the size that it has. 01:16:33
Myke Hurley: So it's been many, many, many months of work uh to get to a point where you still can't see what I'm doing. 01:16:40
Max Roberts: Yeah. 01:16:41
Max Roberts: One day, one day. 01:16:47
Myke Hurley: One day 01:16:48
Max Roberts: So everyone can go check out all those wonderful things that Myke does. 01:16:48
Max Roberts: Go listen to his shows. 01:16:52
Max Roberts: Subscribe. 01:16:53
Max Roberts: If you would like to see links to the things that we spoke about, you can check out your show notes. 01:16:54
Max Roberts: that we talked about in your podcast player, or as Myke said way back in the day, podcatcher was what they used to deep cut with Merlin Mann. 01:16:58
Myke Hurley: Oh, really? 01:17:05
Myke Hurley: Wow. 01:17:08
Myke Hurley: I mean they were I mean that's what they were called at one point. 01:17:08
Max Roberts: That's what they were called. 01:17:11
Myke Hurley: They were called podcatchers because they caught the pods, you know? 01:17:12
Max Roberts: So you could check out those show notes or you can head over to maxfrequency. 01:17:16
Max Roberts: net forward slash MFP 01:17:20
Max Roberts: Dash fifty one. 01:17:22
Max Roberts: But thank you all so much for listening, and until next time, Adios. 01:17:24