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Max Roberts 00:00 Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Max Frequency Podcast.
Max Roberts 00:02 I'm your host, Max Roberts, and I have the pleasure and honor of having back on the show after far too long, Tomas Franzese.
Max Roberts 00:10 Hey buddy.
Tomas Franzese 00:11 Hey, thank you for for having me on.
Tomas Franzese 00:13 It's yeah, it's been like almost or over four years at this point, I think, which is crazy to think about.
Max Roberts 00:17 Uh, yeah, it's been a a horrifyingly long time.
Tomas Franzese 00:19 Yeah.
Max Roberts 00:21 You were here back on um on episode thirteen of the show
Max Roberts 00:26 And what I think is one of my the great names of this actual this podcast, uh, Go Back to Daddy Microsoft, um, where we were talking about
Tomas Franzese 00:34 Yeah.
Max Roberts 00:37 the of basically sixty-nine billion dollar acquisition of um you know of Activision Blizzard King blah blah blah by um by Microsoft, you know
Max Roberts 00:48 And look how that's turned out some
Tomas Franzese 00:50 Yeah, it was it was crazy going back I I didn't listen to the whole thing, but I like
Tomas Franzese 00:54 went through it and some of the stuff like there was stuff I forgot about like the whole like Raven Software Unionization stuff.
Tomas Franzese 01:00 Like I was like, oh yeah, this was like a big deal back then.
Tomas Franzese 01:02 And then um even me, I think at one point I was like
Tomas Franzese 01:05 Oh, uh, in 2025, Call of Duty will be Microsoft exclusive.
Tomas Franzese 01:10 I think is like the bold prediction I had.
Tomas Franzese 01:12 And just how like confident I was it would Call of Duty would like work with Game Pass, and that's just
Tomas Franzese 01:17 Like the data is just shown.
Tomas Franzese 01:18 Like, no, they actually lost subscribers when they added Call of Duty.
Max Roberts 01:22 It's crazy.
Tomas Franzese 01:22 Where yeah.
Max Roberts 01:23 And then and now they're they're they've um retcon that or um
Max Roberts 01:27 Um, reneged on it where it's now it's not on Game Pass year one or whatever, which it should have been like that from the get-go.
Tomas Franzese 01:33 Yeah, which I mean th they shouldn't have bought Activision.
Max Roberts 01:33 You want people to buy Call of Duty
Tomas Franzese 01:37 Like it's been it's pretty obvious in hindsight where it was like, yeah, they just shouldn't have done that.
Tomas Franzese 01:42 But
Max Roberts 01:42 Yeah, Phil Phil maybe would still have a job
Tomas Franzese 01:42 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:47 Yeah, it's yeah, it's I I know we'll probably talk a little bit more about this later, but yeah, it's like a I do think it was a thing where they kind of saw their writing on the wall and they were like
Tomas Franzese 01:56 If we if we need to get Game Pass to like a hundred million, we need to buy like Call of Duty to make that happen.
Tomas Franzese 02:03 And then I think so I think they just took this bold like Hail Mary thing and then just like completely whiffed on it.
Max Roberts 02:07 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 02:09 Uh
Max Roberts 02:09 They yeah, and we will
Tomas Franzese 02:10 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 02:11 Which still still self-inflicted, but yeah.
Max Roberts 02:14 It's very self-inflicted.
Max Roberts 02:15 And we will talk about it, I think, in part because, like I did four four years ago, I brought you back to talk because things are going on.
Max Roberts 02:25 in the industry right now between it's like you said actually before we started recording Xbox and PlayStation are duking it out to see which company could be the worst in the public eye right now.
Tomas Franzese 02:25 Yeah.
Max Roberts 02:36 And I couldn't think of anyone better to come and kind of like break all of that down.
Max Roberts 02:40 But before we do that, we gotta talk about you, Tomas, and what you've been up to because the last time you were here, you were at Digital Trends.
Max Roberts 02:49 A lot's happened since then in your career.
Max Roberts 02:52 But now you are the weekend editor over at Polygon, which is wild, and you have a newsletter remastered.
Tomas Franzese 02:56 Yes.
Max Roberts 03:00 And I wanted to talk about those things first because
Max Roberts 03:03 as a fellow a writer, someone with a journalism degree, you're actually doing like the real work.
Max Roberts 03:08 Uh I just blog.
Max Roberts 03:10 But um
Max Roberts 03:11 I really wanted to kind of dive into these two things with you, and I think I want to start with Polygon because back in
Max Roberts 03:21 the like the day when I was reading a ton of video game news at first and was like, oh, I could do this as a job.
Max Roberts 03:28 The sites you would go read were IGN
Max Roberts 03:32 Kotaku and Polygon and now you work at Polygon as a weekend editor.
Max Roberts 03:37 Um I wanna what's it like over there?
Max Roberts 03:41 How did you end up
Max Roberts 03:43 at Polygon and as the weekend editor, which I always think is a fascinating job to begin with.
Tomas Franzese 03:49 Yeah, for sure.
Tomas Franzese 03:50 So so yeah, like the the short history of it is I worked at Digital Trends for about three years.
Tomas Franzese 03:55 I think the last time I was on it just
Tomas Franzese 03:56 started there.
Tomas Franzese 03:57 I was unfortunately laid off in January 2025 while in Las Vegas for a work event.
Tomas Franzese 04:03 If you've seen uh the Devil Verse Prada 2, that uh first scene.
Tomas Franzese 04:07 uh happened to me, which was uh funny to watch that movie.
Tomas Franzese 04:10 Um but then uh yeah um and so then yeah so I'd been freelancing since then at like a variety of places, uh comic book
Tomas Franzese 04:18 Game sp GameStop or sorry, GameSpot, which was big for me because that was the one I read growing up.
Max Roberts 04:24 Yes
Tomas Franzese 04:24 Um and then uh
Tomas Franzese 04:26 around like the middle of last year Valnut uh kind of uh, you know, brought me on to kind of experiment with
Tomas Franzese 04:34 uh gaming content at a couple of their other like tech sites like Android Police and XDA.
Tomas Franzese 04:40 I did that for about six months and then uh you know just just with how big corporations work, that's like why put money into small thing when you could put more into big thing.
Tomas Franzese 04:49 Uh so they ultimately kind of went in a different direction on that, but you once you're in that system you kind of stay in it.
Tomas Franzese 04:55 And then, you know, there's there's a great team at kind of this like
Tomas Franzese 04:59 uh new version of of Polygon like like I said, great respect to like what that site was before and it's unfortunate everything that like happened when that acqu acquisition happened, but like
Tomas Franzese 05:09 the new team was uh that's there is like very good.
Tomas Franzese 05:11 I knew a lot of them from like inverse and digital trends past jobs I had.
Tomas Franzese 05:15 And so like the they just happened to offer of like, hey, we have this like weekend thing.
Tomas Franzese 05:20 It's pretty like independent.
Tomas Franzese 05:22 Um
Tomas Franzese 05:23 Kind of like news grindstone kind of coverage.
Tomas Franzese 05:25 And I was just like, oh yeah, sure.
Tomas Franzese 05:26 No, I'd I'd love to be a part of that.
Max Roberts 05:29 So does the weekend editor only work on the weekend?
Max Roberts 05:32 Are you like Friday to Sunday?
Tomas Franzese 05:32 Uh yeah, pr pretty much, yeah, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 05:36 Curr currently it's like uh technically like a contract thing where yeah I'm I'm there to like make sure that everything going live on the weekend like
Tomas Franzese 05:43 goes fine.
Tomas Franzese 05:44 Um but it it it extends to other stuff like I uh I'll write stuff during the week sometimes and then uh
Tomas Franzese 05:51 I guess Summer Game Fest, I would I did like uh quite a bit for them, like Blood of the Dawnwalker I interviewed and uh Blood Message, a lot of blood games.
Tomas Franzese 05:59 Blood Dungeon was another one.
Max Roberts 05:59 It's a very it was a very blood game fest.
Tomas Franzese 06:02 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 06:02 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 06:03 So uh so yeah, no, I and so yeah, I did some of that for them.
Tomas Franzese 06:07 So yeah, I'll write there for the weeks.
Tomas Franzese 06:08 But um yeah, without setup it's good because I can still like freelance.
Tomas Franzese 06:12 uh elsewhere and do my my newsletter which is good and i did kind of want that uh independence still with like how the position was so i'm kind of glad to have that balance and i'm also doing a uh
Tomas Franzese 06:23 a master's program right now.
Tomas Franzese 06:24 I'm kind of heading towards doing my thesis uh for I'm at uh it's the the degree is called lifespan in digital communication so it's like it's technically like a fancy term for like
Max Roberts 06:27 What are you getting a master's degree in?
Tomas Franzese 06:36 Communications meets like a little bit of sociology meets a little bit of like media studies.
Tomas Franzese 06:41 I'm definitely more on like the communications media studies half of it.
Tomas Franzese 06:44 But uh just because that's what interests me most.
Tomas Franzese 06:47 Uh but uh yeah, so it's kinda I'm kind of in my like uh, you know, doing multiple things at once.
Max Roberts 06:47 Right.
Tomas Franzese 06:53 era for that I think I'll look back on and be like, well, those couple years were I was doing like 70 things.
Max Roberts 06:58 Insane.
Tomas Franzese 06:59 Yeah.
Max Roberts 06:59 Yeah.
Max Roberts 07:01 I uh
Max Roberts 07:02 I know I have other friends who are like, Yeah, I'll do the masters and oh, I'll do this too.
Max Roberts 07:07 And then, oh, I'm also gonna get married at the same time.
Max Roberts 07:09 It's like
Max Roberts 07:10 Maybe we need to calm down just a little bit.
Tomas Franzese 07:12 Yeah.
Max Roberts 07:13 But you there's like a hustle energy, I think, with that, that just like we keep we keep going, we keep keep doing and writing and making and all these things
Tomas Franzese 07:14 For sure, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 07:23 I feel like yeah, obviously there's toxic sides to that, but yeah, I feel like I've had that in my career, like even going back to like
Tomas Franzese 07:28 dual shockers where we met where it's like I got that job when I was 17 because I like pestered them on Twitter.
Max Roberts 07:30 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 07:35 So it's like and so there's like a hustling energy to that.
Tomas Franzese 07:38 And then just like
Tomas Franzese 07:40 just b having the wherewithal to like stick with that is like basically not getting paid for like four years and then getting paid very little for another like two.
Max Roberts 07:47 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 07:49 Um where it like uh like that that requires like a passion to do it.
Max Roberts 07:54 It does.
Max Roberts 07:54 I bugged the IGM guides team and that's how I ended up a guide writer there.
Max Roberts 07:58 It's uh what that's what we used to do was bug people on Twitter.
Max Roberts 08:02 Now I don't think kids bug people on Twitter.
Max Roberts 08:05 They probably bug them on TikTok or something.
Tomas Franzese 08:06 Yeah, it's that it's that too, and yeah, the one thing in retrospect that I appreciate is that I did have the space to just like
Max Roberts 08:07 Uh
Tomas Franzese 08:12 mess around.
Tomas Franzese 08:13 Whereas I feel like if if you immediately start and you're in like um any of these like, you know, Valnet's one, but there's like a uh all of these like kind of recruiting like s uh I forget who owns
Tomas Franzese 08:26 slash film and like those people where it's there's some of these companies and they're basically just like looking for writers and it's all like you're writing a very specific kind of article usually if you're hired like that.
Tomas Franzese 08:36 And I think that's like much worse because you're very locked into like writing a certain way, whereas like at dual shockers, I could I had I had freedom to write like anything.
Tomas Franzese 08:43 And so I could be like, oh okay, I want to get it good at reviews now.
Tomas Franzese 08:46 I wanted to get good at um reporting now.
Tomas Franzese 08:49 And so like over time I felt like I was able to like improve at those things that I don't feel like I would have had that freedom had I like been starting now and just like churning out stuff for uh site.
Max Roberts 09:01 I think the only way really to do it now is either to happen to fortunately end up in a really good team in space that would allow that kind of growth and development.
Max Roberts 09:09 Or you gotta do it yourself on like your own website, but then and that and that becomes your portfolio in a way.
Tomas Franzese 09:11 Yeah.
Max Roberts 09:15 And that's what you're showing off to other people.
Max Roberts 09:17 But that
Tomas Franzese 09:17 Yeah, pretty much.
Tomas Franzese 09:18 It's yeah, it's that that would honestly like be my advice is like you
Tomas Franzese 09:23 Do your own thing.
Tomas Franzese 09:24 Like you are also more likely to have more stability if you like are doing a successful independent thing.
Tomas Franzese 09:31 Um where it's like obviously there's good things that come from being in like
Tomas Franzese 09:35 You know, learning in an actual like newsroom and things like that.
Tomas Franzese 09:38 Um, but like it's being independent's probably the the best way to go right now.
Max Roberts 09:44 Ever i it yes.
Max Roberts 09:45 Everyone start your own blog.
Max Roberts 09:47 Your own.
Tomas Franzese 09:48 Yep.
Max Roberts 09:48 Everything.
Max Roberts 09:49 Do it all on your own.
Max Roberts 09:50 Uh and then make it big somehow.
Tomas Franzese 09:53 Yes.
Max Roberts 09:53 Um but clicking through like some of your the you know the recent posts you have on Polygon, it's not just gaming, which is what I always have associated with Polygon.
Max Roberts 10:03 But it's it's broader entertainment as well.
Max Roberts 10:05 I see some movie things from you, like the Odyssey, which we both saw last Thursday and uh both liked quite a bit.
Tomas Franzese 10:09 Yep.
Tomas Franzese 10:11 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 10:12 Oh yeah, it was fantastic.
Tomas Franzese 10:13 I've been yeah, that's uh
Tomas Franzese 10:15 Yeah, just like it's it's inspired me to watch like more movies over the past week.
Tomas Franzese 10:19 Like that's how powerful that film was for your Yeah.
Max Roberts 10:21 Thank you, Christopher Nolan.
Max Roberts 10:24 On Sunday, so a a brief Odyssey tangent.
Max Roberts 10:28 We saw it at a local theater here in Central Florida called the Enzian.
Max Roberts 10:33 And they had a 70 they have a 70 millimeter projector, not IMAX, but just 70 millimeter film.
Max Roberts 10:40 And there was an issue
Max Roberts 10:43 during kind of the first third of the movie where it was like out of focus.
Max Roberts 10:47 It wasn't set up right.
Max Roberts 10:49 So it was just like fuzzy in the middle of the picture, which was just a tiny bit irksome, but I was like, it's okay.
Max Roberts 10:54 It's just film.
Tomas Franzese 10:55 Yeah, that's yeah.
Max Roberts 10:55 Enjoy the movie.
Max Roberts 10:57 And I so I didn't, you know, I was just what and they got it fixed in the mi you know, after that third in the press movie played fine.
Tomas Franzese 10:57 Yeah.
Max Roberts 11:04 Um but then the next day we got an email and no one I didn't complain about it, but we got an email and they were like, We're aware that we had this issue
Max Roberts 11:11 For these screenings, we're giving you all free tickets to go see it again.
Max Roberts 11:15 You know, same movie, same thing, uh, with free popcorn and free drink.
Max Roberts 11:19 It's one of those that serves food and stuff with it.
Max Roberts 11:22 So I'm going again on Sunday.
Max Roberts 11:24 But then it was so good.
Max Roberts 11:26 I uh booked a ticket to go to the only IMAX theater, like real IMAX theater in Florida, which is about four hours south of me.
Max Roberts 11:33 I'm gonna take a train
Max Roberts 11:35 And go go see it in a couple of weekends.
Tomas Franzese 11:35 Wow, yeah.
Max Roberts 11:38 So I'm like I'm odyssey pilled right now
Tomas Franzese 11:41 Yeah, no, it's a yeah, it's I'm too far from any like 70 millimeter IMAX screen to go like see it like that, but uh it's uh
Tomas Franzese 11:50 Def defin like I saw it just in normal like IMAX and it was it was fantastic like that.
Max Roberts 11:53 Yeah, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 11:56 Because usually even I'm not I'm usually not even that much of an IMAX guy, like I preferred the uh the Dolby rooms that they do because the sound's like so good in those.
Max Roberts 12:01 Yes, me too.
Tomas Franzese 12:05 Uh usually, but it was like that this was one where I was like, yeah, I gotta see it at IMAX and yeah, I would love to if I'm ever in New York and it's still in a one of those theaters or something, I'd go and see it.
Max Roberts 12:05 Yeah
Max Roberts 12:16 Yeah, you totally I assume that's what happened with me and Oppenheimer.
Max Roberts 12:20 I just happened to be out in California.
Max Roberts 12:22 uh close enough to one and was like, oh I will uh I will go see this.
Tomas Franzese 12:27 Yeah.
Max Roberts 12:27 And I was that guy in the the
Max Roberts 12:30 You know, the meme where it's like the dude booked the front row seat in the IMAX for Oppenheimer and it shows um yeah, it's sh is it is a it's not walking, it's not Christopher Walken, it's um
Tomas Franzese 12:34 Yeah, oh yeah, I remember yeah, I got I forgot that meme.
Tomas Franzese 12:37 Yeah it's not walking
Max Roberts 12:42 Green Goblin, who played Green Goblin?
Tomas Franzese 12:43 Well Defoe.
Max Roberts 12:43 Why am I blanking on his Willem Dafoe?
Tomas Franzese 12:45 Defoe.
Max Roberts 12:46 Yeah, for I think in the in I forget what movie, but he's looking way up.
Tomas Franzese 12:46 Yeah.
Max Roberts 12:49 That was me.
Max Roberts 12:50 I was in second row for Oppenheimer because
Tomas Franzese 12:52 Yeah.
Max Roberts 12:53 It was like last minute and I was like, oh my gosh, it's so big.
Max Roberts 12:57 Um it's a great time.
Tomas Franzese 12:57 Yeah, that's yeah.
Tomas Franzese 12:59 Middle back is where you want to be.
Tomas Franzese 13:01 Yeah.
Max Roberts 13:01 Kinda for those, yeah.
Max Roberts 13:04 But anyway, it's not just video games you're writing about.
Max Roberts 13:07 And uh at least when we wrote, it was always video game coverage and most of your stuff like over the years.
Max Roberts 13:13 Is this been a
Max Roberts 13:14 Is this something that you've wanted to write about, or is this just like this is part of what Polygon does, so I will write about movies type of thing?
Max Roberts 13:21 What what is it like moving into a more broad entertainment focus alongside the game stuff?
Tomas Franzese 13:28 Uh sure, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 13:29 So it entertainment is something Polygon even did like pre-Valnet.
Tomas Franzese 13:34 Like they've actually had an entertainment section for a little bit, and it's like I still consider myself like
Tomas Franzese 13:40 like very gaming focused because that's like, you know, what it what I came up in the industry through.
Tomas Franzese 13:44 But like I do also really enjoy like film I al like film film comics and games.
Tomas Franzese 13:49 Like I've d been into all the like uh nerdy stuff.
Tomas Franzese 13:53 So um
Tomas Franzese 13:54 Like that was part of the job that I was just like, oh cool, I get to write about this stuff now.
Tomas Franzese 13:58 Like I write the like if it's like a relevant weekend, I write like the box office stuff on s Sunday, which is fun, because I remember being a teenager, like going on IGN or
Tomas Franzese 14:08 deadline or whatever wherever and like reading those uh like Sunday box office uh stories.
Tomas Franzese 14:14 So I'm like it's it even if I like I'm doing that for someone now it's kind of cool to be that guy.
Tomas Franzese 14:18 And like I've been trying to put a little bit more of an
Tomas Franzese 14:21 opinionated spin on them like with the Odyssey I kinda wrote about how it's a testament to like, you know, people will go see movies that humans actually make.
Tomas Franzese 14:29 uh like well and then uh talking about like with uh when supergirl and minions kind of underperformed I was kinda like oh this is kind of like an end of franchise filmmaking in a way where like franchises don't guarantee like
Tomas Franzese 14:41 massive success, which Minions is pacing out.
Tomas Franzese 14:43 Well, that's a tangent we don't need to get into.
Tomas Franzese 14:45 But uh it's uh but it's it's a thing where uh
Tomas Franzese 14:50 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 14:50 It's just a tr like I I think that's the fascinating thing just seeing with films this year where you see like how well obsession did, um, and like how poorly stuff like Moana and uh like
Max Roberts 14:56 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 15:00 uh Supergirl did where it's just kind of like, oh yeah, there's this shift where like a few even just a few years ago you could be like, oh big IP film and it would like you'd comfortably make above like
Max Roberts 15:02 Yeah
Tomas Franzese 15:12 50 to 70 mil on it and then now it's like, oh no, you can like do that and make like under 40.
Max Roberts 15:18 Barely anything, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 15:19 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 15:20 Yeah
Max Roberts 15:20 And it's you know with Spider Man coming out in a couple of weeks
Max Roberts 15:25 I feel like that will do well just because it is Spider-Man, but maybe maybe the MCU fatigue is super real because uh, you know.
Max Roberts 15:34 I have seen yeah, I've kept watching all of the movies, not the shows, since post No Way Home, but it's been rough, dude.
Max Roberts 15:43 It's been a dark time in the MCU
Tomas Franzese 15:43 Yeah, it's I yeah, I do ultimate ultimately agree that it's a like uh it's both a quality and quantity problem where like I do think people will like
Tomas Franzese 15:54 a great franchise movie where it's like I I do think like it still can be a draw, but it's more like
Tomas Franzese 16:02 It'll draw them in week one.
Tomas Franzese 16:03 'Cause like the other thing you're seeing a lot with like uh Fantastic Four last year, a lot of the Marvel stuff, the new uh Mandalorian Star Wars movie.
Max Roberts 16:10 Mm-hmm.
Tomas Franzese 16:11 Is they have these huge week ones.
Tomas Franzese 16:13 I mean, even Supergirl, which like underperformed Supergirl, had like a comparatively big week one, and then there was like this massive drop-off.
Tomas Franzese 16:20 into weeks like two and three.
Tomas Franzese 16:22 And so I think we're at the point with the franchises where it's like, yeah, franchises will get people in the door like week one, but like you have to kind of
Max Roberts 16:27 It's a hardcore.
Tomas Franzese 16:28 You have to be like Superman last year, where it's also like a good movie that gets people talking, and then it's like, and then you'll pace out better, or you need to be something like that people haven't feel like they haven't seen before or just resonates like obsession.
Tomas Franzese 16:40 uh I which I feel like taps into just like uh Gen Z anxieties in a very way that like very much in a way that like no other film has done and then uh like the Odyssey which is just like
Tomas Franzese 16:52 Amazing like technical feat.
Max Roberts 16:53 The Odyssey is is a blockbuster done right though.
Tomas Franzese 16:54 Yeah.
Max Roberts 16:56 It's a prominent director, an incredible cast, and then it's I think what
Tomas Franzese 16:56 Yes.
Max Roberts 17:02 helps a lot is it's while the Odyssey is obviously based off Homer's poem, it it is original in the sense of like Christopher Nolan's not doing the next
Max Roberts 17:14 Iron Man movie or the next Star Wars or you know, Nolan, the only time he really has done sequels is his Batman trilogy.
Tomas Franzese 17:22 Yes, yeah.
Max Roberts 17:23 And and then most of its i original too
Tomas Franzese 17:23 No, it's it's I it's interesting though because actually it's like I think uh Oppenheimer was based on a book and The Odyssey was based on the poems.
Max Roberts 17:30 It is, yes.
Tomas Franzese 17:33 So it's like it is interesting where he is still technically like adapting, but yeah, I think like I hate the phrasing when people are like, Oh, like Nolan's the IP.
Tomas Franzese 17:41 But I do think there is something to just being like he is a filmmaker that just like through all the modern Hollywood has been able to kinda like
Tomas Franzese 17:49 independently do his own thing with the support of these corporations and it like it does pay off if you can cultivate like someone that talented like Warner Brothers fumbled where they had they had like most of his movies and then like let him go.
Max Roberts 18:00 They had all of them and tenant they left him out to dry in COVID and they and he was like Mind
Tomas Franzese 18:02 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 18:05 Yes.
Max Roberts 18:07 He is he's always been adamant about his movies being in the theater and drawing like a crowd and an experience.
Max Roberts 18:14 He's just he's always been that way.
Max Roberts 18:16 So that was like the breakup and Universal swooped him up for God knows how much money.
Tomas Franzese 18:19 And now he now he's done his two best movies, basically.
Max Roberts 18:22 And he's he finally got his Oscar Darling Oppenheimer kills, right?
Tomas Franzese 18:23 Yeah.
Max Roberts 18:27 Against, ironically, Warner Brothers Barbie, right?
Tomas Franzese 18:31 Yes.
Max Roberts 18:31 um with Barbenheimer and a moment that no no marketing manager could have ever predicted uh the Barbenheimer thing
Tomas Franzese 18:39 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 18:39 They're they're trying to do it again with uh Doomsday and Dune 3.
Max Roberts 18:42 Do yes
Tomas Franzese 18:43 So yeah, it's like Doomsday.
Tomas Franzese 18:45 I think they're trying to make a thing.
Tomas Franzese 18:46 But yeah, the thing too is just yeah, even j just the like the
Tomas Franzese 18:50 how perfectly they like the dichotomy of that where it's just like that's something you can't like ever replicate again.
Max Roberts 18:53 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 18:56 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 18:57 Cause that that was just like a coincidence that just happened to blow up and they stuck to the dates and it worked out.
Tomas Franzese 19:03 But but even like Barbie's I think a another good example though of like that's an I IPN of a franchise and it's just like if you just do like that really well like people will go see it like yeah
Max Roberts 19:13 Mm-hmm.
Max Roberts 19:13 Yeah.
Max Roberts 19:14 And they had um Greta Gerwig was the director and she's incredible.
Max Roberts 19:19 She's made super gre I loved
Max Roberts 19:21 her adaptation of Ladybird or Lady Bird not the adaptation of Little Women.
Tomas Franzese 19:25 Little women, yeah.
Max Roberts 19:27 She had Ladybird as well.
Tomas Franzese 19:27 Yeah.
Max Roberts 19:29 So yeah, I'm all for anything she's up to as well.
Tomas Franzese 19:31 And she's doing a Narnia, I think, next year.
Max Roberts 19:32 So
Max Roberts 19:33 Yes, with Netflix, which is that will be interesting as well, uh, to see that uh take a
Tomas Franzese 19:34 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 19:38 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 19:38 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 19:38 I think I think they're doing theatrical for that.
Tomas Franzese 19:41 They do that when the films are good now.
Tomas Franzese 19:43 Where they're like, oh, we should put these in theater.
Max Roberts 19:43 Yes, and as they should, you know.
Tomas Franzese 19:45 Yeah.
Max Roberts 19:46 So uh but yes, Nolan crushing it with the Odyssey.
Max Roberts 19:50 And yeah, I looked at your article here and it's smoking.
Max Roberts 19:54 Just
Max Roberts 19:55 opening weekend why highest grossing films the past weekend.
Max Roberts 19:58 And then you've got obsession and backrooms like also doing well this year just from a financial perspective relative to their budget.
Max Roberts 20:05 It's like guys, we don't always need it to be
Max Roberts 20:08 like the craziest, biggest thing.
Tomas Franzese 20:09 Yes, yeah.
Max Roberts 20:10 It can Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 20:11 I'm curious how uh Clayface does this year, uh, because that's like DC's horror movie that they're making for like 40 million, whereas like
Tomas Franzese 20:19 Supergirl was apparently like 170 million um to make uh which it is but it is interesting where it's like, yeah, I think if
Tomas Franzese 20:26 Like obviously there's like ripple effects that this causes, but you have to like you can make these like lower stakes franchises film films where it's like we can make 250 on it and like be happy.
Tomas Franzese 20:37 uh compared compared to being like, oh if we make 250, it's like we just made our costs on this back.
Tomas Franzese 20:43 Uh like and I feel like I mean and that even applies to gaming where I feel like that's like
Max Roberts 20:46 I was gonna say maybe games should take some notes.
Tomas Franzese 20:49 Yeah, where it's like like I said, there's bad things.
Tomas Franzese 20:51 Like I do I do think like I I don't think they're gonna successfully do it, but I do think that's what Microsoft is thinking right now, where they're kind of like, oh, if we focus, like uh
Tomas Franzese 21:02 like on the big things and try to make them for less money.
Tomas Franzese 21:06 Um like that produces the good thing, but often that comes at the cost of quality, unfortunately.
Tomas Franzese 21:12 Um so like it's
Tomas Franzese 21:14 You can you know what I mean?
Tomas Franzese 21:15 You can do something like fast, expensive, or like good, I think is like a thing people say.
Max Roberts 21:19 Yeah, it's like you can build it well, you can build it cheaply, or you can build it quickly.
Tomas Franzese 21:21 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 21:22 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 21:23 Yeah.
Max Roberts 21:24 And it's like you have two of the three.
Tomas Franzese 21:26 Yeah.
Max Roberts 21:26 And it's like
Max Roberts 21:28 Usually if you want it done well and quickly, it won't be cheap.
Max Roberts 21:32 If you want it done cheaply and quickly, it will not be good.
Tomas Franzese 21:32 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 21:36 Yeah
Max Roberts 21:38 So well the other kind of major pillar of what you're doing is your newsletter remastered, which is fully
Max Roberts 21:47 In Bennett.
Max Roberts 21:48 You're over there on the Ghost.
Max Roberts 21:50 The Ghost.
Max Roberts 21:51 Uh talk me through I guess launching a newsletter in this day and age, which
Max Roberts 21:59 Sometimes looking at it can feel like a very oversaturated market.
Max Roberts 22:02 I have a newsletter and a blog.
Max Roberts 22:04 I get it.
Max Roberts 22:05 So I'm just curious, what was the thought for you?
Max Roberts 22:08 Why why do it now?
Tomas Franzese 22:11 Uh sure, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 22:12 So I mean and and just like the simple answer to that is just like with how crazy media is now, like the most creatively rewarding stuff often.
Tomas Franzese 22:24 and like just the the most like interesting stuff you get to write about like it probably needs to be your own because like when you're working within modern corporate things like that was the honestly the most frustrating thing post like
Tomas Franzese 22:36 digital trends layoff where it's like at digital trends I had carte blanche to just be like, oh I have this kind of weird idea, but like I think I can make it work.
Tomas Franzese 22:44 And then because I was full time, it was just like, okay, yeah, like as long as you're doing everything you need to be doing, like we can
Tomas Franzese 22:50 pursue this kind of idea.
Tomas Franzese 22:52 Whereas like when you're a freelancer if you pitch something that odd, um like one newsletter I did was on this like
Tomas Franzese 22:59 These modders turn developers for uh these cult classic real-time strategy games called uh kill, crush, and destroy.
Tomas Franzese 23:06 Uh
Tomas Franzese 23:07 And basically these modders got hired by the company that owns the IP to do like a modern remaster update for for the games.
Tomas Franzese 23:14 And it's like that's something that like no site no like
Tomas Franzese 23:17 No site would cover that because it would get like fifty views and they'd be like, oh, uh like why would we do that when we could write about Fortnite
Max Roberts 23:21 Sure.
Tomas Franzese 23:25 Uh but with an independent newsletter, like I can cover that stuff, um, and you know, be proud of it and you know it's it's mine, it's something I own.
Tomas Franzese 23:34 Uh, you know, I can I haven't I'm not sure like what I'm gonna do yet, but like it would be interesting, like that's content I can mold into like other forms if I want to, if I ever want to make videos or podcasts out of those, like I could potentially do that in the future.
Tomas Franzese 23:46 So it's nice to have that stuff.
Tomas Franzese 23:48 And then I also, it's it's restrictive in some ways, but I do also like having a a focus kind of where I do I do keep it fairly broad where I can still kind of use it to
Tomas Franzese 23:58 blog on current events like the Sony physical media and Xbox stuff we're discussing today.
Tomas Franzese 24:03 But I do think uh not necessarily an issue but a shortcoming that I see with a lot of the new
Tomas Franzese 24:10 newsletters and sites that are popping up in gaming is that they all d do just want to kind of be IGN where it's just like, oh yeah, we just kinda write about anything and everything gaming.
Tomas Franzese 24:19 And I think that like
Tomas Franzese 24:21 not even necessarily for popularity, but it's just kind of like too hard to almost do everything nowadays.
Tomas Franzese 24:26 Whereas I feel like if you can be specific, it can restrict you in some ways of what you can cover, but it also like
Tomas Franzese 24:32 gives you a very clear focus and I feel like does make my newsletter like worth reading in a way compared to like if I was just reviewing like or just writing the same things as everyone else by like kind of forcing myself to be unique.
Tomas Franzese 24:45 I feel like it
Tomas Franzese 24:46 Uh even if it's not like the grandest like newsletter or story idea or anything.
Tomas Franzese 24:52 It's something that like gives it a people or a reason.
Tomas Franzese 24:55 to to subscribe.
Tomas Franzese 24:56 And yeah, it's just it's honestly just like looking at like this year of my work, it's like my favorite stuff is on the newsletter, which is is good, I think.
Max Roberts 25:04 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 25:05 Yeah.
Max Roberts 25:06 Restraint is
Max Roberts 25:08 a very powerful tool in keeping you focused and actually making you come up with creative ideas to fit kind of within the box.
Max Roberts 25:17 Which uh also applies in pretty much anything creative, like uh game development, music, like when you when you
Max Roberts 25:25 If you have everything open to you, then you can almost get like uh analysis paralysis or like indecisive, or then you're just throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Tomas Franzese 25:33 Yeah, it's
Tomas Franzese 25:37 Or it requires it to be bigger where it's like I think like I I am not privy to financial or subscriber numbers, but like I would just assume that like
Max Roberts 25:38 And
Max Roberts 25:41 Mm-hmm.
Tomas Franzese 25:47 You know, like I know how small what I'm doing is and it's like if there's there was like four of us trying to do this, like that becomes much like more concerning than whereas it's just kind of your personal project.
Tomas Franzese 25:58 Because then it's like, okay, if we
Tomas Franzese 26:00 And like the the road to getting it to be successful for me is like shorter, I guess, where you even see I think like Steven Totillo's publicly shared uh
Tomas Franzese 26:10 that he's made like a around a hundred thousand or something on his newsletter.
Tomas Franzese 26:13 And it's like, and that's good, because it's just him doing it.
Tomas Franzese 26:16 But it's like, technically even that, which is like one of the biggest gaming newsletters, like wouldn't be able to sustain a team of like
Tomas Franzese 26:22 even just like five people in the in a newsroom, which is like what some stuff wants to be.
Max Roberts 26:27 Yeah, no, absolutely.
Tomas Franzese 26:28 So yeah.
Max Roberts 26:29 I'm I'm curious then, because I'm I'm very uh
Max Roberts 26:35 technically minded.
Max Roberts 26:37 Um you didn't do Substack or or Button Down or any other newsletter platform.
Max Roberts 26:43 Uh you chose Ghost, which is part of the uh or can be federated.
Max Roberts 26:48 I think Platformer by Casey Newton is on Ghost.
Tomas Franzese 26:51 Yeah
Max Roberts 26:51 They left Stubstack as well.
Max Roberts 26:53 So I'm just curious
Max Roberts 26:55 Ghost always struck me as a more technical option.
Max Roberts 26:58 Obviously, Substack just wants to be as easy as possible, but also trap all their readers inside the Substack cage.
Max Roberts 27:09 Why ghost?
Max Roberts 27:10 Why did you pick ghost and how has that been just from like the back-end perspective?
Tomas Franzese 27:15 Uh sure, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 27:16 So yeah, I am not like a technical person at all, so it was I th and I think but that is good that I think it's like open source and you if I ever do want to like mess with it a lot I can.
Tomas Franzese 27:26 Uh so I think that's good.
Tomas Franzese 27:27 Um Substack I think just also has some like controversies and people they support on the platforms.
Tomas Franzese 27:34 uh that like I didn't love.
Tomas Franzese 27:36 There's already like a lot of competition with other gaming newsletter things and they don't even do a good job of like
Tomas Franzese 27:42 grouping them together, like I think they don't even really have like like they'll focus on some topics and they don't really on gaming for that.
Tomas Franzese 27:49 So that makes it less appealing.
Tomas Franzese 27:50 Um, but then the big thing is actually uh how I mentioned my thesis earlier, uh one of the professors I'm working with uh on on that, like uh Dr.
Tomas Franzese 27:59 McNutt.
Tomas Franzese 28:00 He also does a newsletter called uh Episodic Medium, uh, which it like reviews TV.
Tomas Franzese 28:06 Like it's a a lot of former AV club people because he
Tomas Franzese 28:09 Uh he used to review stuff for A V Club.
Tomas Franzese 28:11 Like their a lot of their classic uh office reviews that are read on like Office Ladies were actually like written by him.
Tomas Franzese 28:18 Um
Tomas Franzese 28:19 So uh yeah.
Tomas Franzese 28:20 So he does this episodic medium and when I was starting this, because and I'm he's like the main advisor on my thesis, uh, like we were talking through it and he was just like, Oh yeah, ghost is very good, and it's
Tomas Franzese 28:30 like uh less problem la problematic and it's more open source and like self-owned kinda.
Tomas Franzese 28:35 So I was just like, oh yeah, I'll go, I'll go with that.
Tomas Franzese 28:37 Where it's like maybe Substack would give me a little bit more
Tomas Franzese 28:40 reach and more tools and things like that.
Tomas Franzese 28:42 But uh like I'm happy.
Tomas Franzese 28:44 And even with how technical it is, like Ghost is actually very simple in terms of UI and kind of like WordPress, which I've uh worked a lot in.
Tomas Franzese 28:52 So it's just it's pretty like I don't want to
Tomas Franzese 28:55 pff have to do all this crazy stuff to get newsletters or feel like I'm part of this like weird ecosystem when I do.
Tomas Franzese 29:01 Uh but I could just, you know, have a s have a simple CMS own like a
Tomas Franzese 29:07 a URL that's unique and uh like write it on on that.
Max Roberts 29:10 Yeah.
Max Roberts 29:12 I definitely am of the philosophy of owning your as much of your stack as possible.
Max Roberts 29:16 That's definitely
Tomas Franzese 29:17 Yeah.
Max Roberts 29:18 Like I the I I tried to help my mom unsubscribe from a substack newsletter one time and it was like pulling teeth
Max Roberts 29:26 I couldn't believe it.
Max Roberts 29:27 I was like, I just want an unsubscribe button.
Max Roberts 29:30 It's over.
Max Roberts 29:31 I will, I will break up with you.
Tomas Franzese 29:31 Yeah.
Max Roberts 29:33 You cannot stop me.
Max Roberts 29:34 Um, but please make it easier for me.
Tomas Franzese 29:35 Yeah.
Max Roberts 29:37 Goodness gracious.
Max Roberts 29:38 It was
Tomas Franzese 29:39 Yeah, don't know that I'm demanding that, but yeah.
Max Roberts 29:39 It was agonizing.
Tomas Franzese 29:41 Yeah, no, but I get that.
Tomas Franzese 29:42 It's everything nowadays.
Tomas Franzese 29:43 It's just like, oh yeah, it's it's somehow legal to not let you unsubscribe easily.
Max Roberts 29:47 Yeah, we'll make it super easy to sign up.
Max Roberts 29:50 We'll make it impossible to unsubscribe.
Tomas Franzese 29:52 Yeah.
Max Roberts 29:53 It's ugh
Tomas Franzese 29:54 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 29:54 I think I think even the legislation for this got thrown out.
Tomas Franzese 29:57 But yeah, it's like where you go you go in an app and then it makes you go to like the website on your phone to like unsubscribe from like
Tomas Franzese 30:04 an app and you're just like, how's this like this all needs to be done within the the product?
Max Roberts 30:10 It thank you.
Tomas Franzese 30:10 Yeah.
Max Roberts 30:11 Thank you very much.
Tomas Franzese 30:11 Yeah.
Max Roberts 30:12 We we agree on that.
Max Roberts 30:14 I uh so you wrote I wanna say this was in this might be on your about page.
Max Roberts 30:20 I think yeah, this was your about page.
Max Roberts 30:22 your perspective like the kind of the pitch of of remastered.
Max Roberts 30:26 I'm just I'm gonna read your words to you.
Max Roberts 30:29 How's that sound?
Max Roberts 30:30 Um
Max Roberts 30:30 remastered will prioritize games from the past, but I don't want to do so under the lens of, quote, everything was better in the good old days of gaming, end quote.
Max Roberts 30:40 I find that sentiment permeates a lot of nostalgia and retrofocused gaming content.
Max Roberts 30:45 The biggest strengths and weaknesses have evolved over time, and the coverage of older games should reflect that.
Max Roberts 30:52 First of all, I love that.
Max Roberts 30:53 That's a beautiful way to kind of frame everything because
Max Roberts 30:57 There is a ton of nostalgia and retro focused content.
Max Roberts 31:01 It's like, oh, do you remember this game?
Tomas Franzese 31:04 Yeah, and and I will say I've even since the newsletter started, I think the only part of that I would tweak is like the remastered will prioritize games from the past because I actually find it a little more
Tomas Franzese 31:15 fascinating in how uh older games impact what we play today.
Tomas Franzese 31:19 And that can come in the form of like playing an older game today or like a remaster of an older title.
Tomas Franzese 31:24 But it may also just be like a um
Tomas Franzese 31:28 something on like a uh like a a new game that's inspired by older games.
Tomas Franzese 31:33 Like I'm hoping to within the next month have a couple interviews for stuff like that.
Tomas Franzese 31:37 Uh which it's and so but I I agree with like definitely like the the rest of that where
Tomas Franzese 31:42 Yeah, it's I I know I'm not the first guy to be like, remember like the sold stuff was good.
Tomas Franzese 31:48 Um and I also just like you there's also a lot of that content elsewhere, so I don't like need to compete with that, but
Tomas Franzese 31:55 Uh I also just think it's like you can learn a lot from learning at the past, contextualizing stuff.
Tomas Franzese 31:59 Like if I'm if I'm reviewing or covering something new, I like to then
Tomas Franzese 32:03 like have the like space to, you know, look at it historically.
Tomas Franzese 32:07 Like there was a Scott Pilgrim game earlier this year I covered and I kinda my angle into it was like talking about River City Ransom and how that that influenced it.
Max Roberts 32:15 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 32:17 Uh
Tomas Franzese 32:18 And so that's like kind of looking at the past to look at a new game.
Tomas Franzese 32:21 Uh and so so I think that that's generally and then I also just uh like some of that, there's like weird
Tomas Franzese 32:27 Sometimes you're watching these retro things and then it weirdly gets like very ultra conservative where like I remember there was like one guy was laughing at some retro game skits and then he had like a
Tomas Franzese 32:37 anti-vaxx one.
Tomas Franzese 32:39 And I was like, oh, what the heck?
Tomas Franzese 32:41 And uh or it's like so I just like a lot of that like nostalgic content can go into like, well everything sucks now and gaming, you know, wit woke and died and it's like, no, no, no, that's not
Tomas Franzese 32:51 uh like actually the case.
Tomas Franzese 32:53 Um and you can actually like learn a lot from being like, oh yeah, gaming gaming was like better in some ways back then, but it was also like terrible.
Tomas Franzese 33:01 You look at something where how is there was like no independent games before like
Tomas Franzese 33:06 2004 unless you're talking like shareware in the nineties.
Tomas Franzese 33:10 Um or it was like or it only existed as sh like shareware because like the system wouldn't allow that.
Tomas Franzese 33:16 Nowadays we have these indie games that can be inspired by older titles.
Tomas Franzese 33:20 And like find a lot of success.
Tomas Franzese 33:21 Uh so it's like it's interesting to Yeah.
Max Roberts 33:22 Thank you, Hollow Knight.
Max Roberts 33:25 It I mean, uh just looking at the front kind of page of remastered.
Max Roberts 33:31 blog right now, I mean
Max Roberts 33:33 Pragmata's up there came from this year.
Max Roberts 33:36 But I remember the conversation around that game when it came out.
Max Roberts 33:38 They're like, guys, this is like a 360 game and it's good.
Max Roberts 33:42 I'm like
Max Roberts 33:43 Well, yeah, some of those things come back.
Max Roberts 33:45 Um you you've got an article on Highguard, R.
Max Roberts 33:48 I.
Max Roberts 33:48 P.
Max Roberts 33:49 Uh
Max Roberts 33:50 More high guard.
Tomas Franzese 33:51 Yeah.
Max Roberts 33:52 Um, or I love this, and it actually reminded me of another article you wrote, but you have reviewing the three Fortnite games Epic Doesn't Want You to Play Anymore, which is just
Tomas Franzese 34:00 Yeah.
Max Roberts 34:01 Crazy.
Max Roberts 34:02 But then it reminded me, you're gonna remember this.
Max Roberts 34:05 You wrote at Digital Trends the headline, I've loved this article.
Max Roberts 34:09 Uh I paid $2 a day to play an abandoned Wii Sports sequel.
Tomas Franzese 34:12 Oh, yeah.
Max Roberts 34:13 Oh my gosh, what a ride, first of all, to remember that Wii Sports Club was a thing and you had to play on the lawn
Tomas Franzese 34:20 I I had actually wanted to write that one for a long time and then I think I just finally because that was
Tomas Franzese 34:25 Like right after I moved to Chicago and I brought my Wii U, kind of being like, oh, I'm gonna write about this.
Tomas Franzese 34:30 Because I think that was an idea I had in the the like inverse days.
Max Roberts 34:30 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 34:33 Um and then I think it was just its it was literally its anniversary or something.
Tomas Franzese 34:37 And like the I think the Wii U shop still existed then.
Max Roberts 34:37 Yeah, something like that.
Tomas Franzese 34:40 And so I was just like, can I do this?
Tomas Franzese 34:42 Like I don't even know if I expensed it, but I was just like, I'll I'll pay the two bucks a day.
Tomas Franzese 34:47 And then write something on it.
Tomas Franzese 34:49 I haven't read that since it published though, so I gotta I gotta revisit that, but I remember doing enjoying that.
Max Roberts 34:54 The closing paragraph uh talking about Nintendo Switch Sports was just around the corner and also the I think the Wii U e shop and stuff was getting ready to close.
Max Roberts 35:04 So it was kind of like a double
Tomas Franzese 35:06 Yeah.
Max Roberts 35:06 timely thing was like this is going away, but it's its future, its sequel is getting ready to come out, which is about to get another sequel too.
Tomas Franzese 35:12 Yeah, that's probably how I got it through.
Max Roberts 35:15 So
Tomas Franzese 35:16 Yeah, I'm guessing that's how I got it written, where I was like, this is technically timely.
Max Roberts 35:18 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 35:20 I don't think that did like amazing views-wise or anything, but
Tomas Franzese 35:23 I remember like being happy to be able to do that one.
Max Roberts 35:26 That's the angle though, right?
Max Roberts 35:29 Because for those who don't remember Wii Sports Club, it it was essentially a remaster of Wii Sports, but you could pay
Tomas Franzese 35:34 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 35:36 Yes.
Max Roberts 35:38 to play a game online with friends, but it was like I guess your article your headline tells me two bucks a day.
Tomas Franzese 35:44 Yeah.
Max Roberts 35:44 So like you could go play boxing or tennis or baseball or whatever.
Tomas Franzese 35:49 It's like how I spent uh 60 bucks on color splash for our when we did that that podcast years ago.
Max Roberts 35:53 That's right.
Max Roberts 35:55 And we did oh my gosh, I bought that used at GameStop and I think it was like forty five.
Tomas Franzese 35:58 I bought that.
Max Roberts 36:01 And then you were also on, I remembered our Pokemon X, because you're a big old Pokemon X guy.
Max Roberts 36:06 Did you like uh ZA because it went back to Lumio's
Tomas Franzese 36:06 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 36:07 Like a
Tomas Franzese 36:10 So uh actually I am not the biggest fan uh I like the Lumeo stuff.
Tomas Franzese 36:15 I actually just was not the biggest fan of the
Tomas Franzese 36:18 the like the real-time gameplay because I essentially noticed that if you like Z-Locked and just walk strafed in a circle around every enemy, you would never get hit.
Tomas Franzese 36:29 So like I basically every fight just became like, okay, well Pokemon's super effective.
Max Roberts 36:29 Thanks, game freak
Tomas Franzese 36:34 Okay, time to circle strafe.
Tomas Franzese 36:36 And then
Max Roberts 36:36 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 36:36 So I wasn't but it was it was cool.
Tomas Franzese 36:38 I de I really like uh Lumios and Kalos as a region though.
Max Roberts 36:41 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 36:42 So like it it was cool that they like tap back into that.
Max Roberts 36:44 They just completely skipped over Yenova.
Max Roberts 36:47 They're like, yeah, you want black and white remakes?
Max Roberts 36:50 Nah, psych.
Max Roberts 36:51 Here we go.
Tomas Franzese 36:52 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 36:53 Yeah, no, uh it's articles like that.
Max Roberts 36:55 But it's articles like that, and I know that was at Digital Trends, but it's it's that perspective, I think, on
Tomas Franzese 37:01 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 37:02 Cause I well I actually also had a uh save state at Digital Trends because that's actually where that's kind of like the
Max Roberts 37:06 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 37:08 the what remastered as a spiritual successor to is like the last year I was at digital trends they were kind of like, Oh, we want to have like more like
Tomas Franzese 37:17 c column-based content that like makes you more of a personality is something we can sell.
Tomas Franzese 37:22 Um and so I I tossed around a couple ideas.
Tomas Franzese 37:25 I think I wanted to do something more game design focused and then I was like oh writing about game designs really hard.
Tomas Franzese 37:31 and like very dependent on what comes out.
Tomas Franzese 37:33 Uh so that didn't really come come through.
Max Roberts 37:33 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 37:35 And then uh finally I think around like the middle of twenty twenty four I like kind of the idea like I was
Tomas Franzese 37:41 I kind of was like, oh, what about like a retro focused newsletter?
Tomas Franzese 37:44 And then was able immediately able to write like a bunch of like pitch ideas for that.
Tomas Franzese 37:49 Um
Tomas Franzese 37:50 And then yeah, and then we launched it in August.
Tomas Franzese 37:52 I wrote like that was bi-weekly.
Tomas Franzese 37:54 Uh and then it went through basically until uh like literally one of the
Tomas Franzese 38:02 I think uh the last save state came out.
Tomas Franzese 38:04 And it was actually like a pretty wonderful coda on it.
Tomas Franzese 38:08 Um it's the one like this rare SNES game was lost to time and now it's getting a second life.
Tomas Franzese 38:13 And then I think the final like bit at this of it is like at this point I've spoken to almost every company responsible for the current wave of retro remasters for this column.
Tomas Franzese 38:23 There's a connective hope between everything kind of the company's like
Tomas Franzese 38:26 Ziggurat, Limited Run, Digital Clips, etc.
Tomas Franzese 38:29 are doing through projects like Rendering Ranger, R2 Rewind.
Tomas Franzese 38:33 They aren't just capitalizing on nostalgia but reminding the game industry to respect its past.
Tomas Franzese 38:38 it's future in each other which is like actually a wonderful coda for like the entire newsletter and then that ended up being the the final one um
Max Roberts 38:43 Yep.
Max Roberts 38:45 The final one
Tomas Franzese 38:46 And then I think I actually, yeah, and then at the time I had had like a Civ the Sims anniversary thing, and then that ended up getting picked up by GameSpot.
Tomas Franzese 38:54 Uh so that's like technically the last save state.
Tomas Franzese 38:57 But then when I was when I was then like, oh I want a unique angle for my newsletter, I'm like, well, you know, um it worked for for save state.
Max Roberts 39:04 Here's all these ideas.
Tomas Franzese 39:06 Here's legally distinct save state.
Tomas Franzese 39:08 Uh
Tomas Franzese 39:09 And uh so so I went with uh and then I came up with the name remastered and I was like, oh that's a that's a good name that's somehow not claimed by like a publication.
Tomas Franzese 39:17 Uh so
Max Roberts 39:17 That's it really.
Tomas Franzese 39:19 Yeah, 'cause actually uh yeah, it's I was I was shocked.
Max Roberts 39:21 I thought that I just was like, oh, this is take it everywhere, but Tobas is just owning it.
Max Roberts 39:26 No way.
Tomas Franzese 39:26 No, it's I I looked and I maybe there's like something, but there is nothing
Tomas Franzese 39:30 Like when I looked it up that it was like very obviously like just remastered.
Max Roberts 39:35 Dude, great, great get.
Tomas Franzese 39:35 Maybe you could disprove that, but yeah.
Max Roberts 39:37 Oh, that's crazy
Tomas Franzese 39:38 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 39:39 Oh yeah, it's so weird.
Tomas Franzese 39:40 Like I even remember save state.
Tomas Franzese 39:41 I got like a bunch of compliments of like, oh yeah, how did no one have save state ready for your like like taken?
Max Roberts 39:46 Uh well I remember um our friend Logan Moore, he's over at Comic Book
Tomas Franzese 39:48 Yeah
Max Roberts 39:52 They had a show there for a little while, podcast called Quick Save that I was on a couple of times.
Max Roberts 39:56 So I'm like, that's a good name.
Max Roberts 39:59 Um and then do you remember um drop-in drop out at Dual Shockers?
Max Roberts 40:04 Were you ever on that one?
Tomas Franzese 40:05 Yes, I think I was I was m on the shock cast more when we had that, but uh
Tomas Franzese 40:10 It's just an hilarious name.
Tomas Franzese 40:12 Um, but but yeah, no, I remembered very briefly, drop and drop out was the thing.
Max Roberts 40:17 Well th that so obviously that showed uh went on to die.
Tomas Franzese 40:17 Yeah.
Max Roberts 40:20 But now there is apparently an another
Max Roberts 40:23 gaming podcast called Drop In Drop Out that is quite successful, at least comparatively.
Max Roberts 40:27 I don't uh Mike brings it up every now and then, uh, which I find very funny that they had the same, you know, they have the same name that we used to have.
Tomas Franzese 40:33 Oh yeah, even I think like uh Destined for My GN started a channel named like Save State Plus
Max Roberts 40:33 It's it's so funny.
Max Roberts 40:39 Yeah,
Tomas Franzese 40:39 Where I think it was.
Tomas Franzese 40:40 And it's funny too, because like it happened shortly after Save State was a thing.
Tomas Franzese 40:44 And I'm like, I wonder if I beat him to the punch and like made him add the plus.
Tomas Franzese 40:48 to his name.
Tomas Franzese 40:49 Like I've never talked to him.
Tomas Franzese 40:50 So like I don't know if that's why he did it, but I'm wondering if he looked at like gaming save state and like oh there's a save state so I need to be safe state plus.
Max Roberts 40:57 Safe State Plus.
Max Roberts 40:58 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 40:59 Yeah.
Max Roberts 40:59 It's uh you should you should talk to Destin.
Max Roberts 41:03 That would be fun
Max Roberts 41:03 It would be fun to get to get him on the horn.
Tomas Franzese 41:04 Yeah
Max Roberts 41:06 Uh I've only talked to him a couple times back when I was at IGN.
Max Roberts 41:10 He helped uh we worked together on some hitman coverage.
Max Roberts 41:13 Back back the first Hitman or the the first seasonal when Hitman was seasonal, that one.
Tomas Franzese 41:13 Nice.
Tomas Franzese 41:19 Like the the first Tetman of the new trilogy.
Max Roberts 41:21 Yes, yes.
Tomas Franzese 41:22 Yeah, okay.
Max Roberts 41:22 Back when it was episodic and all that stuff.
Tomas Franzese 41:23 Yeah, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 41:24 Yes.
Max Roberts 41:25 Oof.
Max Roberts 41:26 What a day.
Max Roberts 41:27 What a time.
Tomas Franzese 41:28 Yeah.
Max Roberts 41:28 Can you imagine?
Tomas Franzese 41:29 Excuse me.
Max Roberts 41:29 Anyway.
Tomas Franzese 41:30 Uh yeah.
Tomas Franzese 41:32 So hitman's episodic release is giving me uh heartburn.
Tomas Franzese 41:36 Uh yeah.
Tomas Franzese 41:37 Actually I do think that was ahead of its time.
Tomas Franzese 41:39 I think they just did it in a really like kinda weird way.
Tomas Franzese 41:42 Where I feel like if it was just like pay for it once and you get everything.
Max Roberts 41:47 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 41:47 Going forward, like I feel like, which is kind of what they ultimately Yeah, which is what they ultimately like settled on where it's like, yeah, you can buy like
Max Roberts 41:48 Little telltale formula type thing, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 41:55 Hitman three and then we're gonna update it over time.
Tomas Franzese 41:58 But I feel like it was like just before that live service boom happened, so they just didn't understand like what it was until like Hitman 3 and then it came out and was like, oh yeah.
Max Roberts 42:05 Yeah, until they add it.
Tomas Franzese 42:07 And then it just needed enough content too, where it's just like, then once you have the all three games, it's like, oh yeah, this is like the stealth game to to play.
Max Roberts 42:08 It'
Max Roberts 42:16 Yes, it is, with all of its modes and options and VR and all the things, all the rigmarole.
Max Roberts 42:24 I uh I'll say this before we move on to the Xbox, but the best thing about old video games
Max Roberts 42:32 As they were so short.
Max Roberts 42:34 I just beat the original Sly Cooper um the other weekend.
Tomas Franzese 42:38 Ah yeah.
Max Roberts 42:38 I beat that in like two days.
Max Roberts 42:40 It took me less than seven hours.
Tomas Franzese 42:41 Hot take best best Sly Cooper.
Tomas Franzese 42:43 Best lie Cooper.
Tomas Franzese 42:44 It's my hot take.
Tomas Franzese 42:45 It's the best one.
Tomas Franzese 42:46 Better than two and three.
Max Roberts 42:48 Really?
Max Roberts 42:49 Hmm.
Tomas Franzese 42:49 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 42:50 It's it's focused, but it's because it's so like it has some like weird stuff, if I remember, that like doesn't age well, but like it's just so focused.
Max Roberts 42:50 I
Tomas Franzese 42:57 Whereas like two and three like just expand the scope.
Tomas Franzese 43:00 Where I think like two two I would accept as like also being the best.
Tomas Franzese 43:04 But I think like three and four just like got a little too ambitious.
Max Roberts 43:07 Two's my favorite.
Max Roberts 43:09 Um I think Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 43:10 Yeah, which is like I understand that
Max Roberts 43:13 I just like I do like being able to play as Bentley and Murray.
Max Roberts 43:17 And but they kept it they kept it to them.
Tomas Franzese 43:18 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 43:18 But they kept it.
Max Roberts 43:20 They didn't expand the team.
Max Roberts 43:21 They didn't do like the oceans thing where like the team is growing, which was is what three would go on to do.
Tomas Franzese 43:24 Yeah.
Max Roberts 43:26 I think the
Max Roberts 43:29 I like this, but I think the weakest part of two is they double up on a couple of the villains where like you have two levels back to back with the same villain.
Max Roberts 43:37 I know they do it with Jean Bisson.
Tomas Franzese 43:38 Yeah.
Max Roberts 43:40 And um I think they do it with the spider Contessa lady, I think.
Max Roberts 43:45 So like out of the eight episodes
Max Roberts 43:48 four of them, like, you know, or two or two of two sets are back to back ones.
Tomas Franzese 43:52 Yeah.
Max Roberts 43:53 And so it's like, okay, it feels a little paddy, but um I I
Tomas Franzese 43:59 Yeah, for sure.
Tomas Franzese 44:00 You know, ironically to to tee up the next conversation, Slike 2 is the game that taught me about console exclusivity, because when I was a kid
Tomas Franzese 44:08 Um, I only had an uh well I had like the DS and Game Boys, but in terms of like uh home consoles, I only had an Xbox.
Tomas Franzese 44:16 And I remember being in like a Target or something in Slink Slide 2.
Tomas Franzese 44:20 And being like, this is amazing, I need this game.
Tomas Franzese 44:22 And that it just had to be explained like, no, you don't own what that's on.
Tomas Franzese 44:25 And I remember that taught me of like, oh, there's some games that are only on like
Tomas Franzese 44:30 PS2 or Nintendo And so it's like I will always and I remember it's like we finally got a PS3 years later and then I finally had enough like allowance and I went to the store and bought
Tomas Franzese 44:40 Sly trilogy for the PS3.
Tomas Franzese 44:42 And I think Luigi's Mansion, Dark Moon.
Max Roberts 44:42 I just rebought that.
Tomas Franzese 44:44 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 44:45 Like, and I bought those both.
Tomas Franzese 44:46 And those were some of like the first games I just like bought completely on my own.
Tomas Franzese 44:50 And I remember being like proud of that.
Max Roberts 44:52 I I remember so I was always a Nintendo kid growing up.
Max Roberts 44:56 My parents were very
Max Roberts 44:58 Like Nintendo, family friendly, all these things.
Max Roberts 45:01 And I honestly was super great because I I felt like I I had always the best games.
Max Roberts 45:05 But all of the kids on my street had PS2s.
Max Roberts 45:10 So I would play all the PlayStation stuff at other people's houses.
Max Roberts 45:13 So that's where I was introduced to Kingdom Hearts, Crash Bandicoot, Sly Cooper.
Max Roberts 45:17 I played the entire Sly trilogy at
Max Roberts 45:19 my friend Ryan's house down the street on the corner.
Max Roberts 45:22 Uh I just played those games at his house over the years as like they came out because he would he would get them all.
Tomas Franzese 45:27 Yeah, that was that was me with GameCube.
Max Roberts 45:28 Um
Tomas Franzese 45:29 I remember I have I have nostalgia for some GameCube stuff like uh because yeah I had like neighbors that had those systems.
Tomas Franzese 45:37 Yeah I was I was never really a PlayStation like I don't think I I think I had like one like what like uh there were twins.
Tomas Franzese 45:45 I had some friends that had a PlayStation, but I don't think I played that as much as like the Nintendo stuff with them.
Max Roberts 45:50 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 45:50 So
Max Roberts 45:51 And I I just remember like, oh, they can play these games because they have PlayStations.
Max Roberts 45:55 And so then eventually when I got my PS2, like those were the games that I went out and bought first.
Max Roberts 46:01 honestly probably at the golden age time to buy them because they were, you know, super cheap at GameStop.
Max Roberts 46:06 Like you could go in and get a game completed box for five, ten bucks now.
Tomas Franzese 46:10 Yeah, it's it's crazy with how yeah, just I mean everything's more expensive, but yeah, there were there was like a sweet spot in the 2010s there where I'm like, oh yeah, I should have just like bought up everything when it was like five bucks and no one really cared yet.
Max Roberts 46:18 Yeah.
Max Roberts 46:21 All the things we should have done, but we just didn't have the money for it.
Tomas Franzese 46:23 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 46:24 Also or put that money in Bitcoin.
Tomas Franzese 46:28 Yeah.
Max Roberts 46:29 Yes, we definitely should have done that.
Tomas Franzese 46:31 I remember like we were underage, so I don't think it even would have been legal, but I remember having a friend being like, oh yeah, I'm gonna buy like
Tomas Franzese 46:37 a thousand dollars of Bitcoin in like high school in like twenty thirteen and he never did.
Tomas Franzese 46:42 But then I just think back of like, oh if he had done that back then, like he would have been a multimillionaire.
Max Roberts 46:47 My my brother told my dad that he should buy Bitcoin at one point and then uh my dad didn't do it.
Tomas Franzese 46:52 Yeah, no, no, it's not worth it.
Max Roberts 46:54 Now no no
Tomas Franzese 46:54 I'm not I'm not chilling crypto or anything, but yeah, it's just funny to think about and
Max Roberts 46:58 Very funny to think about.
Max Roberts 47:00 But you know what's not funny to think about?
Max Roberts 47:03 The state of Xbox these days.
Max Roberts 47:06 Oh my goodness.
Tomas Franzese 47:07 Great transition.
Max Roberts 47:08 Uh so longtime readers of the site will know that I've had it uh I've had it out for Phil Spencer and the Xbox crew for quite a while, just from
Max Roberts 47:21 I think what I've noticed a lot over Phil's tenure at Xbox as the C like the lead of the company.
Max Roberts 47:28 So specifically like Xbox One to today.
Max Roberts 47:31 is a lot of like talking out of both sides of your mouth, like, oh, this is what we are going to do, but then not do things like uh I remember specifically like bringing
Max Roberts 47:42 the Xbox app to iPhone, it's like, well, there's no m money to monetize for us, but uh on iOS was a quote.
Max Roberts 47:48 He's like, we can't monetize it on iOS, which
Max Roberts 47:51 And part was true because they couldn't go through the apps, blah, blah, blah.
Max Roberts 47:54 Whatever.
Max Roberts 47:55 But then they'd also say, well, gamers should be able to play on any screen or phone or whatever that they want.
Max Roberts 48:00 And all sorts of quotes and comments and things from Phil over the years.
Max Roberts 48:05 And so this year, when it was like Phil's leaving, um, and here's our new CEO and all these things.
Max Roberts 48:12 And this year's been very big for Microsoft from that CEO switch back in February all the way up to E3, where they were like
Max Roberts 48:22 We're going back to the console exclusive with Gears of War E-Day.
Max Roberts 48:26 But don't worry about uh Halo or Fable, uh, because we already promised so we can't get out of that.
Tomas Franzese 48:32 Or the gears we put on PS5 last year, so we could put E Day on PS5 this year.
Max Roberts 48:35 Yeah.
Max Roberts 48:38 Yep.
Max Roberts 48:38 No, don't worry about that.
Tomas Franzese 48:39 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 48:39 Don't worry about that.
Max Roberts 48:40 Which I feel like that Gears of War remaster is gonna be very expensive now on PlayStation.
Tomas Franzese 48:40 Yeah.
Max Roberts 48:44 I probably should buy a copy.
Max Roberts 48:45 uh just for the oddity of it.
Max Roberts 48:47 Same with Halo.
Max Roberts 48:49 Um but then after E three and all this goodwill earned, uh, they kinda go and burn it all to the ground by completely restructuring the company, laying off
Tomas Franzese 49:00 To be clear, not not even like a couple weeks.
Tomas Franzese 49:02 It was literally like the Monday we all got back from E3, I think, the report.
Tomas Franzese 49:06 came out that was like, oh yeah, now they're shutting down four studios, including the one that they revealed a game for yesterday.
Tomas Franzese 49:13 And it was like, what?
Max Roberts 49:13 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 49:14 Yeah.
Max Roberts 49:15 It's insane.
Max Roberts 49:16 So, yes, they are um
Tomas Franzese 49:17 Yeah.
Max Roberts 49:19 Not shuddering, they're like letting studios go, selling some studios.
Max Roberts 49:24 I think is it thirty four hundred job layoffs in Microsoft
Tomas Franzese 49:28 Yeah, it's uh it's thirty two hundred jobs.
Tomas Franzese 49:32 Um around sixteen hundred happened on July first.
Max Roberts 49:36 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 49:37 Uh the other 1600 are just looming over and no one knows who they are, but at some point over the next 12 months they will let go of another 1600 people and one of those two numbers includes the studios they're divesting.
Tomas Franzese 49:50 Um
Tomas Franzese 49:51 But I mean it's still like just one of the biggest at once like mass layoffs we've seen.
Tomas Franzese 49:56 It impacts like some amazing studios.
Tomas Franzese 49:59 They gutted it.
Tomas Franzese 50:00 They like got rid of Double Fine and uh
Tomas Franzese 50:03 And compulsion, and I'm glad those studios were able to save themselves.
Tomas Franzese 50:08 Um, but and for the developers there, but like it's still obviously like
Tomas Franzese 50:12 st stupid for Microsoft to buy them and then let go of them uh like later.
Max Roberts 50:16 Yeah, so like a bit of context, I guess, for to k maybe catch up people who aren't really familiar.
Tomas Franzese 50:17 So yeah.
Max Roberts 50:26 During the 2010s
Max Roberts 50:29 When Phil took over Xbox and the Xbox one was not doing so hot, Phil Spencer
Max Roberts 50:38 kind of had this vision.
Max Roberts 50:40 I think Jason Schreier's video on like how I got so bad at Xbox kind of does a really good overall explainer.
Max Roberts 50:45 I'm gonna truncate his truncated explanation.
Tomas Franzese 50:46 Yeah.
Max Roberts 50:48 But he's like, we need studios and a catalog, and then had this vision for kind of a subscription service.
Max Roberts 50:55 And so they started buying up.
Max Roberts 50:57 Tons of studios forming their own studios.
Max Roberts 51:00 I remember being so excited that they were making the initiative and being like, oh my gosh, they're gonna build their own naughty dog.
Max Roberts 51:07 This will be great.
Max Roberts 51:08 R.
Max Roberts 51:09 I.
Max Roberts 51:09 P.
Max Roberts 51:09 the initiative never shipped a game.
Max Roberts 51:11 Um just m untold millions of dollars essentially down the drain.
Max Roberts 51:18 I don't know what could have been salvaged.
Max Roberts 51:20 And then they they bought Bethesda.
Max Roberts 51:22 So, you know, all those the sky rims, the star fields, all of that, and then Activision, King and Blizzard, like we mentioned before, what's the last time we talked about.
Max Roberts 51:31 But they bought Arcane, Double Fine, Ninja Fury, Compulsion, Playground
Max Roberts 51:37 Uh Undead Labs, uh gosh.
Max Roberts 51:42 Uh I forget.
Max Roberts 51:44 Tons of studios.
Tomas Franzese 51:44 Uh in Exile, Obsidian.
Max Roberts 51:46 In Exile, Obsidian, and some up.
Tomas Franzese 51:47 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 51:47 And then all the ones with Bethesda, yeah.
Max Roberts 51:50 And then all the Bethesda stuff, thank you.
Max Roberts 51:53 Then Game Pass doesn't really pan out the way Phil had hoped.
Max Roberts 51:58 Now to have a subscription service you have to have a catalog.
Tomas Franzese 52:00 To be clear, it it still had 30 million people subscribe to it, which is a lot of people, but they wanted a hundred million or seventy million are the statistics that were like thrown around.
Max Roberts 52:12 Right.
Tomas Franzese 52:13 So yeah.
Max Roberts 52:16 When you throw in lawyer fees and stuff, they spent over seventy billion dollars acquiring Activision.
Tomas Franzese 52:21 Yeah, as yeah, no, I think Bloomberg, I think Cecilia reported like it's basically a hundred billion.
Max Roberts 52:21 I I feel Sure.
Tomas Franzese 52:27 when you total like cause they were spending like a billion a year on Game Pass third party content.
Tomas Franzese 52:31 They spent like 69 to 70 on Activision.
Tomas Franzese 52:35 They spent like eight or nine on
Tomas Franzese 52:38 Xenemax.
Tomas Franzese 52:39 So when you add it all up.
Tomas Franzese 52:40 It's basically they had spent like a hundred billion dollars at a time like when Microsoft could have used that money to buy open AI.
Tomas Franzese 52:46 And they probably would have like the CEO and CFO would have rather done that.
Tomas Franzese 52:51 So it's like that kind of I think put the target on Phil Spencer's back.
Max Roberts 52:51 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 52:55 Cause like he like yeah.
Max Roberts 53:00 And you're not getting the numbers needed to justify that.
Max Roberts 53:03 30 million sounds incredible to me.
Max Roberts 53:08 Sounds great to me.
Max Roberts 53:09 But when you need a hundred million to make those kinds of purchases make sense, it's like, well, oh, now we are now we're in context here.
Max Roberts 53:17 And so Phil has decided uh to retire.
Max Roberts 53:22 Honestly, probably was kind of told like uh you can retire or you can be fired, and he left, you know, kind of golden.
Tomas Franzese 53:29 Yeah, as I
Tomas Franzese 53:30 He did an interview about a month before, I remember, where uh or maybe it was a little bit before it was after one of the Xbox shows, and I remember him saying, because it was at the time
Tomas Franzese 53:39 that like Shu from PlayStation was making the rounds on a lot of podcasts and they were asking him if he'd do that after he retired.
Tomas Franzese 53:46 And then he's like, oh no, I'm not gonna be doing like the podcast rounds after I'm
Tomas Franzese 53:50 done at Xbox and then like a month later he was gone and I'm like it's like oh so he knew that like Xbox is going to implode once I leave and it's gonna like be pinned on my failure
Max Roberts 54:01 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 54:01 as a leader.
Tomas Franzese 54:02 And yeah, so when if I'd be curious when whoever does get to speak to him eventually, because like someone will.
Max Roberts 54:08 I w I would hope someday, God willing, I I can't imagine what the NDAs are like leaving Microsoft
Tomas Franzese 54:09 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 54:11 Yeah.
Max Roberts 54:15 in this type of situation.
Max Roberts 54:16 But like I would hope Phil could write a book about this.
Max Roberts 54:18 Cause I know you will know the answer to this.
Tomas Franzese 54:18 Okay.
Max Roberts 54:20 I cannot think of his name.
Max Roberts 54:22 Who was the CEO of Xbox during the Red Ring?
Tomas Franzese 54:26 Uh oh I Peter Moore and Don Matrick are the two I think that predated.
Max Roberts 54:29 Yes, he Peter Moore he just wrote a book not terribly long ago.
Tomas Franzese 54:33 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 54:34 Yes.
Max Roberts 54:35 Um so I kind of hope like Phil could do that someday and really
Max Roberts 54:40 Hindsight's 2020, right?
Max Roberts 54:42 But we were not in those meetings.
Max Roberts 54:43 And he Phil Phil is a gamer, I know that, and he has a passion for it.
Max Roberts 54:48 But he he just bet on the wrong horse.
Tomas Franzese 54:51 Yeah, it's it's or it's a thing where it's like, I think
Tomas Franzese 54:55 I it's not our job to do Xbox's job for them, but ultimately I think it was just like Phil Phil bought the studios he liked and
Tomas Franzese 55:03 Phil liked RPGs, Phil liked shooters.
Tomas Franzese 55:06 And so I think if you are looking from that more corporate angle where it is like, does it make sense to buy obsidian?
Tomas Franzese 55:13 and Bethesda and in Exile doesn't make sense to buy the people who make Doom and like have Halo at the same and Call of Duty and Halo.
Tomas Franzese 55:23 Like whereas
Tomas Franzese 55:24 in in terms of just like a more holistic subscription.
Tomas Franzese 55:27 But I think ultimately even just like and what wulda coulda shoulda but yeah, I think it was just he he just w like you said kinda
Tomas Franzese 55:34 talked out of both sides of the mouth.
Tomas Franzese 55:36 There were always lofty promises like Xbox for a long time.
Tomas Franzese 55:39 And I was even culpable of like buying into this.
Tomas Franzese 55:41 It was very much like
Tomas Franzese 55:42 Oh wow, our 2020 is gonna be amazing.
Tomas Franzese 55:45 This is the best lineup of like I it became a meme where it's like the best lineup ever, like that they set it like three threes in a row.
Max Roberts 55:49 Mm-hmm.
Tomas Franzese 55:51 Um, where it was just like and then you would just have these years like 2022 where they like Pentiment's great, but they shipped like As Dusk Falls and Pentiment, and that was it for that year.
Tomas Franzese 56:01 when they had spent all these monies on studios.
Tomas Franzese 56:02 So like you can't ex expect like a Game Pass thing to grow when you're making all of these investments.
Tomas Franzese 56:08 I mean, even for as much money as they spent on um
Tomas Franzese 56:12 Activision Blizzard, they kept those games multi-platform and it was really only like one more game a year, and yes, it was the biggest game, but or the third biggest game, I guess.
Tomas Franzese 56:22 Um
Tomas Franzese 56:23 But yeah, ultimately I just think with their strategy, like they basically just proved the doubters right and that like yeah with as much money they were spending like his strategy was not really going to work and I think he held on for a long time and I think
Tomas Franzese 56:36 Like developers who worked at Xbox have said that like, oh, we trusted Phil.
Tomas Franzese 56:41 Like we there was a lot of uncertainty in those years, but uh like
Tomas Franzese 56:45 w we trusted Phil and then I think just finally it gave out where it was just like, oh yeah, just business wise, like they just like messed up one too many times.
Tomas Franzese 56:54 Like I think
Tomas Franzese 56:55 If I this is just me like conjecturing, but like Black Ops 7, I think, underperformed last year.
Tomas Franzese 57:01 And then I think it was just like, okay, you can't you can't buy
Tomas Franzese 57:04 Activision for that much money and then have like the first Call of Duty flop in a long time, uh or ever.
Tomas Franzese 57:11 And then like keep your job.
Tomas Franzese 57:13 So I think they were just like, Okay, let's change things and let's ruin everything we built 'cause we don't like this anymore.
Max Roberts 57:17 Right.
Max Roberts 57:19 And you have to think like the just overlap that naturally happens when you balloon your payroll and employee count.
Max Roberts 57:28 with all these acquisitions.
Max Roberts 57:29 And then you you've got managers and producers on like three different levels across three different companies.
Max Roberts 57:35 And this like there's too much redundancy here.
Max Roberts 57:39 And it's horrible that these people end up losing their jobs, especially after years.
Max Roberts 57:43 It's truly horrible for the other twelve hundred or sixteen hundred or whatever that number was.
Max Roberts 57:48 Um
Max Roberts 57:49 of people who don't know if they're going to lose their job right now.
Max Roberts 57:54 And then that doesn't, I don't think, count doesn't count the Xenomax
Tomas Franzese 57:54 Yeah, I don't know.
Max Roberts 57:58 um firings as well.
Max Roberts 58:00 Um I think because they kind of semi-operate separately.
Max Roberts 58:04 It's so strange and hard and
Max Roberts 58:10 I don't they have to basically rebuild the brand, and that's what Asha is doing, and she's she's
Max Roberts 58:17 She's gonna take a lot of heat.
Max Roberts 58:19 She is taking a lot of heat.
Max Roberts 58:20 She's making hard decisions and she can make them because she wasn't a part of like she can come in and kind of be the a calculated um executive.
Tomas Franzese 58:27 Yeah, I I believe it's called it's called like a glass cliff when you like promote someone like that to like take the brunt of everything.
Tomas Franzese 58:34 I mean I guess it's I I know you're not like
Tomas Franzese 58:38 being forgiving, but like I don't like a lot of people go like oh poor Asha had to do this and it's like it's not that it's Microsoft like
Max Roberts 58:43 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 58:48 Where they eat and then now is like, oh crap, our plate has on it.
Tomas Franzese 58:53 Like let's let's let's let's throw this plate out and like build a new plate.
Tomas Franzese 58:57 And it's like
Max Roberts 58:57 You're right.
Tomas Franzese 58:58 And it's like it's like no no no you you had you had the good plate and you on it.
Tomas Franzese 59:02 Like this is all on you.
Max Roberts 59:02 Yeah.
Max Roberts 59:03 Well, I think, and so I this is from that video Jason uh did as well.
Max Roberts 59:08 And kind of so the other part of this, like you mentioned, Phil's by in the studios he likes, right?
Max Roberts 59:13 His vision is Game Pass, which just needs a catalog.
Max Roberts 59:16 It doesn't necessarily matter on sales.
Max Roberts 59:18 It matters on subscribers.
Max Roberts 59:20 Um
Max Roberts 59:21 And so, according to Jason Trier, if I'm remembering this correctly, essentially Phil's attitude was like, don't worry about sales or shipping necessarily like
Max Roberts 59:32 super super quick or hitting these like annual kind of markers.
Max Roberts 59:36 Like just make what you want.
Max Roberts 59:38 And for a studio like Doublefind, that makes sense.
Max Roberts 59:41 Like you want DoubleFind to do doublefine.
Tomas Franzese 59:41 Yeah.
Max Roberts 59:43 You don't necessarily want
Max Roberts 59:46 uh all of your studios doing that per se.
Max Roberts 59:49 You kind of want a more rigorous schedule.
Max Roberts 59:51 But then when you have that be the instructions for the next X amount of years and a game takes that long to make
Max Roberts 59:58 And then the attitude at corporate shifts, and it's like, well, where's our Fallout New Vegas 2?
Max Roberts 01:00:05 And where's our Skyrim number two?
Max Roberts 01:00:07 And where's our so on and so forth and so on?
Tomas Franzese 01:00:10 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:00:11 You're then everyone's in trouble.
Tomas Franzese 01:00:13 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 01:00:13 Oh yeah, for sure.
Tomas Franzese 01:00:14 It was definitely like a
Tomas Franzese 01:00:16 Like I'll just say it, like I am astounded Matt Booty still has his job and he's the only one who remained because he's it's it's been his job to manage those studios since like 2018.
Max Roberts 01:00:20 Thank you.
Max Roberts 01:00:22 Thank you.
Tomas Franzese 01:00:27 And the thing Xbox has done the worst over that time is manage its studios.
Tomas Franzese 01:00:32 Um and I think it was great that they gave a lot of freedom
Tomas Franzese 01:00:35 But I think there was also like a way to give a lot of freedom and do it in a way where you didn't have like years without games or like ship s like I remember there was like August 2020, they shipped a bunch of stuff and then they had nothing the first year of Xbox Series X.
Tomas Franzese 01:00:48 And it's like or and then like 2022 they had nothing.
Tomas Franzese 01:00:51 Then they had like a bunch of stuff all of 2023.
Tomas Franzese 01:00:54 Last fall they launched like Keeper the Outer Worlds and uh
Tomas Franzese 01:00:59 one other thing and the Rog Ally all within like a month of each other.
Tomas Franzese 01:01:03 So like obviously something like Keeper just doesn't have the Fantastic Game doesn't have the space to do well.
Tomas Franzese 01:01:09 Um, because like it's the marketing and just everything is going to the other games.
Tomas Franzese 01:01:13 Um and then just and then just ultimately where it's also uh
Tomas Franzese 01:01:17 Like, yeah, those studios were told they didn't need to be profitable and then were punished for being like not profitable.
Tomas Franzese 01:01:23 And they were then also being punished for the failure of Call of Duty, which like as of now wasn't hit.
Tomas Franzese 01:01:29 particularly hard by like the layoffs as as we know of.
Tomas Franzese 01:01:33 So like and I know that's from stuff I've read, like a sentiment at a lot of the studios that were impacted was kind of like, oh Call of Duty flopped.
Tomas Franzese 01:01:40 So now like
Tomas Franzese 01:01:40 We're losing jobs.
Tomas Franzese 01:01:42 Like id software is letting go of its engineering team because Call of Duty wasn't good and the past three dooms have been the best shooters of their respective years.
Max Roberts 01:01:50 Better certainly better than Halo, anything three four three's put out um in quite a while.
Tomas Franzese 01:01:51 Like it's
Tomas Franzese 01:01:53 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:01:56 It's
Tomas Franzese 01:01:56 And and yeah, and I think I think there was a way to to like save these jobs and like cynical IP brain like
Tomas Franzese 01:02:05 Just be like, hey Compulsion, can you make a single player Sea of Thieves game?
Tomas Franzese 01:02:08 Hey Doublefine, I'm sorry, but we need you on Psychonauts and Banjo
Tomas Franzese 01:02:13 Hey, uh, like, uh, what uh Arcane, we need you to be back on Dishonored.
Tomas Franzese 01:02:17 Like, there's a way to keep these studios around and not lay off developers and refocus on your biggest franchises.
Max Roberts 01:02:24 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:02:24 Like, even if you're being a little more cynical and controlling and being like, hey, we need to hit these dates.
Max Roberts 01:02:27 I mean
Tomas Franzese 01:02:29 And so it's just to me, it's like I can't justify the layoffs in my mind because of that, because it's like you still could have done this like pivot towards the big IP strategies.
Tomas Franzese 01:02:36 and then like oh hey uh ninja theory what if you made like melee call of duty or something you know what i mean like there there's there's ways you can they could have
Max Roberts 01:02:43 Mm-hmm.
Tomas Franzese 01:02:45 kept jobs and I think they especially with how much money they're paying executives at the company and uh the how how little the companies they let go compared to some other stuff like has an impact on Microsoft's bottom line like double fine
Tomas Franzese 01:02:59 is like wasn't the biggest studio.
Tomas Franzese 01:03:01 It's like it's one thing if double fine was like 500 developers making kiln, but it's like it wasn't that.
Tomas Franzese 01:03:07 So you're like you could keep a double fine, but they're just like when you have an executive that doesn't understand
Tomas Franzese 01:03:13 like gaming and a company that doesn't really care about like quality of like uh life for the devs making the games.
Max Roberts 01:03:22 Yeah, and it's hard
Max Roberts 01:03:24 I mean Kiln technically a live service game in a way, like an online multiplayer game.
Max Roberts 01:03:31 Like that's gotta be
Max Roberts 01:03:33 hard for double find pit.
Max Roberts 01:03:34 It seems super creative, but it's like, uh, what's the life expectancy of this compared to their other, you know, other titles?
Max Roberts 01:03:41 I don't know.
Tomas Franzese 01:03:42 Yeah, that one that one also kinda got left out to die, I think, because it was right during the
Tomas Franzese 01:03:46 transition period.
Tomas Franzese 01:03:47 So like they they did not market that for launch at all.
Tomas Franzese 01:03:49 Where it's like I I mean I don't think kiln was gonna be like Roblox three or anything.
Tomas Franzese 01:03:54 But um
Tomas Franzese 01:03:55 But it was like I think that could have done better had they like given it the push of like, hey, here's our live service game this year.
Tomas Franzese 01:04:02 Uh and but they just kind of like
Tomas Franzese 01:04:04 put it out and we're just like, oh darn, this didn't do well.
Tomas Franzese 01:04:07 Maybe we should get rid of you guys.
Tomas Franzese 01:04:09 And it's like, no, you told us to make kiln and then didn't market it and just tossed it into Game Pass.
Tomas Franzese 01:04:14 Like, so yeah.
Max Roberts 01:04:15 Oh, and and and by the way, since it didn't sell super well, we're gonna let you go now.
Max Roberts 01:04:19 You're just out on the wild again, double fine.
Tomas Franzese 01:04:20 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:04:22 Oh yeah, no, it's even yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:04:23 No, I mean I even think about that because like
Tomas Franzese 01:04:26 I mean, to be frank, when I left XDA, we we had actually grown month over month, like my first month right writing there.
Tomas Franzese 01:04:34 Um
Tomas Franzese 01:04:35 And like there were there were some site issues in December that kind of made them more stagnant, but those weren't weren't even gaming section specific.
Tomas Franzese 01:04:42 Uh
Tomas Franzese 01:04:43 Uh but then like they basically even though like that section was doing good work and I could actively see how the quality was getting better, they let us go just because it like XDA like the the more like software-focused sections
Tomas Franzese 01:04:56 are like obviously what people went to that site for and they were just like, oh we would even though the gaming content is getting better, it's like we would rather just like give that money to software.
Tomas Franzese 01:05:09 s section so like they can make more software content that does better.
Tomas Franzese 01:05:12 And so that's kind of the brain that um I think Xbox is looking at it where they're like, okay, we could give Double Find these money this money or we could like
Tomas Franzese 01:05:21 add that like rounding error into Call of Duty's budget and like maybe it'll do better or make us more money if we can like use that money on licensing like a singer to have a skin in the game or something.
Tomas Franzese 01:05:35 Uh
Max Roberts 01:05:36 You're you're not wrong.
Tomas Franzese 01:05:37 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:05:38 You're d yeah, I mean the singer skin is gonna do a lot better in Call of Duty than it is in Kiln, just gonna say.
Max Roberts 01:05:44 Uh there was this quote uh from Phil Spencer back in twenty twenty three.
Max Roberts 01:05:51 This is during the Redfall aftermath.
Max Roberts 01:05:55 of the reviews there and they we're kind of we're still in the thick of the Activision deal.
Max Roberts 01:06:00 He was on kinda funny.
Max Roberts 01:06:02 Um it's a longish quote, but I'm gonna read it anyway.
Max Roberts 01:06:06 Which is this is Phil Spencer saying we have a different vision.
Max Roberts 01:06:11 Play the games you want with the people you want anywhere you want.
Max Roberts 01:06:15 We want Xbox to be something that people who buy our console can feel like they are a member of.
Max Roberts 01:06:20 Obviously, who are playing on PC, who are playing on cloud, that they feel like full members of our ecosystem.
Max Roberts 01:06:26 Game Pass players can play on many different devices and we remain fully committed to that.
Max Roberts 01:06:30 We're not in the business of out-consoling Sony or out-consoling Nintendo.
Max Roberts 01:06:34 There really isn't a great win solution for us.
Max Roberts 01:06:38 And yet, a few minutes later, Phil said this, which is quote, the console is the core of the Xbox brand, end quote.
Tomas Franzese 01:06:47 Yeah, contradictory statements
Max Roberts 01:06:48 And that is it's it's a f a lie
Tomas Franzese 01:06:51 Even even yeah, no, even it's like I pointed this out in like an article I wrote about Fallout, where it was like where it's still very confusing over what's um going to be exclusive going forward.
Max Roberts 01:07:03 Oh my gosh
Tomas Franzese 01:07:04 And and over the weekend, like Games Radar published a feature where they like spoke to Xbox executives on it.
Tomas Franzese 01:07:10 And in it, like I think uh I forget his name, but like they're
Tomas Franzese 01:07:14 Matthew Ball uh had said something along the lines of like, Oh, we're gonna make that strategy very clear to everyone soon.
Tomas Franzese 01:07:22 And then they announced like four Fallout games, and then Todd Howard was like, Oh, we can't tell you if they're exclusive or not.
Tomas Franzese 01:07:28 It's like like how easy of a uh quote unquote win, like among all the other stuff, but like if they had come out and said like all those Xbox uh all these new Fallout games will be Xbox exclusive.
Tomas Franzese 01:07:40 And it's like, but that tells me Xbox doesn't know if its exclusive strategy is going to still be the same by the time any of those arrive, which tells me it's like kinda like uh
Max Roberts 01:07:40 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:07:52 Not necessarily lying, but just like it's just confidently saying things it doesn't fully know and it's contradicting itself.
Tomas Franzese 01:07:58 It's like telling players one thing but doing another, or telling players two things at the same time of like
Tomas Franzese 01:08:03 Oh, like we'll be clearer to you about exclusivity, but it's too early to talk about exclusivity.
Max Roberts 01:08:08 Hmm.
Tomas Franzese 01:08:08 And it's like those aren't really compatible.
Max Roberts 01:08:11 This has been like an issue with Xbox.
Max Roberts 01:08:14 And and the game
Max Roberts 01:08:16 I think kind of outside of Nintendo, you know it's a Nintendo exclusive.
Max Roberts 01:08:20 But b uh we mentioned this before we started recording, but To Rise of the Tomb Raider back in E3
Max Roberts 01:08:26 Oh, 2014.
Max Roberts 01:08:28 I forget.
Max Roberts 01:08:29 I I mentioned to you earlier.
Max Roberts 01:08:30 Anyway, it was an Xbox exclusive at the time, and it was set exclusively on Xbox during the conference.
Tomas Franzese 01:08:31 Yeah, that's just walking.
Max Roberts 01:08:36 And then all these waves of questions came out.
Max Roberts 01:08:38 And later on, it would just
Max Roberts 01:08:40 be proven to be a one-year console exclusive.
Max Roberts 01:08:44 Um but the messaging has always just been what is an exclusive, what is not.
Max Roberts 01:08:49 And you you think about this E3 where Asha opened up their um
Max Roberts 01:08:53 their video with like, we're proud to announce E Day is uh Xbox console exclusive.
Max Roberts 01:09:01 Still coming to PC.
Max Roberts 01:09:02 But then the next two games they showed, which I think were Fable and
Tomas Franzese 01:09:08 Senoi.
Max Roberts 01:09:09 S was was Senewa the second second or third game?
Tomas Franzese 01:09:12 Yeah yeah, it was the second or third game because no, that was the he appeared at the game business like event they did.
Tomas Franzese 01:09:18 And he asked like he like Matthew Ball said like a similar thing about exclusivity where it's like, oh, we'll be clearer.
Tomas Franzese 01:09:25 And then like uh Chris Dring was like, oh, so what about Cinema?
Tomas Franzese 01:09:28 And he was like, no comment.
Tomas Franzese 01:09:29 Because he knew they were getting rid of Ninja Theory.
Max Roberts 01:09:31 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:09:31 And so they announced it for everything because they knew they wanted to have an a gate like a studio that wasn't locked to making an Xbox.
Max Roberts 01:09:34 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:09:38 exclusive, but that's the thing.
Tomas Franzese 01:09:39 It's like you can't simultaneously say like, oh, we need to be to be clearer about exclusives at a time when you like are not being transparent about why a game's not exclusive.
Max Roberts 01:09:50 And then la uh two years ago, almost now, a year and a half ago, the infamous This Is an Xbox campaign began, where Xbox meant nothing.
Max Roberts 01:10:01 Every screen was an Xbox.
Max Roberts 01:10:03 You didn't need to buy an Xbox.
Max Roberts 01:10:04 You could buy a handheld or a PC or your Android phone or what have you.
Max Roberts 01:10:08 And I think that really just kind of killed
Max Roberts 01:10:11 the whole console thing.
Max Roberts 01:10:12 And when you pair that with reports at the time of Microsoft buying or signing deals for fewer components because it wasn't selling as well, and then you you extrapolate that out to our current
Max Roberts 01:10:23 RAM and storage crisis.
Max Roberts 01:10:24 That's just why you now have eight hundred, nine hundred dollar Xbox series consoles.
Max Roberts 01:10:29 And um t to be f
Max Roberts 01:10:31 quite fair.
Max Roberts 01:10:32 All consoles are in this space.
Max Roberts 01:10:34 All electronics are in this space.
Max Roberts 01:10:35 But at least like the PS5 Pro actually Yes, which is
Tomas Franzese 01:10:36 But it's but at the same time now now Mike Microsoft's pivoting back to hardware when it's so expensive, which is also the confusing thing about their current strategy.
Tomas Franzese 01:10:44 It's like I think they almost
Tomas Franzese 01:10:46 Even though that was also very flawed, the like publisher out they were going, like maybe would have been better for like the future of console gaming hardware.
Tomas Franzese 01:10:54 But like now they're pivoting back to to consoles and it's like, okay, well that succeed because you're not gonna sell like a hundred million like Xbox five or whatever whatever the next console is.
Max Roberts 01:11:05 Project Helix, yeah, it's especially when both it and the PS6 will likely cost a thousand dollars.
Max Roberts 01:11:11 And as someone who paid eight hundred and fifty something dollars for a VS5 Pro, like I
Max Roberts 01:11:17 I can't get a PS6.
Max Roberts 01:11:18 I can't do it.
Max Roberts 01:11:19 Like I'm gonna have to ride out this.
Tomas Franzese 01:11:19 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:11:20 Oh no, it was I was I almost bought a steam machine and then I was just like it's not worth it at that price with like the
Max Roberts 01:11:26 Yeah, with the hardware inside.
Tomas Franzese 01:11:26 the older but good gaming PC I already have.
Tomas Franzese 01:11:29 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:11:29 Where it's like, I'll probably still buy whatever PlayStation X and Xbox do, just 'cause it's kinda like core to the work.
Tomas Franzese 01:11:35 that I do, but it's like if I was casual, I wouldn't be like, oh yeah, I need to go out and buy a new like PS6 because they're still releasing games for PS4 that I can play.
Max Roberts 01:11:47 Yeah, it's
Tomas Franzese 01:11:47 So yeah.
Max Roberts 01:11:49 I think the cross generation really is now kind of the standard and like I will be able to play, you know, quote unquote PS6 games on my PS5 Pro.
Max Roberts 01:11:57 Like I'll just play the that version of it.
Max Roberts 01:12:00 And I'm gonna have to be fine with that.
Max Roberts 01:12:01 I'm usually like a
Max Roberts 01:12:03 a pixel and quality snob, but like I can't I can't afford to be that in the coming generation whenever that begins, uh here in the next year or two.
Max Roberts 01:12:11 So
Max Roberts 01:12:12 It's very interesting.
Max Roberts 01:12:14 Xbox really, I think, in the end, kind of probably should have turned into a Sega a lot sooner.
Max Roberts 01:12:22 where they're just a publisher and developers of things and they gave up on the hardware side of things.
Max Roberts 01:12:27 Um I think that's what's in the cards for them ultimately.
Max Roberts 01:12:32 But they have at least one more console theoretically in 'em.
Max Roberts 01:12:36 And we'll we'll have to see what it is.
Tomas Franzese 01:12:38 I will say I do think they release a new console.
Tomas Franzese 01:12:41 Like I do think it is I think this is ultimately the I don't like making that bold predictions like I did on the uh
Tomas Franzese 01:12:48 the blizzard new thing, but my my one bold prediction is basically like I do think Xbox will do whatever this like Alsha Sharma Sharma pivot is, where it's like we're gonna release a new console with exclusives.
Tomas Franzese 01:13:01 Uh
Tomas Franzese 01:13:02 I don't know beyond that.
Tomas Franzese 01:13:04 I think the success or failure of that pivot will determine what happens next.
Tomas Franzese 01:13:09 But like uh
Tomas Franzese 01:13:10 I do I do think genuinely that like what they're doing now is just like, is there any way we could like salvage or make this into a sellable subsidiary?
Tomas Franzese 01:13:19 And so they're just like kind of doing the once again doing a Hail Mary, which they're like oh for one on right now with the Game Pass strategy.
Tomas Franzese 01:13:28 Um so it's like
Tomas Franzese 01:13:30 And that's the other thing too, where it's like, like, Microsoft already showed us that their long-term strategy didn't work, so why are we supposed to believe?
Max Roberts 01:13:30 I think it's a good th
Tomas Franzese 01:13:38 Hey, this new long-term strategy is going to work.
Tomas Franzese 01:13:41 Because like you haven't you haven't proven you can do that yet.
Tomas Franzese 01:13:43 So like ultimately, yeah, that's the thing where it's like, I don't need to give new Xbox like the benefit of the doubt until they earn it and they're
Tomas Franzese 01:13:52 a mega corp, so they're probably not gonna earn it.
Tomas Franzese 01:13:54 You know what I mean?
Max Roberts 01:13:54 Probably not.
Tomas Franzese 01:13:55 So that's that's that's the situation.
Max Roberts 01:13:57 My
Max Roberts 01:13:59 My kind of take is like look at Nintendo.
Max Roberts 01:14:03 Um, they have always been rock solid in exclusivity.
Max Roberts 01:14:07 Like they they do not waver.
Max Roberts 01:14:09 At the most is the mobile games, and
Tomas Franzese 01:14:11 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:14:12 They tried various ex
Tomas Franzese 01:14:12 Or the they expand, they don't spread.
Tomas Franzese 01:14:16 Or they're like, we're we're gonna expand into mobile games.
Tomas Franzese 01:14:18 We're not gonna release Mario Wonder on mobile
Max Roberts 01:14:21 Exactly.
Max Roberts 01:14:22 And you never You never wonder.
Max Roberts 01:14:26 I could go up to any average consumer in a Best Buy or Walmart or whatever.
Max Roberts 01:14:31 And be like, what do you need to buy to play the Mario game?
Max Roberts 01:14:36 Uh, the Nintendo.
Max Roberts 01:14:37 You buy the Nintendo, you buy the Switch, you buy the whatever.
Max Roberts 01:14:40 No one ever questions where the Mario's, the Pokemons, the Zeldas, so on and so forth are gonna be on.
Max Roberts 01:14:47 But now it's like, well, Halo's coming out on PlayStation here in a week.
Max Roberts 01:14:51 It's like, but then the next Halo won't be on PlayStation, so you gotta go back to maybe your Xbox or your PC.
Max Roberts 01:14:59 And I think really they just need to boldly assert
Max Roberts 01:15:04 That their games are console exclusive now.
Max Roberts 01:15:07 Like if it if we own it, it's ours.
Max Roberts 01:15:09 You want the Sky or Elder Scrolls VI?
Max Roberts 01:15:12 Buy an Xbox.
Max Roberts 01:15:15 Now that is negating a massive install base on PS five and uh PS six.
Tomas Franzese 01:15:22 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:15:22 I wouldn't be surprised if if that's where they're heading.
Max Roberts 01:15:25 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:15:26 I wouldn't be surprised.
Tomas Franzese 01:15:27 I do think uh like
Tomas Franzese 01:15:29 I guess another bold prediction.
Tomas Franzese 01:15:30 I think next gen will be the split.
Tomas Franzese 01:15:32 Like, I think this generation, they probably just already made too many deals of like
Max Roberts 01:15:36 Sure.
Tomas Franzese 01:15:37 over the past couple years of like, oh yeah, these games will be on PS5.
Tomas Franzese 01:15:40 Like I'm sure they hate that they confirmed they that they confirmed Fable for PS5 when they did in January, because if they hadn't done that, they could have kept it exclusive.
Max Roberts 01:15:45 Mm-hmm.
Tomas Franzese 01:15:49 Um
Tomas Franzese 01:15:50 But yeah, and so and same with like Forza uh Horizon 6 where it's a yeah I and so I just think they kind of had these contracts that were too much and I I think with the next gen console like
Tomas Franzese 01:16:00 I could definitely see them being like, okay, we're gonna unless it's like Call of Duty or Elder Scrolls Online or one of those, like, this is like obviously a multi-platform thing, like
Tomas Franzese 01:16:10 It's going to be on Xbox.
Tomas Franzese 01:16:11 Uh, that's like a potential approach.
Tomas Franzese 01:16:13 But like by then we could also be back to like, hey, actually we need to be on everything again because the hardware situation's gotten worse.
Tomas Franzese 01:16:20 Like, so yeah.
Max Roberts 01:16:20 Exactly.
Max Roberts 01:16:21 I don't see why they can't just say flat out, all of these are exclusives, and then there's no consequence.
Max Roberts 01:16:27 really later if they renege on that, right?
Max Roberts 01:16:31 They just go back and like, nope, never mind.
Max Roberts 01:16:34 The console business didn't work out.
Max Roberts 01:16:35 We are multi-platform from you know, now we're a de dev dev and publisher.
Max Roberts 01:16:38 Like we're done making hardware.
Max Roberts 01:16:40 So long Helix, uh, here's your games on PlayStation, like they're doing right now.
Max Roberts 01:16:44 Like exclusives are powerful and the IP that they do own, now you don't make Call of Duty exclusive
Max Roberts 01:16:54 Just f you you don't do that one.
Max Roberts 01:16:56 But you can.
Tomas Franzese 01:16:57 I mean they legally can't, they like agreed for a decade.
Max Roberts 01:16:59 But if you but if you say Fallout 5, Fallout New Vegas 2, those are exclusive to Xbox.
Tomas Franzese 01:17:00 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:17:08 I I think you sell Xboxes.
Tomas Franzese 01:17:10 Yeah, and that but they just announced both and they didn't say that.
Max Roberts 01:17:13 Say exactly.
Tomas Franzese 01:17:14 So it's like why why why didn't you say that?
Tomas Franzese 01:17:16 Like it's so
Max Roberts 01:17:16 I they should have.
Max Roberts 01:17:18 There's no there's no consequence.
Tomas Franzese 01:17:20 Like what's your strategy?
Max Roberts 01:17:20 Whatever.
Max Roberts 01:17:20 It's
Tomas Franzese 01:17:21 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:17:22 It's it's Xbox continuing to be Xbox and talk out of both sides of their mouth.
Max Roberts 01:17:27 Um it's fascinating.
Max Roberts 01:17:28 It's horrible for all the people who are losing their jobs.
Max Roberts 01:17:31 I am I am at least happy that
Max Roberts 01:17:34 Double fine really I'm happy Double Find survived.
Max Roberts 01:17:37 And this is actually what I want to leave the Xbox thing off on because you wrote and remastered um
Max Roberts 01:17:44 What was the I want to pull up the headline?
Max Roberts 01:17:46 After the Xbox layoffs, this documentary is required viewing, and you talk about uh Doublefind's documentary series Psych Odyssey, which is um
Max Roberts 01:17:56 Free on YouTube, or you can buy a physical copy over on Fangamer.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:00 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:01 Yep, I own one.
Max Roberts 01:18:01 Blue.
Max Roberts 01:18:03 Uh so I have never watched Psychodysy.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:03 It's so good.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:04 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:04 So I
Max Roberts 01:18:06 I've known about it, but your newsletter has got me.
Max Roberts 01:18:08 I'm on episode four now.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:09 Oh yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:11 You you have not seen anything yet.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:13 It it's your you're in you're in the good days right now.
Max Roberts 01:18:16 I mean the yes, they're like feeling great.
Max Roberts 01:18:19 And so Psychodysy is Double Find's documentary of the entire development, as I understand it, of Psychonauts 2.
Max Roberts 01:18:27 Which was a long-anticipated sequel from the studio.
Max Roberts 01:18:31 They crowdfunded it on Fig.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:33 Remember Fig.
Max Roberts 01:18:34 I do, uh, because
Tomas Franzese 01:18:35 I missed I miss Fig.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:37 I like them.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:37 They were actually one of the better crowdfunders.
Max Roberts 01:18:39 And it was um outer w um outer wilds.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:43 Outer yeah, Outer Wilds, Psychonauts 2, Wasteland 3, I think.
Max Roberts 01:18:48 Yeah
Tomas Franzese 01:18:48 Like it was they they had some good
Tomas Franzese 01:18:50 Because that was and I think that was I forget exactly what their approach was, but I think they were more like kind of worker run, like the developers had a state.
Tomas Franzese 01:18:57 And you could invest in the studios.
Max Roberts 01:18:59 If you back enough, you get kickback, like you're investing in the company, essentially.
Max Roberts 01:19:04 And then they were a double fine was obviously bought by Microsoft during this time.
Max Roberts 01:19:07 So it's like this is a crazy ride, is what I've heard.
Tomas Franzese 01:19:10 Yeah, it's the th that's what I like that was the main episode I focused on in my newsletter where yeah, there's the you see them get acquired and there is an episode where you see Matt Booty go to the studio and be like, we just want you guys to do you like
Max Roberts 01:19:24 But also, you don't own your ideas anymore, and now they're ours.
Tomas Franzese 01:19:24 W and but Yes.
Tomas Franzese 01:19:28 Yeah, and like you can't do Amnesia Fortnite uh anymore and we'll own it, and that's why Kiln is an Xbox game.
Tomas Franzese 01:19:34 Uh yeah, and it's like and so it's you see and you can see like there's a lot in that where you see people being like, okay, I kind of do think this is like weird and not double fine, but like apparently we're trusted right now.
Tomas Franzese 01:19:46 And it's like
Tomas Franzese 01:19:47 I yeah, I don't know.
Tomas Franzese 01:19:48 I hope they're whatever I hope the documentary crew that's like employed there is doing something right now.
Tomas Franzese 01:19:54 Because if they do a documentary about this period
Tomas Franzese 01:19:57 It's gonna be fascinating.
Max Roberts 01:19:59 Yeah, I
Tomas Franzese 01:19:59 Like, uh, but but it's yeah, I would recommend Psychodysy, because it's not only a great document documentary about like that how they
Tomas Franzese 01:20:07 uh game industry changed between like 2014 and 2021.
Tomas Franzese 01:20:12 Um but it's just it it really humanizes game development and it makes it makes you much less like pro-corporate and a move with like
Tomas Franzese 01:20:19 That was the point I ultimately made with all these layoffs where it's like it well some people can have fun like playing like CEO and like, oh here's what I do.
Tomas Franzese 01:20:27 It's like watching like psychodyssey or like
Tomas Franzese 01:20:29 Oh, even now that they're all independent again, which is good, you now have like all of these people at Double Fine who went through all these struggles making a game we love, like that are now in a more uneasy situation because of like Microsoft's poor decision.
Max Roberts 01:20:43 Yeah, and it's so everyone go watch it.
Max Roberts 01:20:46 I'm I'm three episodes I gotta start episode four.
Max Roberts 01:20:49 It's incredible.
Max Roberts 01:20:50 I I think when I'm done with it, I will buy the box set.
Max Roberts 01:20:54 That was my I almost bought the box set after your newsletter.
Max Roberts 01:20:56 I was like, wait, it's free.
Max Roberts 01:20:58 Like, I'll watch it first.
Max Roberts 01:20:59 And then if I love, you know, I assumed I would love it, and I already can tell I will.
Max Roberts 01:21:03 Um
Max Roberts 01:21:05 It's remarkable and that they made this entire thing free is also remarkable because it shows that Doublefine actually cares about telling the story of
Max Roberts 01:21:14 creation and game development and you really couldn't ask for like a more fascinating time I think and a more fascinating game for them to like focus on.
Max Roberts 01:21:25 So
Tomas Franzese 01:21:25 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:21:26 Have they brought in that outside designer to run Psychonauts two yet?
Max Roberts 01:21:31 No.
Max Roberts 01:21:31 So I'm still in Rhombus of Ruin.
Tomas Franzese 01:21:32 Okay.
Tomas Franzese 01:21:34 Oh, okay, okay, yeah, yeah.
Max Roberts 01:21:35 So they're still working on the VR game, uh, but they just did an art jam for Psychonauts 2.
Tomas Franzese 01:21:38 Yeah, okay.
Max Roberts 01:21:40 So they brought in some older
Max Roberts 01:21:42 uh double find artists and people to like start coming up with the artistic vision for what Psychonauts 2 will be.
Tomas Franzese 01:21:44 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 01:21:49 Yeah
Max Roberts 01:21:49 So
Tomas Franzese 01:21:50 Yeah, once once they bring on that new uh development director, his whole arc is great.
Tomas Franzese 01:21:55 The uh there's like uh I forget I forget if he was in at this point, they hire like
Tomas Franzese 01:22:00 one kind of novice game designer and he's designing a world and it follows him for a lot of episodes.
Tomas Franzese 01:22:05 Um and then yeah, and then there's uh
Tomas Franzese 01:22:08 Yeah, a couple episodes that'll make you cry.
Tomas Franzese 01:22:10 There's like a really great confrontation about Crunch.
Tomas Franzese 01:22:13 Um that's also in the Xbox episode.
Tomas Franzese 01:22:15 Like that is the episode to watch if you're gonna watch one.
Max Roberts 01:22:17 I think it's called that episode is called The Villains Villains of Crunch Load YouTube Load Uh Crunch Mode V Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:22:17 Um
Tomas Franzese 01:22:24 Yeah, villains of crunch mode, yeah, yeah.
Max Roberts 01:22:27 So
Max Roberts 01:22:29 Go watch this.
Max Roberts 01:22:31 Now, we'll use this as the segue.
Max Roberts 01:22:34 One of my other favorite gaming documentaries.
Max Roberts 01:22:37 Is grounded to for The Last of Us, which feels so small in comparison to Psychodysy, because it's only a couple of hours.
Max Roberts 01:22:46 But another fascinating period where obviously
Max Roberts 01:22:50 one of the biggest games PlayStation's ever done and then uh the leaks and COVID and all the things.
Max Roberts 01:22:57 It's a really great documentary.
Max Roberts 01:22:59 But right now Sony
Max Roberts 01:23:01 Sony's trying to act like Microsoft a little bit and they're they've made a very uh they've made a proclamation a very
Max Roberts 01:23:11 Very big one.
Max Roberts 01:23:12 Um just a couple of weeks ago announced that physical games will be done on PlayStation
Max Roberts 01:23:20 Starting in twenty twenty-eight, January of twenty twenty-eight, there will be no more physical PlayStation games, no more PS5 games.
Max Roberts 01:23:28 And no more P and then the PS6 won't have physical games at all.
Max Roberts 01:23:33 Um
Tomas Franzese 01:23:33 Yeah, they've said they'll still reprint ones that have already come out.
Tomas Franzese 01:23:38 I think is the one thing that's come out since then.
Max Roberts 01:23:38 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 01:23:40 Uh, but it's still bad.
Max Roberts 01:23:40 And and on the same day they they swung again at the PS3 and Vita stores saying they will officially close.
Tomas Franzese 01:23:42 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:23:49 You pointed this out in your article.
Tomas Franzese 01:23:50 Like that is truly what I cannot believe is that they were like like I I get where they were like, oh let's put out these bad PR hits at the same time.
Max Roberts 01:23:57 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:23:57 So it's like we don't have two different hits, but it's like you literally proved why you shouldn't be doing the first thing with your second thing.
Max Roberts 01:24:05 Yep.
Tomas Franzese 01:24:05 Like it's how how like stupid are you that you like put those out together?
Max Roberts 01:24:09 It is
Tomas Franzese 01:24:11 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:24:11 insane quite because they so they tried to shut down the PS3 and Vita stores but they did it with a much shorter heads up.
Max Roberts 01:24:18 It was only a couple of months.
Max Roberts 01:24:20 And and then they they went back on that due to the feedback.
Max Roberts 01:24:23 But obviously those the days for those stores were numbered.
Tomas Franzese 01:24:24 Yes.
Max Roberts 01:24:27 But partially I get it.
Max Roberts 01:24:28 They're talking about credit card and just payment processing.
Max Roberts 01:24:32 And quite honestly
Tomas Franzese 01:24:32 Yeah, I I reported on this back in the day and yeah, it's like it's literally with like how the security of some of those older stores where it's like they actually could there's like uh safety concerns of like, oh someone could hack the
Tomas Franzese 01:24:45 PS3 store and still everyone's like credit card info.
Max Roberts 01:24:49 It also is a backway into PSN itself, security vulnerabilities.
Tomas Franzese 01:24:49 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:24:53 Sony has dealt with hacks on various scales, uh most infamously Insomniac.
Max Roberts 01:24:59 of you know, we know what they're up to for the next decade.
Max Roberts 01:25:03 Uh but
Tomas Franzese 01:25:05 Wrong studio, it's Sucker Punch made infamous Magic Yeah I yeah that's Dora I s
Max Roberts 01:25:11 Oh my gosh.
Max Roberts 01:25:12 Did I say infamous?
Max Roberts 01:25:13 Did I say oh
Tomas Franzese 01:25:14 No, you said inf you said infamously Insomniac.
Tomas Franzese 01:25:17 Uh yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:25:17 I still one edit I still remember from my first year at Dual Shockers was uh I wrote that Insomniac was making the Spider-Man game when they announced it.
Tomas Franzese 01:25:27 And uh
Tomas Franzese 01:25:28 I think Ryan or whoever the editor was at the time changed it to Sucker Punch.
Tomas Franzese 01:25:33 And then I got the note from Giuseppe, who was in charge at the time, of like
Tomas Franzese 01:25:37 Why did you put sucker punch in this?
Tomas Franzese 01:25:38 It's wrong.
Tomas Franzese 01:25:39 And I was like, I wrote Insomniac and someone changed it to Sucker Punch.
Tomas Franzese 01:25:43 And like that was wrong.
Tomas Franzese 01:25:45 And then I got yelled at for it being such Sucker Punch.
Tomas Franzese 01:25:48 So I still remember that one.
Max Roberts 01:25:49 I remember writing an article about uh Death Stranding and how Norman Reedus' tattoos in real life were in the game.
Tomas Franzese 01:25:49 So
Tomas Franzese 01:25:50 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:25:56 'Cause I was watching The Walking Dead and you could see the little skull on his hand and I was like, Oh, that's in the game.
Max Roberts 01:26:01 I wrote that and um the editor in chief at the time was like, Oh, we don't need to publish that, like that that won't do well.
Max Roberts 01:26:08 And then later he took my article and published it.
Max Roberts 01:26:10 Like he wrote it and put his byline on it.
Max Roberts 01:26:12 I said, Whoa, dude, whoa, this is mine.
Tomas Franzese 01:26:14 Oh geez, yeah, I didn't.
Max Roberts 01:26:15 Please yeah, please don't do this.
Tomas Franzese 01:26:16 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:26:16 Uh I wrote that.
Max Roberts 01:26:18 I literally did it for you.
Max Roberts 01:26:20 Um and he's like, we'll share the byline.
Max Roberts 01:26:22 I'm like, you suck
Max Roberts 01:26:24 Whatever.
Tomas Franzese 01:26:24 Yeah, that's that sucks.
Max Roberts 01:26:25 Um yeah, it'sn't it was not fun.
Max Roberts 01:26:28 Anyway, the f the physical media going away
Max Roberts 01:26:34 And to be clear, right now there are rumors that Xbox is actually going to go back on their diskless future and maybe include a disk drive for the Xbox.
Max Roberts 01:26:42 So we'll see if that actually comes to pass, but I'll say that here for the record.
Max Roberts 01:26:46 But
Max Roberts 01:26:47 You take this news as someone A who is a huge physical collection over, I think around 500 games physically, many of them PlayStation.
Max Roberts 01:26:57 I've literally have been playing from
Max Roberts 01:26:59 The inception of Disc Base games to now their end, which also feels horrifyingly old.
Max Roberts 01:27:06 It's quite the move they claim.
Max Roberts 01:27:09 It's because digital sales are so up, and they are up, is this is true.
Max Roberts 01:27:13 I'm not ignorant of that, but they're also not being completely honest with the numbers in the sense that
Max Roberts 01:27:21 You know, there are older games being put back on stores so things sell for those things like Call of Duty Black Ops 2 just went up and killed.
Max Roberts 01:27:29 But there is no physical option for Call of Duty Black Ops 2.
Tomas Franzese 01:27:33 Yeah, I I think what I would add there is there's there is a thing where it's like
Tomas Franzese 01:27:38 Y physical games are selling much less.
Tomas Franzese 01:27:40 Like uh I don't know the exact numbers, but I didn't think like Matt Matt Piscatella from uh Circana put out a thing where it's like only like ten games have sold a hundred thousand uh physical copies on PS5 this year or something.
Tomas Franzese 01:27:53 And it's like that's not great, but I think what's lost and like this is what my uh post was about is like we're here because of how c what the actions companies like Sony and Microsoft
Tomas Franzese 01:28:04 took where like they've been pushing us to their online stores.
Tomas Franzese 01:28:07 They've been making the games online focused where it's easier to have it digitally.
Tomas Franzese 01:28:11 They've been de-emphasizing physical.
Tomas Franzese 01:28:13 Like the you know, there's fewer game stores now than there were a long time ago.
Tomas Franzese 01:28:18 So it's like
Tomas Franzese 01:28:19 They can say like, oh, the data shows that like people buy more digital now and that makes sense.
Tomas Franzese 01:28:25 But it is like we are here because of actions.
Tomas Franzese 01:28:27 all of these companies made over the the past decade to pivot to digital and not necessarily just that like oh it's it's not the consumer's fault this is happening I think was basically essentially my point where it's like I think the way placed station
Tomas Franzese 01:28:40 uh kind of spun it in their announcement was like oh do that like consumer habits were not doing physical anymore and it's like no no no due to like the habits you gave consumers you you don't want to do this anymore
Max Roberts 01:28:51 Yes, and they and obviously I mean they have a huge monetary reason to do it because they get
Max Roberts 01:28:57 either 30% from every game sale from a third party publisher, or they get a hundred percent of the revenue from their own games.
Max Roberts 01:29:05 So like
Max Roberts 01:29:06 they are going to make a lot more m they're gonna make more money than they're gonna make more money off of someone like me, who always would buy physical when given the option.
Max Roberts 01:29:17 than they ever were before and it's
Max Roberts 01:29:25 It's really tough because I've been saying for a long time, you know, people because people will ask, well, I wonder if this like the next one will be alt-digital or something.
Max Roberts 01:29:33 I'm like, well, to do it, they
Max Roberts 01:29:36 I never thought they would do it for the PS6 because that would require them to break backward compatibility with
Max Roberts 01:29:44 their consumer on some level.
Max Roberts 01:29:45 It's like the PS six, while probably can play PS4 games and surely will play PS5.
Max Roberts 01:29:52 it won't be able to play my library because my library of PS4 and PS5 games primarily is physical.
Max Roberts 01:29:59 And I was like, they won't do that the next gen.
Max Roberts 01:30:02 They they will take a generation to prepare.
Max Roberts 01:30:05 Like be like, hey
Max Roberts 01:30:06 that do this basically over a longer term than giving a year and a half notice.
Max Roberts 01:30:11 So that was kind of what was so shocking to me was like, wow, they are really
Max Roberts 01:30:16 Really it's it's the most now it's an I keep using this word.
Max Roberts 01:30:21 Now it's gonna be an infamous clip
Max Roberts 01:30:23 from E3, where Shuhei Yoshidahan's Adam Boy's uh kill zone shadowfall.
Max Roberts 01:30:28 It's like this is how you share games on PS4 because the slam dunk on the all-digital Xbox One and Don Matrick
Max Roberts 01:30:37 And they filmed this like in an afternoon and that video had so much applause.
Max Roberts 01:30:42 And now it's not even a thing.
Max Roberts 01:30:45 And you pair that with
Max Roberts 01:30:47 I think most famously this year, Colin Moriarty's PSN being hacked.
Max Roberts 01:30:52 But the idea or the realization that a lot of people are coming to now is you are not buying a game when you buy it digitally.
Max Roberts 01:30:59 You are buying a license.
Max Roberts 01:31:01 And you the games can be taken away at a moment's notice.
Max Roberts 01:31:05 I learned this lesson actually a really long time ago on iTunes.
Max Roberts 01:31:10 Um, I don't know if you were ever familiar with the show on Nickelodeon called Mr.
Max Roberts 01:31:14 Meedy.
Max Roberts 01:31:15 It was a puppet show.
Tomas Franzese 01:31:16 Yes, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:31:16 That freaked me out when I was a kid.
Max Roberts 01:31:18 Oh, I love Mr.
Tomas Franzese 01:31:18 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:31:19 Meedy.
Max Roberts 01:31:19 It's so funny.
Max Roberts 01:31:21 But Mr.
Tomas Franzese 01:31:21 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:31:21 Meady only had one season.
Max Roberts 01:31:23 It didn't do very well.
Tomas Franzese 01:31:23 Yes.
Max Roberts 01:31:24 It was it basically a puppet show about it it was about uh guys that worked in a mall, you know, burger joint.
Tomas Franzese 01:31:25 I wonder why it sc scared a child.
Tomas Franzese 01:31:29 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:31:33 And they got up to shenanigans.
Max Roberts 01:31:35 Well, I love that show, so I bought it when I got my iPod classic and I would watch episodes.
Max Roberts 01:31:40 Well, at some point, not terribly long after, the show was delisted from iTunes and you could not
Max Roberts 01:31:48 get it back.
Max Roberts 01:31:49 You cannot re download it.
Max Roberts 01:31:50 Now I actually still have the video files, but they're encrypted behind DRM.
Max Roberts 01:31:54 So I still can't watch the show that I paid for.
Max Roberts 01:31:57 But I was buying a license at the time and I learned v so I learned very early.
Max Roberts 01:32:01 Oh
Max Roberts 01:32:02 I don't own this.
Max Roberts 01:32:04 They can take it away.
Max Roberts 01:32:05 I think a famous video game example, besides more recently this year, something like Concorde, where there was physical games on store shelves, or High Guard, while no physical version, the game was up and gone.
Max Roberts 01:32:17 Um PT, playable teaser from Hideo Kojima and Silent Hill.
Max Roberts 01:32:22 That game gone.
Max Roberts 01:32:24 Nuked from the PSN, and you couldn't re-download it unless you did like a super hacky thing with your router.
Tomas Franzese 01:32:30 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:32:31 Well what's what's freakier too though is like just due to how digital stores worked at the time, like
Tomas Franzese 01:32:37 They could delist PT, but you could still play it.
Max Roberts 01:32:40 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:32:40 Nowadays with how a lot of games are, like there's a world where like something like PT, they delist it and you can no longer
Tomas Franzese 01:32:47 like boot up PT on your PlayStation where it's like and that that's like the Yeah, so that's like the the subtle difference.
Max Roberts 01:32:48 Right.
Max Roberts 01:32:50 Even though the file is sitting right there.
Tomas Franzese 01:32:55 Um yeah, so I it's just it's fascinating and I think it's
Tomas Franzese 01:32:59 And it's one of those things too where it's almost like the optics of it are more important than like the practicality of it to some people.
Tomas Franzese 01:33:06 They're almost like campaigns and multiplayer shooters and Call of Duty games where it's like people don't.
Tomas Franzese 01:33:12 uh like buy the games f to mostly play the campaign, but if a Call of Duty game does not have a campaign, it's like critique to hell for it and it makes the optics of it really bad.
Max Roberts 01:33:18 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:33:23 Because it's the thing people just kind of expect and want there.
Tomas Franzese 01:33:25 And I think that's a thing where it's like Sony was able to win the Optics war with the PS4.
Tomas Franzese 01:33:30 Because even though the Xbox One did ultimately like ship normally to support discs, like
Tomas Franzese 01:33:35 uh that little misstep allowed Sony to be like, oh yeah, we're the the physical game guys and I think ultimately like taking that away from the PS6
Tomas Franzese 01:33:44 Uh even if practic like in a world there it's like 10% of PSX owners were going to use the physical media.
Tomas Franzese 01:33:53 on it.
Tomas Franzese 01:33:54 Uh it's the it's the optics of like people feeling like they have the option.
Tomas Franzese 01:33:59 Because I mean like digital versions of the PS5 and Xbox already exist and have like sold millions of units.
Tomas Franzese 01:34:05 So it's not like
Max Roberts 01:34:06 They were there day one.
Tomas Franzese 01:34:07 This is even yeah, yeah, it's not like they're this is a new thing and like they've sold millions of those kinds of consoles, but it is just a thing.
Tomas Franzese 01:34:13 But people like to know that like, oh well if I wanted to, I could go to the store and buy this physically.
Tomas Franzese 01:34:18 Uh, but like when you only care about margins and profit, you don't care about like optics as much.
Tomas Franzese 01:34:24 So yeah.
Max Roberts 01:34:24 And I hadn't even considered this.
Max Roberts 01:34:27 But how many digital PS5s are sold?
Max Roberts 01:34:30 Because it was cheaper, which sure, whatever.
Max Roberts 01:34:32 Which then automatically
Max Roberts 01:34:35 alters digital sales because the only option you have at that point is digital.
Max Roberts 01:34:39 It's like, oh
Tomas Franzese 01:34:40 Yeah, the that's what I was alluding to with like the yeah, where it's like the industry put pushed people towards digitally because it it became that kind of thing or that thing where it's like, oh you you
Tomas Franzese 01:34:50 Put the disc in your console and then you still have to like connect online and update it to play.
Tomas Franzese 01:34:54 So you might as well just get it digitally and remove the like gas to drive to the store.
Tomas Franzese 01:35:00 The the uh yeah, you know so it's th things like that where it's like over time the industry just slowly like made digital way more convenient, which it like is in a lot of ways.
Tomas Franzese 01:35:09 But then now that they made people comfortable enough where they're like, oh, and by the way, you don't care about physical anymore.
Tomas Franzese 01:35:16 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:35:16 But it's just ultimately really bad optics for them that I think like even if it
Tomas Franzese 01:35:22 financially it doesn't end up impacting them that much, like optically it does.
Tomas Franzese 01:35:26 Uh I also think it it's a there's been like statements they've alluded to the fact that and there's been like some leaks and rumors where like
Tomas Franzese 01:35:34 it's quite possible the PSX is like a handheld or something.
Tomas Franzese 01:35:38 I know that's a rumor I see flying around.
Tomas Franzese 01:35:40 And so I am curious if it's a thing where the PSX
Tomas Franzese 01:35:43 physically wouldn't be able to really take discs like that.
Tomas Franzese 01:35:47 And so they just decided to use next gen as an opportunity to like rip the band-aid off because they already didn't want to do it.
Tomas Franzese 01:35:53 And they were like, instead of doing like a fancy workaround, like we know we're not making physical PS6 games, so let's just stop making all physical games.
Tomas Franzese 01:36:00 Like doesn't justify the decision, but like I feel like that's what finally would have made them like
Tomas Franzese 01:36:05 Okay, well we're just gonna make the PS6 a digital only console, so then we don't need to be doing this for PS5 anymore as well.
Tomas Franzese 01:36:12 Like I'd have to assume that that would feed into it in some way.
Max Roberts 01:36:15 I I would believe that.
Max Roberts 01:36:17 I have not seen reports that the PSX specifically is handheld.
Max Roberts 01:36:21 I have I do know Sony is working on a handheld.
Max Roberts 01:36:23 I've seen those reports just in general.
Max Roberts 01:36:25 Like they're making a handheld con a real handheld console, not the portal.
Max Roberts 01:36:29 Um which is great.
Max Roberts 01:36:31 They should have been they should have never stopped, really.
Max Roberts 01:36:34 um or at least giving it a beat after the Vita.
Max Roberts 01:36:36 But those types of things clearly are very prominent.
Tomas Franzese 01:36:38 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:36:40 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:36:40 Just look at the success of the Nintendo Switch.
Max Roberts 01:36:43 But then also the Steam are the the um
Max Roberts 01:36:47 I want to say Steam Machine, that's not the name of it.
Max Roberts 01:36:49 It's also not the index.
Max Roberts 01:36:50 That's the headset.
Tomas Franzese 01:36:51 Steam Deck.
Max Roberts 01:36:51 What Steam Deck, thank you.
Tomas Franzese 01:36:54 Yes.
Max Roberts 01:36:54 You know, those types of consoles, while I would argue are not handheld because they're so cumbersome.
Max Roberts 01:37:00 There's a market for portability in games.
Max Roberts 01:37:04 Um, but the idea even then
Max Roberts 01:37:09 I don't and again I'm so biased, right?
Max Roberts 01:37:12 I have a massive collection.
Max Roberts 01:37:13 There are there are DS carts on my desk right now because I'm doing Pokemon Jiu Jitsu moving things.
Max Roberts 01:37:20 But it's like even a handheld console can have physical things.
Max Roberts 01:37:23 And Nintendo most uh here on the Switch 2, rather, I'm not gonna say the word again, um, virtual keycards.
Max Roberts 01:37:32 Now
Tomas Franzese 01:37:33 Game game key cards.
Max Roberts 01:37:34 Game key cards, thank you.
Max Roberts 01:37:36 While I am personally not a fan of like the game not being on the cart, right, and there's different factors to why these exist.
Tomas Franzese 01:37:36 Yes.
Max Roberts 01:37:42 It's it's cheaper for Nintendo to manufacturer, they can have various sizes, whatever.
Max Roberts 01:37:46 It still gives the consumer some form of ownership and power, at least in owning the game, where you can lend the key card to a friend.
Max Roberts 01:37:58 They can pop it in their Switch and they can download the game and play it.
Max Roberts 01:38:01 You can sell the key card to someone or to a store.
Max Roberts 01:38:05 While I don't own the game, it's just a key to unlock the license.
Max Roberts 01:38:09 I at least like can pass it around.
Max Roberts 01:38:11 And then also Nintendo
Max Roberts 01:38:13 in their family system, like allow you to lend digital games to someone else within your family.
Max Roberts 01:38:18 I think there's like a 14-day timer on it or something.
Max Roberts 01:38:22 Maybe that could be laxed a little bit.
Max Roberts 01:38:24 But currently
Max Roberts 01:38:26 You can't share a digital game with anyone, even if if there is like a PlayStation Family route, which I don't believe there is at this time, I could be mistaken.
Tomas Franzese 01:38:34 I don't think so.
Max Roberts 01:38:35 Same thing on Xbox.
Max Roberts 01:38:37 You can't share your digital game in any way, shape, or form.
Max Roberts 01:38:40 So you're completely cutting off like a form of just affordability for families?
Max Roberts 01:38:50 Or the ability to share your games with people and just like your friends and have that kind of social natural marketing.
Tomas Franzese 01:38:59 It's ultimately with digital games, I think there's just like and they have no reason to sort these things out, which is why they haven't yet.
Tomas Franzese 01:39:06 But there's some things that need to like happen there where it needs to
Tomas Franzese 01:39:11 be like more easily easily shareable, kind of like what Nintendo did.
Tomas Franzese 01:39:15 Um or like even just at the very least and like
Tomas Franzese 01:39:19 Uh, you know, stop killing games and all of that exists and I understand that it's kind of impossible to tell a company that like, oh, you have to make your proprietary IP in tech like
Tomas Franzese 01:39:29 open source to keep the games alive, but like at the very least being a thing that like if this game's shutting down, we're refunding everybody and we're
Tomas Franzese 01:39:37 like making sure like well because like were you refunded for those Mr.
Tomas Franzese 01:39:41 Meaty episodes you lost or could you just like not access yeah exact so like the that's the thing with digital rights management that makes it fed up where it is like uh
Max Roberts 01:39:42 No, God, no.
Tomas Franzese 01:39:49 Like, well, you should give me the money if I paid for this license and the license is now useless.
Tomas Franzese 01:39:53 Like you should be paying me back.
Tomas Franzese 01:39:55 And I think that that kind of pun punishment almost for the the companies.
Tomas Franzese 01:39:59 Like I would I would be more comfortable with an all-digital feature if I could share my digital games and I could get a full refund if I were to lose access to the digital games due to something out of my control.
Tomas Franzese 01:40:11 Like but th those don't exist.
Tomas Franzese 01:40:13 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:40:13 Like you can't you can't go by I think Forza Horizon one through four now, I think.
Max Roberts 01:40:19 Um for because they're delisted because why?
Tomas Franzese 01:40:20 Yeah, yeah, they're all delisted.
Max Roberts 01:40:23 Licensing deals like with products or music in the games and they just don't want to renew them.
Max Roberts 01:40:27 So it's like, well, the only way to play those games now is either you bought them before they went away.
Max Roberts 01:40:31 and then can download them or you have the disc.
Max Roberts 01:40:36 Um the other another piece of this is the
Max Roberts 01:40:45 It's kind of twofold.
Max Roberts 01:40:46 There's pricing, where like physical games will go down in price generally faster.
Max Roberts 01:40:51 They also can go up in price as any you look at older games.
Max Roberts 01:40:57 that also can happen.
Max Roberts 01:40:59 Or like the limited run type of prints of games.
Max Roberts 01:41:02 But another thing that we can we know happens
Max Roberts 01:41:07 is they will remake a game or remaster a game, and then suddenly the old game will either go back up to its original MSRP
Max Roberts 01:41:18 or be completely taken off where you can't buy it at a cheaper price.
Max Roberts 01:41:21 So they did this with Horizon Zero Dawn where they remade it and that game went up.
Max Roberts 01:41:25 Nintendo did this with Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze.
Max Roberts 01:41:28 Like on the Wii U it went away when the Switch version came out
Max Roberts 01:41:31 Or went up in price one of the two.
Tomas Franzese 01:41:32 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:41:34 So they're driving you to suddenly pay for the more expensive one.
Max Roberts 01:41:37 And Horizon Zero Dawn specifically, I think was even
Max Roberts 01:41:42 It was either free or a part of like PS Plus or something, and it was like, nope, now you can't do these.
Tomas Franzese 01:41:47 Or y I mean you could you could get it for like ten bucks, like with the expansion.
Tomas Franzese 01:41:51 Like you could buy Horizon Complete Edition for
Max Roberts 01:41:54 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:41:54 like ten dollars and now I think you just can't anymore.
Max Roberts 01:41:56 Yeah, you couldn't do that.
Max Roberts 01:41:58 And the so the only way to get around that theoretically would go buy a physical copy of the game.
Max Roberts 01:42:02 But in an all digital future
Max Roberts 01:42:04 they completely control the pricing structure.
Max Roberts 01:42:06 And now one difference between games and Hollywood, and I'll say this at least just for Apple.
Max Roberts 01:42:12 I don't know how this would work on other
Max Roberts 01:42:14 digital movie purchasing storefronts, but when 4K was becoming a thing on on iTunes and eventually Apple TV
Max Roberts 01:42:22 Apple just said if there's a 4K version of the thing that you bought, you get the f you get it for free.
Max Roberts 01:42:29 That would never happen in a video game, even if it
Max Roberts 01:42:31 If we take remakes out, like full ground up remakes, which are obviously very dev intensive, resource financial intensive, just like the remaster.
Max Roberts 01:42:40 Oh, here's like its sharper graphics.
Max Roberts 01:42:43 You would never get that for free.
Max Roberts 01:42:45 Now, I suppose in part that's baked into some consoles.
Max Roberts 01:42:48 Like the PS5 can run PS4 games at better performances or whatever.
Max Roberts 01:42:53 But like an official
Max Roberts 01:42:55 Up res version, they would make you pay for that and definitely would.
Max Roberts 01:42:59 And it's like in an all-digital future, there's just no way
Max Roberts 01:43:03 You have to s succumb to their terms.
Max Roberts 01:43:05 Like you whatever the price is is what they say it is.
Max Roberts 01:43:08 Whatever version it is is the version they say it is.
Tomas Franzese 01:43:10 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:43:11 So then you're losing
Tomas Franzese 01:43:11 I mean and and also like another thing where it's like I think Xbox is rumored to have some like digitizing strategy to account for this.
Max Roberts 01:43:19 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:43:19 But then the other thing is like
Tomas Franzese 01:43:21 If you buy a p like all these physical PS5 games, like even if the digital versions are just backwards compatible with PS6, like
Tomas Franzese 01:43:30 If you own the PS5 games physically, it presumably like you're just not gonna be able to play them on PS6 because you own them physically, which like feels messed up because you paid for the physical version.
Tomas Franzese 01:43:43 So it's like, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:43:44 It's so it's and that's where where like the the rights digital rights management um or no that's DRM, that's a different thing.
Tomas Franzese 01:43:51 But uh
Tomas Franzese 01:43:53 Like that's that's where the the the rights of the consumer with like digital content like needs to improve because it's just like so just like
Tomas Franzese 01:44:03 platform friendly to the point where it's like actively worsens the experience for the the user.
Max Roberts 01:44:09 I know this doesn't mean anything on a spreadsheet, like, which clearly is a driving force behind this decision in this direction in general.
Max Roberts 01:44:20 But like I told my wife about it the day it happened, 'cause I was I truly w saw the news and it was like a gut punch.
Max Roberts 01:44:27 I was like, oh because I didn't think it was gonna happen this soon, right?
Max Roberts 01:44:30 I was I was kind of really distraught that day.
Max Roberts 01:44:32 It really threw my whole day off.
Max Roberts 01:44:34 But I told her that.
Max Roberts 01:44:35 She's she's a very casual gamer.
Max Roberts 01:44:37 She loves her Animal Crossings, her Stardust, Mario Karts.
Max Roberts 01:44:41 Like she plays games, but very casually.
Max Roberts 01:44:44 But she like, she looked at me and went, really?
Max Roberts 01:44:47 She could not believe it.
Tomas Franzese 01:44:47 Yeah, that's what I mean.
Tomas Franzese 01:44:48 It's it's an optics thing.
Tomas Franzese 01:44:51 It's the like you want to you wanna know you can walk into the store and get a the new Mario game or the new Halo or the new God of War.
Max Roberts 01:44:51 Yes.
Max Roberts 01:44:57 Mm-hmm.
Tomas Franzese 01:44:58 Where it's like and it's it's one of those things where you're you're actively hurting your own optics and reach.
Tomas Franzese 01:45:04 Where it's like even if physical media isn't necessarily selling, just like having PlayStation games in the store reminds people that PlayStation exists.
Tomas Franzese 01:45:12 And so in that way I think it's ultimately beneficial to the brand to be like, oh yeah, I walk in past the PlayStation games at Walmart.
Tomas Franzese 01:45:19 Oh, I should go buy that game I want on a PS5.
Tomas Franzese 01:45:22 Now they just won't see that.
Tomas Franzese 01:45:23 And they just like won't get a PS6 and they won't buy anything on a PS6.
Max Roberts 01:45:27 And I wonder so again
Tomas Franzese 01:45:29 And it's something you can't spreadsheet, which is why like the companies don't account for it, because it's not something you can quantify.
Max Roberts 01:45:34 Right.
Max Roberts 01:45:36 I think these were official statements, but like that th they would still be have their games in retail with their retail partners.
Max Roberts 01:45:44 Like you could still go buy
Max Roberts 01:45:46 uh ghost of Japan three, um, at a Best Buy or whatever someday.
Max Roberts 01:45:53 But
Max Roberts 01:45:54 So that the I think then the implication is, well, there will be a box in the store.
Max Roberts 01:45:58 It'll just have a code inside.
Tomas Franzese 01:46:00 Yeah, the GTA route, yeah.
Max Roberts 01:46:01 So y yeah, so you can keep that
Max Roberts 01:46:04 the optic part of it's in the store, but I just wonder, like I can't help but think, hey, I'm walking into the store or I'm online, I'm on Amazon trying to buy a PlayStation 6.
Max Roberts 01:46:16 It's a thousand bucks
Max Roberts 01:46:18 And then you see you're like, well, what games are there?
Max Roberts 01:46:20 And it's like you don't even get the game with it.
Max Roberts 01:46:22 I feel like that's I feel like that wouldn't go over well or would make it like, well, gosh, why would I go buy the Switch at
Max Roberts 01:46:31 Five hundred dollars or something.
Tomas Franzese 01:46:33 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:46:34 Or yeah, oh, I think I have a uh, you know, uh a 3DS buried.
Tomas Franzese 01:46:39 Like let me go online and see if I can get some old 3DS games I'm nostalgic for and buy those used instead instead of buying the the PS6.
Tomas Franzese 01:46:47 And like I could spend a thousand dollars on 3DS games instead of like uh new new games.
Max Roberts 01:46:51 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:46:53 And you don't even
Tomas Franzese 01:46:53 So yeah, it's just it's it's those subtle decisions that like you can't even track that just
Tomas Franzese 01:46:58 Like even if the PS6, like in whatever form it takes is a success, like it will it will change who's playing and how people interact with it for for that reason.
Max Roberts 01:47:07 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:47:08 I think the other angle, I'm curious what you think about this, is the boutique
Max Roberts 01:47:16 Shops, both local mom and pops.
Max Roberts 01:47:19 I'm fortunate to be around a lot of local video game stores.
Max Roberts 01:47:24 So the used market is quite strong here in Central Florida.
Max Roberts 01:47:27 It's also quite expensive, God help me.
Max Roberts 01:47:29 Um, but like this puts a clock on
Max Roberts 01:47:33 Now granted they have eight generations of consoles and games to like supply that, but they won't be able to sell
Max Roberts 01:47:41 you know, some used PS6 game.
Max Roberts 01:47:43 Like that just won't be a thing that they can do someday.
Max Roberts 01:47:46 Or future PS5 games.
Max Roberts 01:47:48 But then also companies like Limited Run, I'm8 Bit, Fangamer, who do these beautiful
Max Roberts 01:47:55 robust kind of you know complete editions of indie games or or long lost titles and put them out physically uh you know I've got many indie games behind me that
Max Roberts 01:48:05 I just I waited for a physical release for something.
Max Roberts 01:48:08 You know, uh Sea of Stars, uh Outer Wilds, that's how I played it physically.
Max Roberts 01:48:15 I have River City Girls 1 and 2, like all these funky and different games that never would get this.
Max Roberts 01:48:21 But now it's like these companies gotta be kind of wigging out a little bit, don't you think?
Tomas Franzese 01:48:27 Uh yes and no.
Tomas Franzese 01:48:29 I think I mean I think there's obviously gonna be some impact on the business because you're not selling new games anymore.
Tomas Franzese 01:48:35 um which obviously will impact them.
Tomas Franzese 01:48:38 Um for the stores, they like you said, they still do have so much like back catalog
Tomas Franzese 01:48:44 of games to sell that I think like for a while they'll be okay and maybe in like another 20 years that might be a thing where it's like oh we're running out of physical media to sell potentially.
Tomas Franzese 01:48:55 Um
Tomas Franzese 01:48:56 But I think that's like a a can that's kicked far enough down where it isn't really a short term issue.
Tomas Franzese 01:49:02 Um but then what I'd expect is like for those other companies
Tomas Franzese 01:49:06 It'll they'll exist, but it'll very much either be A, we're just doing collectibles now, or B, we know it comes with a code, but we're gonna make the physical version very
Tomas Franzese 01:49:17 fancy.
Tomas Franzese 01:49:18 So like maybe PlayStation or Xbox will partner with the limited run to say like hey we're gonna do a limited run version of Halo and if you get it you get this nice steel book and like Master Chiefs.
Tomas Franzese 01:49:29 helmet or something if you pay us like a hundred and fifty for it and I think I the so they'll basically become more like collectible companies and you'll because there are collectors editions that don't come with the game that already exists
Max Roberts 01:49:40 I remember Wolfenstein infamously, and I mean, all Sony games now.
Max Roberts 01:49:45 Sh surprising to me.
Max Roberts 01:49:47 Again, there's no Wolverine Collector's Edition whatsoever.
Max Roberts 01:49:50 But when they did Spider-Man, it was just a code in the box.
Tomas Franzese 01:49:53 Yeah, you want twelve inches of Logan?
Max Roberts 01:49:53 God of War code in the box.
Tomas Franzese 01:49:55 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:49:56 Yeah, all eighteen inches, yes.
Tomas Franzese 01:49:58 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:50:00 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:50:01 Yeah, yeah, no, so yeah, I yeah, ultimately I think it pivots more to like physical becomes even more like boutique, more collectible driven, more, and in turn unfortunately more expensive.
Tomas Franzese 01:50:10 Where it does like you already see Nintendo do this where like I remember like I was interested in buying the new Yoshi game.
Tomas Franzese 01:50:16 I almost bought it at a at a GameStop.
Tomas Franzese 01:50:19 And then I was like, this is cheaper at home and I went home and bought it uh digitally.
Tomas Franzese 01:50:24 So like but I mean at least I had the option there like
Tomas Franzese 01:50:28 But it is that thing where it's it's like that tricky situation though where it's because it's more expensive and if you make that more than ten dollars and it's like oh I could either like
Tomas Franzese 01:50:39 Buy this indie game for 20 bucks on the store, or I could spend like 60 bucks and get like a physical version
Tomas Franzese 01:50:47 that has a code and a plush like people might not buy the game physically or be able to experience it because they would have bought it physically but they can only get that very expensive version.
Max Roberts 01:50:56 So I think though, I think you kind of bring up a really good point though, the indie game.
Max Roberts 01:51:01 And all the physical versions.
Max Roberts 01:51:03 Indie games usually have their physical versions come out after they've already been out and and usually also are quite successful.
Max Roberts 01:51:09 Um
Max Roberts 01:51:10 So that option already exists.
Max Roberts 01:51:12 And like so if you do want it physically, odds are you're willing to pay more.
Max Roberts 01:51:18 But then Nintendo is kind of trailblazing a little bit or doing the thing that I think a lot of people thought STAR to be happening to begin with, which is the digital version is cheaper than the physical version, because those costs are
Tomas Franzese 01:51:18 Yes and the Nintendo
Tomas Franzese 01:51:30 I would say the the physical version is more expensive is how I would frame it, now that the digital's cheaper, because I I think yeah, yeah.
Max Roberts 01:51:35 Yes, no, you're absolutely right.
Max Roberts 01:51:37 That's the the correct way to phrase that is the physical version is more expensive.
Max Roberts 01:51:41 Why?
Max Roberts 01:51:41 Because there's more cost associated with it.
Max Roberts 01:51:43 And a
Max Roberts 01:51:44 I say this from a place of I have I'm an adult and I have disposable income.
Max Roberts 01:51:48 If I was a kid when this was going on, this would not be the case.
Max Roberts 01:51:52 But like I bought Mario Kart World physically.
Max Roberts 01:51:56 I paid the extra money.
Max Roberts 01:51:58 Of uh b both on top of the fact it was bundled with a switch too, like I could have just paid I could have saved thirty bucks, uh, but I paid for
Max Roberts 01:52:07 the physical version because I wanted it physically and I was okay with that and I made that choice.
Max Roberts 01:52:12 But if I wanted it cheaper, it was there.
Max Roberts 01:52:14 If I wanted, and I think what's interesting though is at least this summer.
Max Roberts 01:52:19 Retailers have been marking down Nintendo Switch 2 exclusives, $10 to match their digital ones, up until release.
Max Roberts 01:52:29 And that is competition in the market.
Max Roberts 01:52:31 And that's gotten people, I think, to buy a lot more games from Walmart, uh, because they kind of started this trend.
Max Roberts 01:52:37 But
Max Roberts 01:52:39 That's also interesting, I think, and like that whole dynamic and possibility goes away when it's digital.
Tomas Franzese 01:52:46 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:52:48 Yeah, no, for sure.
Tomas Franzese 01:52:49 Yeah, it it's it's fascinating.
Tomas Franzese 01:52:50 It's uh yeah, it's it's it's kinda hard to tell where it'll go, but yeah, it's it's definitely
Tomas Franzese 01:52:57 Like cool in some ways that they're they maybe will put more love into the physical versions because they're more expensive potentially.
Tomas Franzese 01:53:05 Or talking about the more like collectors editions type stuff.
Tomas Franzese 01:53:09 But yeah, it's like
Tomas Franzese 01:53:10 But that doesn't account for the the people like who either of with like like obviously like I also have disposable income to buy buy games.
Tomas Franzese 01:53:17 It's work, so I get a lot of games for free.
Tomas Franzese 01:53:20 But like the people who don't have the the money to spend
Tomas Franzese 01:53:23 Uh, and could get a physical used game cheap and can no longer do that.
Tomas Franzese 01:53:27 The people in an area of the world where they don't have a good physical con collection or the money.
Tomas Franzese 01:53:32 Um
Tomas Franzese 01:53:33 Or uh to or to like get stuff, like can't get it physically.
Tomas Franzese 01:53:37 Like there's there's just those scenarios that like kind of get get screwed when it's like, oh we have more expensive like
Tomas Franzese 01:53:44 code or codeless, uh like physical editions.
Max Roberts 01:53:48 Yeah, it's it's not fun
Tomas Franzese 01:53:53 Nope.
Tomas Franzese 01:53:54 Yeah, that's things are bad.
Tomas Franzese 01:53:56 No easy solutions.
Max Roberts 01:53:56 Things yeah, things are bad.
Max Roberts 01:53:59 God.
Max Roberts 01:54:00 Uh Mr.
Max Roberts 01:54:01 Mr.
Max Roberts 01:54:02 Reggie, come back to Nintendo and save us, please.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:04 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:05 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:05 We yeah, we need we need Reggie and Mr.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:07 Meedy to come back.
Max Roberts 01:54:09 Oh my gosh.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:09 Things will be better.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:10 Save us, Mr.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:11 Meedy.
Max Roberts 01:54:12 Bring back there you go, that's the answer.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:14 Yeah, yeah.
Max Roberts 01:54:14 A Nintendo TV series with the puppets from that super iconic 3D or E3, not 3D, it's E3.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:18 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:54:22 When Nintendo had nothing, they had puppets.
Max Roberts 01:54:25 Like that's the move they pulled.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:25 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:54:26 They're like
Tomas Franzese 01:54:27 Oh yeah, I'm I'm so nostalgic for the Wii U era because like the 3DS Wii U era is when I really got into Nintendo, and I know it's like their worst era, but there's like a lot of cool stuff they did.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:38 because they sucked in those like six years.
Max Roberts 01:54:40 Yes
Tomas Franzese 01:54:41 So it's kinda and you do see the building blocks where like you see where they got to like the what they learned.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:47 Like they basically had to like mess up so badly that they then like did switch so well.
Tomas Franzese 01:54:52 So it's one of those like it's just fascinating to look back on
Max Roberts 01:54:55 It's it really the Wii U in particular.
Max Roberts 01:54:58 So like the three DS started poorly because of the cost.
Max Roberts 01:55:02 Gosh, can you
Max Roberts 01:55:04 It was two hundred and fifty bucks and then the they dropped the price.
Tomas Franzese 01:55:06 You can get a 2DS with Mario Kart for 80 bucks.
Tomas Franzese 01:55:10 The price of Mario Kart World, you could get a system with a Mario Kart for just a couple years prior.
Max Roberts 01:55:16 It's insane.
Max Roberts 01:55:18 But yeah, the we the 3DS started so poorly and went on to be so strong and then the Wii U never never stood a chance because of the confusing marketing around it and then
Tomas Franzese 01:55:18 Yeah
Max Roberts 01:55:28 a lag of games, but what I am happy about is that most Wii U exclusives have made the jump to Switch 2 and there's only a few left on there that really are kind of locked.
Max Roberts 01:55:38 Devil's third, you know, real poor.
Tomas Franzese 01:55:38 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:55:42 But you know, actual things like uh can't which one?
Tomas Franzese 01:55:42 Yeah, I mean yeah, what's I actually think so.
Tomas Franzese 01:55:45 Affordable space machine is like the one that literally is just made for it.
Tomas Franzese 01:55:49 So you can't
Tomas Franzese 01:55:51 Uh affordable space machine, I think is the name of it.
Tomas Franzese 01:55:54 It's an indie game that like used the gamepad as you like managed a ship.
Tomas Franzese 01:55:59 basically and it's really cool but it it's it's like it's one of those games that's made so much for the hardware that like it's never gonna be on anything else and it was digital only so yeah
Max Roberts 01:55:59 Okay.
Max Roberts 01:56:04 Right.
Max Roberts 01:56:06 Well, I think of uh Kirby and the Rainbow Curse, I think of a lot, or any of those
Tomas Franzese 01:56:11 Yes.
Max Roberts 01:56:13 uh asymmetrical like Nintendo Land, like the the mushroom toad hide and seek game, like you can't do that without a dual screen experience.
Tomas Franzese 01:56:18 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 01:56:20 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:56:21 I love yeah, We Party You is one of my favorite game titles.
Max Roberts 01:56:24 Yes.
Max Roberts 01:56:25 It's a great game and also super expensive.
Max Roberts 01:56:27 We both Wii parties are great and expensive.
Tomas Franzese 01:56:28 Yes.
Max Roberts 01:56:32 Um it's a it's a hard time out there to be a good Wii Party game.
Tomas Franzese 01:56:32 Yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:56:35 They should do a switch party.
Max Roberts 01:56:36 Anyway.
Tomas Franzese 01:56:37 I'm surprised they haven't brought that back.
Max Roberts 01:56:38 It's called it's called Everybody Wantu Switch.
Tomas Franzese 01:56:42 Oh d you're right.
Tomas Franzese 01:56:43 Yeah, that is oh god.
Tomas Franzese 01:56:47 What did I ask for?
Max Roberts 01:56:47 I um
Tomas Franzese 01:56:48 Oh no, yeah.
Max Roberts 01:56:49 Every year I get together with Logan and Mike and um and another and um um another guy Grant and and then sometimes Mario comes out with us.
Max Roberts 01:56:58 But anyway, we always get each other
Max Roberts 01:57:00 gifts and usually they're jokey gifts and uh two years ago uh for five bucks a pop thanks best spy I got everybody one two switch for everybody
Max Roberts 01:57:11 This is horrific purchase for everyone.
Tomas Franzese 01:57:12 Nice.
Max Roberts 01:57:13 I was just like, here you go.
Max Roberts 01:57:15 Now put on your horse hat and let's play.
Max Roberts 01:57:22 Oh well, I think that does it though, Tomas.
Max Roberts 01:57:26 Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Max Roberts 01:57:28 This was an absolute blast, and I hope it's not another four years until I have you back on.
Tomas Franzese 01:57:34 Yeah, no, I mean I'm I'm free, so next time, uh
Tomas Franzese 01:57:38 Uh Microsoft sh steps on a rake.
Tomas Franzese 01:57:40 Feel free to feel free to call.
Tomas Franzese 01:57:43 They seem to they're laying them out.
Tomas Franzese 01:57:45 So
Max Roberts 01:57:46 Well, if that happens, it might become a regular just another show, like just here it's time for Xbox Breakdown with Tobas.
Tomas Franzese 01:57:50 Yeah.
Max Roberts 01:57:53 Um
Tomas Franzese 01:57:53 Yep.
Max Roberts 01:57:54 The the find folks can go find you over at Polygon on the weekend, sometimes during the week, but on the weekend.
Max Roberts 01:58:00 You can check out polygon.
Max Roberts 01:58:02 com or over at remastered.
Max Roberts 01:58:04 blog and sign up for the old newsletter.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:06 Yes.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:07 Subscri yeah, completely free.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:09 I have a kof ko-fi.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:11 Uh, but the newsletter is completely free right now, so please subscribe.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:15 You'll just get it every uh Thursday morning, 11 a.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:18 m.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:19 Eastern.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:19 So, uh, yeah.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:21 Thank you.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:21 If you if you've listened this far, I think you'd like the newsletter.
Tomas Franzese 01:58:24 So yeah.
Max Roberts 01:58:26 You would.
Max Roberts 01:58:26 I can guarantee it, you know, like the old uh
Max Roberts 01:58:30 Men's Warehouse, I guarantee it.
Max Roberts 01:58:32 Um or podcast beyond if you really listened back in those days.
Max Roberts 01:58:36 But go check out Remastered.
Max Roberts 01:58:38 It's it's wonderful.
Max Roberts 01:58:39 Um if you would like to check out links to anything we talked about.
Max Roberts 01:58:43 Which is a lot of stuff today.
Max Roberts 01:58:45 Check out your podcast player, or you can head over to maxfrequency.
Max Roberts 01:58:48 net forward slash MFP slash fifty-five.
Max Roberts 01:58:51 You'll find all the links that we talked about.
Max Roberts 01:58:53 If you'd like to listen to my other show, Chapter Select, uh you may do so over on the blog or chapterselect.
Max Roberts 01:59:00 com.
Max Roberts 01:59:01 Tomas has been on a couple episodes.
Max Roberts 01:59:03 The Wii U with color splash.
Max Roberts 01:59:05 And the 3DS with Pokemon X and Y.
Max Roberts 01:59:07 So you can go check out those episodes and seasons.
Max Roberts 01:59:10 I promise Castlevania is coming.
Max Roberts 01:59:12 I'm playing Rondo of Blood on my PSP, uh, which is right here within arm's reach.
Max Roberts 01:59:18 So
Max Roberts 01:59:20 I promise it's in production.
Max Roberts 01:59:21 There will be more episodes.
Max Roberts 01:59:23 The Sons of Sparta one is almost done in the editing bay, too.
Max Roberts 01:59:26 So everyone go check those shows out.
Max Roberts 01:59:30 But until next time, adios.